Glow plug replacement and difficult starting

Hymerbell

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Apr 2, 2014
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Having trouble starting...2004 Ducato 2.8 JTD ....have to keep key turned and foot on accelerator for it to start. tonyidle who seems to know a thing or two has suggested glow plugs....are these more likely to be at fault in the cold....I’m in Italy and 28 degrees...of course glow plugs could have nothing to do with ambient temperate but just thought I would show my ignorance. Been to a couple of garages but as Iah noa speako Italiano its a bit difficult...glowa pluga maybe...is it a big job ? Any help especially anyone who knows a good mechanic in Tuscany, Umbria Siena, Cortona or even Calabria or Puglia would be much a appreciated...☹️
 
It's doubtful all the plugs will fail at the same time. More likely the relay/module has failed.
Glow plugs work on engine temperature so even in a warm climate they should still work but maybe only briefly.
 
Penso che i riscaldatori della spina di bagliore hanno fallito. Potete provarli?
" I think the glow plug heaters have failed .Can you test them ?

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Or maybe slight air leak in fuel system meaning you have to crank the engine for a while to build fuel pressure ?

Sorry , but i would tend to agree .
If a glow plug had failed it should still start relatively easy , in that ambient temperature . I would imagine all 4 would cause a problem , but i have never heard of that happening anywhere , so i also doubt that's the cause unless it is the control unit . A test lamp should prove that one way or the other . Far more likely an air leak in the fuel line .
Do you emit a lot of white smoke on start .
 
One thought , do you even have glow plugs .

I have a 2000 , 2.8 tdi , with flame start . Basically a blow torch on the induction pipe , just short of the intake manifold .
 
The 2004 Ducato 244 2.8 JTD we had use a Flame Start system not glowplugs.

My 2008 did come to think of it. I hadn't realised he was somewhere warm although I'd still check the cold start system. Air leakage won't affect a common rail system unless it's pretty dramatic. Past experience with conventional heater plugs is that starting gets harder as they fail one by one until when only one or two are left at which point a lot of misfiring occurs as it starts.
 
One thought , do you even have glow plugs .

I have a 2000 , 2.8 tdi , with flame start . Basically a blow torch on the induction pipe , just short of the intake manifold .
Actually I’m not sure I have....his do I find out ?
 
Penso che i riscaldatori della spina di bagliore hanno fallito. Potete provarli?
" I think the glow plug heaters have failed .Can you test them ?
If I could find a garage in Italy that was interested I would learn fluent Italian but they just shrugg and suggest another garage....I’m almost tempted to call out emergency services who will presumably take me to a garage who will HAVE to sort it out...
 
Sorry , but i would tend to agree .
If a glow plug had failed it should still start relatively easy , in that ambient temperature . I would imagine all 4 would cause a problem , but i have never heard of that happening anywhere , so i also doubt that's the cause unless it is the control unit . A test lamp should prove that one way or the other . Far more likely an air leak in the fuel line .
Do you emit a lot of white smoke on start .
Nope...no white smoke....the exhaust looks quite sooty though...have run for 2 mins at max revs in 3rd gear in case it’s the EGR or something....but didn’t help
 
Hi

The flame start in a 2.8 jtd should only be triggered below about 3 degrees centigrade. So if it is 28 you can discount it.

If this is a new thing, will it only start will applied accelerarot ? That's odd.

One injector on these can have wiring issues , Also the Tdc sensor on The camshaft can move, and give simar syptoms.

Fuel pressure sounds a likely cause. Any sign of leaks ?

A plug in to a good code reader would help

Daniel.
 
Hi

The flame start in a 2.8 jtd should only be triggered below about 3 degrees centigrade. So if it is 28 you can discount it.

If this is a new thing, will it only start will applied accelerarot ? That's odd.

One injector on these can have wiring issues , Also the Tdc sensor on The camshaft can move, and give simar syptoms.

Fuel pressure sounds a likely cause. Any sign of leaks ?

A plug in to a good code reader would help

Daniel.
Yes I’d give up my Banner Batteries for a garage with a good code reader....unfortunately most garages even though they have a great big FIAT specialist on their logo just look at me as though I had a Bugatti Veyron ☹️
 
Sorry , but i would tend to agree .
If a glow plug had failed it should still start relatively easy , in that ambient temperature . I would imagine all 4 would cause a problem , but i have never heard of that happening anywhere , so i also doubt that's the cause unless it is the control unit . A test lamp should prove that one way or the other . Far more likely an air leak in the fuel line .
Do you emit a lot of white smoke on start .
And I would disagree......
The old mechanical injector pump and lift pump engine possibly would suffer fuel 'back' drainage but as the JTD engine is common rail injection it will have a high pressure electric pump and will be pressurised long before the key is turned to start.

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So....to sum up...what is wrong with it and what should I do ? 😥
 
I’ve just seen how many typos in my last post ....

Will it start without any throttle pedal at all ?

