Fitting a lithium battery (1 Viewer)

[gerry mcg]

Thanks for the offer, sods law I was up the west end on Monday and probably won't be back before starting this project.

If you want any photos or a chat, I'm happy to do so.
I'll DM you my number and you can WhatsApp me if you want.

What EBL do you have? (EBL119)? Working out how to disconnect the onboard split charge was the trickiest part of it!

 

[peterc10]

Working out how to disconnect the onboard split charge was the trickiest part of it!

The outputs of my B2B and new solar controller do not go through my EBL 29. Instead I have provided separate leads from them to the hab batteries via a fused busbar.

I also disconnected the main cab battery lead to my EBL and connected it to the B2B instead. Therefore there was no charge from the cab battery to the hab battery. That did not disable the EBL's split charger, but meant that it did nothing when it clicked on. My EBL has not got a LiFePo profile so, at the moment, I have taken out the EBL's 20A fuse for the charger. That still means that the fridge, D+ relays, and charging to the cab battery still work.

lorger I asked for and got a lot of good advice from this forum that really helped me to understand what was needed and how to fit it. Have a look at this thread and see if it helps you.

 

[lorger]

+1
I recommend the Votronic vcc1212-50 B2B.
Where are your Leisure batteries? Can you fit 200Ah underseat?

We have a service box on the knaus with room for two batteries, I will measure tonight to see if I could get a single higher powered battery in.

The outputs of my B2B and new solar controller do not go through my EBL 29. Instead I have provided separate leads from them to the hab batteries via a fused busbar.

I also disconnected the main cab battery lead to my EBL and connected it to the B2B instead. Therefore there was no charge from the cab battery to the hab battery. That did not disable the EBL's split charger, but meant that it did nothing when it clicked on. My EBL has not got a LiFePo profile so, at the moment, I have taken out the EBL's 20A fuse for the charger. That still means that the fridge, D+ relays, and charging to the cab battery still work.

lorger I asked for and got a lot of good advice from this forum that really helped me to understand what was needed and how to fit it. Have a look at this thread and see if it helps you.

Thanks Peter, I read through it yesterday and although I took a lot of info from it some of the stuff is hard to understand when your thick

Two things that I don't quite get, folk say they are by passing the onboard charger, does this mean you wire the battery from your solar controller direct to your electric system and the battery will now only charge via B2B or solar, or can you still use the mains.

With lithium do you need to switch off all charging to it when not in use, I've read some folk have a cut off switch or pull the fuse, does this mean I need to be able to disconnect power to it when not in use?

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[peterc10]

Thanks Peter, I read through it yesterday and although I took a lot of info from it some of the stuff is hard to understand when your thick

Two things that I don't quite get, folk say they are by passing the onboard charger, does this mean you wire the battery from your solar controller direct to your electric system and the battery will now only charge via B2B or solar, or can you still use the mains.

With lithium do you need to switch off all charging to it when not in use, I've read some folk have a cut off switch or pull the fuse, does this mean I need to be able to disconnect power to it when not in use?

I was totally confused at times, but once I got down to the practicalities of fitting the stuff it all seemed to fall into place.

You can still use the mains to charge the batteries but I have chosen not to at the moment because the EBL charger has no LiFePo profile. I will wait and see if the solar is good enough to keep the hab batteries maintained in the winter whilst it is laid up. So I am not going to switch off charging altogether. I have fitted a kill switch on the single lead to the hab batteries so I can isolate them from any charging if I need to.

It is essential in the winter to make sure you do not charge your Lithiums when their temperature is below zero. K&S's built in BMS is supposed to prevent that, but I wanted to adopt a belt and braces solution. One of the reasons that I chose Votronic rather than Victron kit is because both their B2B and solar controller have temperature gauges you can attach to the battery terminal and they stop charging when it gets near to zero if you use their LiFePo profiles. The EBL charger does not have that facility.

 

[gerry mcg]

The outputs of my B2B and new solar controller do not go through my EBL 29. Instead I have provided separate leads from them to the hab batteries via a fused busbar.

Likewise.
My B2B and victron solar controller go direct to the lithium battery, bypassing the EBL.

With the EBL119, one disables the EBL split charge system by removing the Starter battery power in cable from the back of the EBL.

