Getting ready to change to Lithium and need some advice (5 Viewers)

Dec 31, 2010
1,293
2,366
Sunny South Shields
Funster No
14,797
MH
Malibu I500 A Class
Exp
Since 2010
Works the same as most other EBL, the way yours is wired the split charge relay is in parallel with the B2B effectively shorting out the B2B making the B2B pointless.

I suspect that it was an easy way of fitting the B2B which is needed for the smart alternator.

I'm fairly sure you will get a better charge rate if you wire it correctly. All you need to do is disconnect the two wires from the starter battery input and connect them together.
I get exactly 25amps when watching the smartshunt on the victron connect app when I start the van so I am receiving the full output 👍🏻
 
Dec 31, 2010
1,293
2,366
Sunny South Shields
Funster No
14,797
MH
Malibu I500 A Class
Exp
Since 2010
You should be careful about copying this. Wiring as in that diagram will only work if the split charge relay inside the EBL has been disabled. Since there was already a B2B in place, it looks like the split charge relay was disabled in the EBL242-1. However in the EBL29 the split charge relay will be working, and you need to do something about that.

There are various options. The simplest is to remove the large (50A?) fuse in the wire from the starter battery to the EBL SB input. Then wire the B2B between the Starter battery and Leisure battery with new wiring. That's how you would have to wire a high power (60A) B2B.

Since the B2B is only 30A, the existing wiring is adequate. As Lenny HB said in post #12, disconnect the wire from the EBL SB input, and connect it to the B2B SB input. Run a new wire from the B2B Leisure Battery output to the EBL Starter Battery (SB) input. The split charge relay will still operate as before, but it will be connecting the B2B output to the Leisure Battery (not the alternator output as before).
Don't know if this has any affect on the the way my EBL is wired?


Screenshot_20220512_070910.jpg
 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
Since the B2B is only 30A, the existing wiring is adequate. As Lenny HB said in post #12, disconnect the wire from the EBL SB input, and connect it to the B2B SB input. Run a new wire from the B2B Leisure Battery output to the EBL Starter Battery (SB) input. The split charge relay will still operate as before, but it will be connecting the B2B output to the Leisure Battery (not the alternator output as before).
Now I am even more confused. My original post used the layout you suggest, which is shown as an option in Voltronic's instructions, although it suggests cutting the SB input cable and installing the cut ends into the B2B rather than adding a new cable. But, for the reasons Lenny HB gives in post #5, he is suggesting that I should avoid the EBL split charge relay altogether by wiring the B2B output straight to the leisure batteries. His post #12 recommends that layout, not the one you are suggesting.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Lenny HB

LIFE MEMBER
Oct 18, 2007
36,958
79,345
On the coast in West Sussex
Funster No
658
MH
Hymer B678 Dynamic Line
Exp
Since 2008 & many years tugging
Now I am even more confused. My original post used the layout you suggest, which is shown as an option in Voltronic's instructions, although it suggests cutting the SB input cable and installing the cut ends into the B2B rather than adding a new cable. But, for the reasons Lenny HB gives in post #5, he is suggesting that I should avoid the EBL split charge relay altogether by wiring the B2B output straight to the leisure batteries. His post #12 recommends that layout, not the one you are suggesting.
I think we have just established that Dave's EBL does not have a split charge relay. Yours does so you can't wire it that way.
 
Dec 31, 2010
1,293
2,366
Sunny South Shields
Funster No
14,797
MH
Malibu I500 A Class
Exp
Since 2010
Now I am even more confused. My original post used the layout you suggest, which is shown as an option in Voltronic's instructions, although it suggests cutting the SB input cable and installing the cut ends into the B2B rather than adding a new cable. But, for the reasons Lenny HB gives in post #5, he is suggesting that I should avoid the EBL split charge relay altogether by wiring the B2B output straight to the leisure batteries. His post #12 recommends that layout, not the one you are suggesting.
Peter I feel for you so many variables 🤯🤯🤯😀

PS I have 2 gels for sale 😜

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Apr 27, 2016
4,498
4,810
Manchester
Funster No
42,762
MH
A class Hymer
Exp
Since the 80s
Don't know if this has any affect on the the way my EBL is wired?
Yes, the 'cutoff relay' is what Schaudt call a split charge relay. And they call a B2B a 'booster'. So that translates as no split charge relay fitted due to B2B being fitted. So there's no need to worry about disabling the split charge relay.