When you put the ignition on (lights up on the dash) without starting the engine can you hear the pump in the fuel tank running ? you should hear it humming down in front of left hand cab seat.

I would look at the camshaft sensor as it can cause your symptoms link here :https://www.picoauto.com/library/case-studies/2004-fiat-ducato-2-8-jtd-poor-starting

Hard to know without seeing / hearing it and Hands on , and assume it was a recent issue and has always been ok.

Daniel
 
If a glow plug had failed it should still start relatively easy , in that ambient temperature . I would imagine all 4 would cause a problem
When I lost one glow plug here where I live you knew straight away. With a second not heating correctly it was a hell of a job to start.
If left overnight & even in the temperatures we have here , no glow plugs mean it will rarely ever start.
Flame start is different to glow plugs in that it is basically direct injection & all you are doing is warming the intake air to make starting easier.
Glow plugs mean the engine is indirect injection & will rarely start if they do not operate.
 
A couple of different experiences.....

My 300TDi Landrover will start in anything but the coldest weather without the glowplugs.

My Nissan Pathfinder has 4.7v glowplugs and for some reason when the battery gets flat all of them fail at the same time! Then the engine will not start no matter how warm the weather is.

Easy to meter the glowplugs when you find them. Open circuit from top of plug to earth means they are dead and need replacing. About £40 for a set.
 
Actually I’m not sure I have....his do I find out ?

The link sent by Two on Tour , photo 2 , is exactly what your looking for . Right at the back of the engine , peaking over the top , you will see a big aluminium box , That's your intake collector , It's fed by a 2-3" ally pipe from your intercooler at the front . On top of that pipe just before the pipe enters the collector , there is what looks like a sensor . That's your flame start . It will have a fuel supply , plus electric connection .
Air leakage won't affect a common rail system unless it's pretty dramatic.
a high pressure electric pump and will be pressurised long before the key is turned to start.

Oh really . Sorry guys , i didn't know that . I stand corrected . This is the reason i went for a tdi . I'm much more alof with them .
Have a look at this that I posted earlier in the thread, and if you have not got that then look for glow plugs in the head with a cable linked between the glowplug heads.


Good one .
I'd doubt you have an EGR either

i'm afraid it's possible with a jtd , but i wouldn't know where to look . I know a few on here have got jtd's and don't have them fitted , but i would assume it has until proved wrong . Another reason i went for a tdi . Either way , the op would be signaling a yellow engine warning light , if it was at fault . However , when the egr in my small van went down , it didn't affect starting .

flame start in a 2.8 jtd should only be triggered below about 3 degrees centigrade.

Okay , i have to own up here . This is a new system to me , so i didn't know that , my car has glow plugs . So that means it's unlikely i've ever used mine for start up . Thanks for the heads up .

Also the Tdc sensor
Nope...no white smoke..

Now that is interesting . As it's suggesting fuel is not getting through in the first place . Like i said , even with a glow plug shot , it should still start relatively easy , however there will be a cloud of white smoke , unburnt diesel . If your not getting this cloud , this could be indicating , fuel is not entering the combustion chamber in the first place . Now this is the reason i went for a tdi , and where i luck out . Jtd's are full of sensors , horrible little thing's , as they can go wrong themselves , and are more likely too , throwing up confusing problems for the unsuspecting owner . As danielf , has suggested one of these is a tdc . This sensor is the reason ecu equipped engines do not start as well as tdi . My own tdi , starts within one rotation of the cam/crank , i can't remember which , suffice to say , instantly . An electronic engine won't , and this sensor is the reason . If i remember correctly , but don't quote me on this because i'm not even close to speed with these systems , the sensor has to see two full rotations of the cam/ crank before it will release any fuel to be burned . The other problem with sensors is , it may not even be the sensor itself . It could be the electric supply to the dam thing , and knowing how bad dukes suffer from earthing issues , that's where i would start .
However , this is where i have to bow out , i have no idea where this sensor will be , or even what it looks like . Tdc refers to top dead center , normally associated with timing . So if i were to hazard a guess it will be on the top of the engine somewhere . Normally , there will be no wiring in the rocker/cylinder head , so look for wiring in that area , and follow it . Maybe someone else can take this one further .

Edit , one final thought , this could also suggest the reason why even in the climate you find yourself in , you appear to have a cold starting issue .

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Glow plugs mean the engine is indirect injection & will rarely start if they do not operate.

Have to disagree there . My 25 year old Citroen is direct injection , and has glow plugs . Even with a plug out , it will still start , plus i've had a few heavy haulers again with glow plugs , all direct injection . Indirect fuel systems are the new kiddy on the block , as i would suggest is flame start . Glow plugs have always produced starting issues , but they have always started , beit in thick clouds of smoke . I hate to think what it did to starter motors or batteries , but those days have gone now , thank god . A quick fix is ether , the likes of cold start , or easy start , makes it easy on such bits , but not for the engine itself .
Flame start , or glow plug , the idea is simple . Heat the air before it enters the combustion chamber , as diesel explodes easier in a warm environment .
 

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