In most EBLs the split charge relay is separate from the circuit board, and is fairly easy to remove/disable if you are OK at that kind of thing. But most people prefer to disable it by rearranging the wiring rather than hacking the internals of the EBL.
 

Hoovie

Free Member
May 16, 2021
375
454
Funster No
81,251
MH
Autotrail
schaudt (spelling? Makers of EBL anyway) produce some very clear wiring diagrams of how to add one of their WA Boosters to an existing EBL. Given that their WA Booster is, as autorouter says, simply a B2B, all you need to really do if fitting a different make of B2B to an EBL equipped van is follow that same instruction and recommendations (ref cable size for ratings, etc), and it is a simple job.
 
Apr 27, 2016
4,498
4,810
Manchester
Funster No
42,762
MH
A class Hymer
Exp
Since the 80s
Now I am even more confused. My original post used the layout you suggest, which is shown as an option in Voltronic's instructions, although it suggests cutting the SB input cable and installing the cut ends into the B2B rather than adding a new cable. But, for the reasons @Lenny HB gives in post #5, he is suggesting that I should avoid the EBL split charge relay altogether by wiring the B2B output straight to the leisure batteries. His post #12 recommends that layout, not the one you are suggesting.
Yes you're right, I didn't read Lenny HB's posts properly.

If you are wiring directly between the batteries, then you need to disable the split charge relay. That can be done by removing/cutting the wire from the starter battery to the EBL SB input.

If you've removed that connection, you then have a useless wire going all the way back to the starter battery. You might as well use that wire for the B2B starter battery input, to save you running a new wire. If it's thick enough that is. For a 30A B2B it will be fine, but if you were using a 60A B2B it might not be thick enough.

Then connect the B2B output, either direct to the leisure battery as Lenny HB suggests, or to the EBL SB input if you think the split charge relay contacts aren't carboned up enough to be a problem.

Note that if you wire directly between the batteries, the split charge relay won't actually be disabled, it will still click on and off when the engine starts and stops. But since there's now nothing connected to its input, it won't have any effect.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
Yes you're right, I didn't read Lenny HB's posts properly.

If you are wiring directly between the batteries, then you need to disable the split charge relay. That can be done by removing/cutting the wire from the starter battery to the EBL SB input.

If you've removed that connection, you then have a useless wire going all the way back to the starter battery. You might as well use that wire for the B2B starter battery input, to save you running a new wire. If it's thick enough that is. For a 30A B2B it will be fine, but if you were using a 60A B2B it might not be thick enough.

Then connect the B2B output, either direct to the leisure battery as Lenny HB suggests, or to the EBL SB input if you think the split charge relay contacts aren't carboned up enough to be a problem.

Note that if you wire directly between the batteries, the split charge relay won't actually be disabled, it will still click on and off when the engine starts and stops. But since there's now nothing connected to its input, it won't have any effect.
I will be using the existing cable from the starter battery which I will remove from the EBL altogether and connect it to the input of the B2B. The cable is 16mm It is more than enough for the Votronic 30A B2B. I will be connecting it direct to the leisure batteries to remove the risk of the existing relay being carboned up. Just got to work out how now.

If the 30A B2B proves to be too small for our needs (which I doubt) I will replace it with the votronic 50A VCC model. Votronic states in their instructions that I can use 16mm for that with the lengths of cable I have, which are quite short. The reason I did not go straight for the 50A version is because they are rarer than hens teeth at the moment. A B2B in the hand is worth two in the bush. And it was a lot cheaper
 
Apr 27, 2016
4,498
4,810
Manchester
Funster No
42,762
MH
A class Hymer
Exp
Since the 80s
You asked at the beginning of the thread what to disconnect. In addition to the 50A fuse at the starter battery there is a 20A one for the fridge supply to the EBL. This should be disconnected also.
I have a feeling that the fridge wire is also what the EBL uses to trickle charge the starter battery ( Lenny?) So I think if that is reconnected afterwards then the starter battery wilk still get a small charge.
I can't see any reason to disconnect that 20A fuse for the 12V fridge heater element. It's wired independently from the split charge circuit, and should just continue working, from the alternator/starter battery via the fridge relay, without causing any problems.

That fridge wire is also used as suggested for trickle-charging the starter battery, either from the mains charger or the solar controller second battery output connected to pin 2 of the 3-way connector.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Dec 17, 2016
672
606
Malvern
Funster No
46,488
MH
Hymer B525 2006 A cl
Exp
2012
But if I disconnect the cable to the starter battery from the EBL and attach it to the B2B how can the EBL get the solar charge to the cab battery? Could I take the the cable from the regulator and attach it to starter battery positive on the B2B? Only a small cable and I thing it could share the connection.

But, thinking about it again (always dangerous), how can the EBL charge the starter battery when on EHU if there is no connection between them?
The connection on block 2 pin 1 (in my EBL 101) is the positive supply from the starter battery to the EBL which then feeds the refrigerator via block 1. If you piggy back the solar controller trickle charge connection to this it will supply the starter battery. There will be a 20A fuse at the starter battery end which you can disconnect whilst working on it.
Hope that makes sense?
Not sure about the 239V supply to the starter battery but suspect that it uses the same route through the EBL.

Edit - hadn't seen the replies this morning from Lenny and autorouter.
I was only suggesting disconnecting the fridge wire whilst you were working on the system, not permanently.
 
Last edited:
Apr 27, 2016
4,498
4,810
Manchester
Funster No
42,762
MH
A class Hymer
Exp
Since the 80s
The connection on block 2 pin 1 (in my EBL 101) is the positive supply from the starter battery to the EBL which then feeds the refrigerator via block 1. If you piggy back the solar controller trickle charge connection to this it will supply the starter battery. There will be a 20A fuse at the starter battery end which you can disconnect whilst working on it.
Some EBLs (For example 29 and 101 but not 119) have an unused connection on Pin2 of the 3-way (Solar) connector that also goes to the starter battery via that wire. It can be a bit easier to connect that way, but your method using the piggy back onto Block 2 Pin 1 works for all EBLs.
 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
The connection on block 2 pin 1 (in my EBL 101) is the positive supply from the starter battery to the EBL which then feeds the refrigerator via block 1. If you piggy back the solar controller trickle charge connection to this it will supply the starter battery. There will be a 20A fuse at the starter battery end which you can disconnect whilst working on it.
Hope that makes sense?
Not sure about the 239V supply to the starter battery but suspect that it uses the same route through the EBL.

Edit - hadn't seen the replies this morning from Lenny and autorouter.
I was only suggesting disconnecting the fridge wire whilst you were working on the system, not permanently.
I will pull as many fuses as I think is necessary and that 20A one is one I will. Just in case something shorts when I am working on it.

Some EBLs (For example 29 and 101 but not 119) have an unused connection on Pin2 of the 3-way (Solar) connector that also goes to the starter battery via that wire. It can be a bit easier to connect that way, but your method using the piggy back onto Block 2 Pin 1 works for all EBLs.
I will be using the connector cable I got with my Schaudt solar controller which piggy backs the starter battery trickle charge onto Pin 1 of Block 2 labelled "+ starter battery for refrigerator" and refers to the 20A external fuse. Worked before so I can't see why it wouldn't work with the new solar controller.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Apr 17, 2022
2
1
Cadwell Park Circuit, Cawkwell, Louth, UK
Funster No
88,131
MH
burstner argos
late to the party i know , just speed read the posts, as i’m doing pretty much exactly the same setup
I’ve two 200ah lithium on order
and have just fitted 2 x130w flexible panels to votronic 250 duo
through EBL 220, seems to work great 6 to 9 amps. So i can see i will need to put a isolation switch on it or batteries will end up sitting at 100% when i’m not using the van
ive also got a votronic B2B 1212-50 which i haven’t got fitted yet as was wondering best method , if my understanding is correct it should be wired independent to the EBL
but can i splice a second brown Y wire into the EBL as with the solar controller to give amp reading on the vans display?
Both of the above have settings for lithium But what are people doing about the 240v mains charging ? if i just leave the EBL on the gel setting will that be ok or should i disable it ? my batteries are coming with a 60 amp charger
is there a way to use this and still read the state of charger on my display?
thanks in advance bob
 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
late to the party i know , just speed read the posts, as i’m doing pretty much exactly the same setup
I’ve two 200ah lithium on order
and have just fitted 2 x130w flexible panels to votronic 250 duo
through EBL 220, seems to work great 6 to 9 amps. So i can see i will need to put a isolation switch on it or batteries will end up sitting at 100% when i’m not using the van
ive also got a votronic B2B 1212-50 which i haven’t got fitted yet as was wondering best method , if my understanding is correct it should be wired independent to the EBL
but can i splice a second brown Y wire into the EBL as with the solar controller to give amp reading on the vans display?
Both of the above have settings for lithium But what are people doing about the 240v mains charging ? if i just leave the EBL on the gel setting will that be ok or should i disable it ? my batteries are coming with a 60 amp charger
is there a way to use this and still read the state of charger on my display?
thanks in advance bob
I am not sure that I am capable of offering technical guidance because I started this thread to get some of that myself.

As far as knowing what is happening current and voltage wise it is not just the amount that is going in that you need to monitor but also the amount going out. In reality you need to know the net effect of both inputs and outputs. For that reason I would recommend getting a Victron BMV700 or its newer version. Tells you what the net figures are. Had the 700 version for over 6 years and would not be without it.
 
Jun 24, 2019
274
562
Pershore, Worcestershire, UK
Funster No
61,889
MH
A Class Frankia
Exp
2019
I am a member of the Frankia owners group and this discussion regarding KS Energy batteries and charge settings has been had before... i have copied here an answer from one of our members who has installed them as have a few others... here are his observations...

"ok - so the short answer is I have literally just replaced my old lead acid batteries with the lithium ones and not (yet) updated the charging from engine alternator, battery charger or solar and although it might not be absolutely optimum it works absolutely fine (so far) - if anything my batteries could be charged far faster from all chargers if I upgraded them to newer Lithium optimised ones, but they still charge nicely just as my old LA ones would have done - up to 30 amps from alternator and up to 18amps from battery charger and my 200w solar set up through the Schaudt LR1218 works just as it did with my LA batteries.
I installed a Victron BMV712 smart monitor and shunt into the system which has improved monitoring as my 1.6kw inverter had been installed direct to the batteries so draw from that doesn’t show on the DT220 display.
I do agree that batteries can be charged faster by installing a Lithium optimised alternator battery to battery charger, EHU battery charger and MPPT solar charger plus the upgraded for higher current wiring - but the system works well as is just now.
We tend to be mostly off grid so my priorities will be to install another 200w of solar and an MPPT solar controller next, then possibly (or maybe not) a Lithium optimised B2B charger to optimise alternator charging, but I recognise that increasing out put from the alternator will 1) shorten its life and 2) require new thicker wiring, so I might just leave this as is.
I do have the later ELB 220-2 electroblock and at the advice of KS Energy have left it on the LA setting. I have the LR1218 solar regulator and have left that as is too.
I found the guys at KS Energy very helpful and also spoke to other Frankia owners who have just done a like for like swap out - the KS Energy BMS is optimised to mirror LA charge parameters and the supplied Bluetooth app allows great and direct battery monitoring along with the Victron Smart monitor.
The significant upside is I now have significant power for everything sitting there with constant voltages even at high inverter loads so I just don’t need to worry about power any more
😊
👍🏻
"

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Apr 27, 2016
4,498
4,810
Manchester
Funster No
42,762
MH
A class Hymer
Exp
Since the 80s
ive also got a votronic B2B 1212-50 which i haven’t got fitted yet as was wondering best method , if my understanding is correct it should be wired independent to the EBL
but can i splice a second brown Y wire into the EBL as with the solar controller to give amp reading on the vans display?
Both of the above have settings for lithium But what are people doing about the 240v mains charging ? if i just leave the EBL on the gel setting will that be ok or should i disable it ? my batteries are coming with a 60 amp charger
is there a way to use this and still read the state of charger on my display?
The EBL is not really designed for high amps into or out of the front panel connectors - it's good for its original purpose, but the terminals won't take more than about 18A. So solar controllers, mains chargers etc that are higher power need to bypass it. That means they also bypass the internal shunt, which measures the amps in and out of the battery. So the display battery state of charge is wrong. However the battery voltages will be accurate.

Schaudt, who make the EBL, also make a High Current Module (HSM01) which adds on to the EBL and allows high current solar, B2B and mains charging. However it is not often used because it is usual to just bypass the EBL, and add a separate battery monitor like the Victron BMV 712 or SmartShunt.

A smaller B2B, ay 30A, could be channelled through the EBL internals, but a larger 60A B2B or a 60A charger is best wired independently,through a battery monitor if you want.
 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
Thanks to everybody who has contributed to the advice given on this thread. I think I should let you all know the outcome of all that advice.

The way that I am going to fit and connect the batteries, B2B and Solar regulator has changed considerably from that set out in my original post. Instead of running them via the EBL I am now installing them independently, so that means more cables to the batteries and the need to fit a fused busbar. The existing wiring to and from the EBL and batteries has always been a bit of a rats nest and I am also trying to tidy it up as best as I can. So a couple of days work has turned out to be a bit longer I suspect, by the time I have got all the new bits delivered. And the cost has increased considerably! Seems it is more time consuming and expensive to do a proper job than an "adequate" one. Who would guess that :doh: ::bigsmile:

The good news is that despite my worries the Votronic solar controller arrived from Germany within 4 working days even though I was not able to track it!

So yesterday I plucked up the courage to start the installation. All the fuses were pulled and the stuff switched off as well as unplugging the EHU. Out came the old batteries (they were bloody heavy!) and the existing solar controller. The solar controller and B2B are now fitted in their new places and I have started to wire them in. Getting the main feed from the starter battery detached from the EBL and fitted to the B2B was time consuming because I had to cut into and remove some of the plastic conduit it was in so that I could reroute.

Once I had the old stuff out I could plan the positions of the new staff and the routes for the new cables and where the busbar and new kill switch goes. I have ordered made up leads to my dimensions with the connectors already fitted for all the heavier cables (10mm2, 16mm2 and 25mm2), because I do not have the equipment or knowledge to do that myself. Today I will carry on installing and wiring where I can, but I won't be able to do too much until the cables and fuses arrive. So a rest for a couple of days and then restart on Wednesday hopefully.

Only photo I have at the moment is one of part of the existing rats nest before I started. Not sure I will be able to improve on it much but I want to make sure that the new heavier load bearing cables are properly fitted in sensible runs.

20220514_085147.jpg


I will update later in the week on progress and maybe some more photos.
 
Aug 11, 2019
299
947
North Pembrokeshire
Funster No
63,171
MH
Knaus Sun TI 700
Exp
A newbie
Thanks Peter. Really interesting thread. I went through a similar process last year. And arrived at the same conclusion as you. I am woefully under-qualified to give advice on electrical matters, and therefore don’t, but can point out what has worked for me.
I am currently in the 5th week of a wander around Spain and Portugal. So far, the new system has been brilliant. Game changer has been the Votronic 3326 50A B2B. We move on every couple days and no matter the matter the weather we always arrive with full batteries. This time of year solar makes life easy.
Looking forward to seeing photos of the completed installation.
 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
schaudt (spelling? Makers of EBL anyway) produce some very clear wiring diagrams of how to add one of their WA Boosters to an existing EBL. Given that their WA Booster is, as autorouter says, simply a B2B, all you need to really do if fitting a different make of B2B to an EBL equipped van is follow that same instruction and recommendations (ref cable size for ratings, etc), and it is a simple job.
As far as I am concerned the phrase "very clear wiring diagram" is an oxymoron :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: .

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
I am thinking of how I can keep the cab battery charged with an external charger whilst working on the habitation electrics. I do not want the the battery to get low enough to possibly trigger the airbag ECU problem, which I had a couple of years ago. Can anybody tell me where the jump start connector is located in the engine bay on the Fiat/Iveco 3 litre engine please?
 
OP
peterc10
Jul 5, 2013
10,407
11,358
Tunbridge Wells
Funster No
26,797
MH
A class
Exp
Since 2013
The afternoon I finished installing the new 2 new KS Energy 102Ah lithiums and new Votronic B2B and solar controller. I could not plan it in detail until I got all the old stuff stripped out and could see what I was left with. After that I ordered the cables, fuses. busbar and other bits and pieces and had to wait for them to be delivered. I have installed it in the way recommended by most people on this thread so both the B2B and solar controller are wired directedly to the batteries rather than going through the EBL

Couple of pictures of what it looks like now I am afraid that the rats nest is still there as I did not want to move it too much in case the wires started to disconnect. Then I would be really lost as to what to do.

20220518_185433.jpg


20220518_163155.jpg


I have tested it as best as possible and it all seems to work. I have also tweaked a couple of the settings in the BMV700 as recommended by Victron for LiFePo batteries. I have disconnected the EHU and will see how it copes with just solar for a while. The KS Bluetooth app is a bit rudimentary and I can only look at one battery at a time. The result is that the the figures for the charge or discharge current it reports is only for that battery, not the both, so it is half of the correct figures. The figures on the BMV are about the same, but of course double for the current!

Again I would like to thank everybody who contributed to this thread. Without your advice I would have been lost.

Now I can say, loud and proud, that I am a true solarholic
 

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Top