I decided to add a dedicated victron mains charger with a lithium profile rather than use the gel setting on the EBL.
Wiring it in was straightforward and I used a WAGO connector block to utilise the existing EBL 240V supply and simply removed the charger fuse from the EBL to prevent the EBL from charging when on hookup and I wired the charger output to the B2B outputs

I added a victron Smartbatterysense to the lithium battery. That allows the creation of a ve.networking with the victron MPPT that you can set to prevent solar charging below a set temperature (e.g 5c)
The Votronic B2B requires a temperature sensor to be fitted to the leisure battery if you use a lithium charging profile.
The ks-energy battery has an onboard BMS with low temperature cutout as a second level failsafe

 

[Pausim]

+1 for the Votronic VCC 1212-50. I have it’s predecessor the 1212-45.

These models have special EBL settings so they can be wired through the EBL without disabling the split charge relay. This saves a lot of complications, the B2B can be powered by removing the existing engine battery 50A connection from the back of the EBL and powering the B2B with it instead. The output from the B2B is then connected to the EBL via the recently vacated connection on the back of the EBL.

Doing it this way avoids having to disable the EBL split charge connection that would otherwise cause an electrical loop, which must be avoided. I know this because 5 years ago I had a Hymer with an EBL and connected the B2B directly to the the battery and all sorts of strange voltages appeared in the system. I then reread the instructions and wired the B2B through the EBL and everything worked just fine thereafter.

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[gerry mcg]

Pausim , I initially attempted to wire the vcc1212-50 into the EBL as per the wiring diagram in the installation manual, but I found it difficult to understand the cabling and I found wiring direct to the battery and simply removing the EBL 12v power supply to disable the EBL119 split charge proved easier for me to understand and do

 

[peterc10]

Likewise.
My B2B and victron solar controller go direct to the lithium battery, bypassing the EBL.

With the EBL119, one disables the EBL split charge system by removing the Starter battery power in cable from the back of the EBL.

I decided to add a dedicated victron mains charger with a lithium profile rather than use the gel setting on the EBL.
Wiring it in was straightforward and I used a WAGO connector block to utilise the existing EBL 240V supply and simply removed the charger fuse from the EBL to prevent the EBL from charging when on hookup and I wired the charger output to the B2B outputs

I added a victron Smartbatterysense to the lithium battery. That allows the creation of a ve.networking with the victron MPPT that you can set to prevent solar charging below a set temperature (e.g 5c)
The Votronic B2B requires a temperature sensor to be fitted to the leisure battery if you use a lithium charging profile.
The ks-energy battery has an onboard BMS with low temperature cutout as a second level failsafe

I think I got the idea from you.

I didn't see any temperature sensor port on the Victron B2B or their solar controller when I was researching. Did I miss it?

I am looking to add a new mains charger. The Victron ones are cheaper than the equivalent Votronic unit, but, again I can't see a temperature sensor port on the Victron charger, as I want to monitor the temperature at the battery, not the charger. Just by being a charger it will be warmer than the battery I would have thought. Also it seems not to have a separate trickle charge for the cab battery. Or have I got all of that wrong? I was hoping to unplug the EBL and just use it as a 12v distribution board but I will still need it plugged in to provide a trickle charge to the cab battery

 

[gerry mcg]

I think I got the idea from you.

I didn't see any temperature sensor port on the Victron B2B or their solar controller when I was researching. Did I miss it?

I am looking to add a new mains charger. The Victron ones are cheaper than the equivalent Votronic unit, but, again I can't see a temperature sensor port on the Victron charger, as I want to monitor the temperature at the battery, not the charger. Just by being a charger it will be warmer than the battery I would have thought. Also it seems not to have a separate trickle charge for the cab battery. Or have I got all of that wrong? I was hoping to unplug the EBL and just use it as a 12v distribution board but I will still need it plugged in to provide a trickle charge to the cab battery

There is no temperature sensor port on the victron MPPT, rather the Smart solar MPPT, and Bluesmart ones without BT, But with v2 of the BT dongles connected to give BT app functionality can support VE.networking and this means they can pair wirelessly with the Victron smartbatterysense that is placed on the battery.
That way the Victron MPPT knows the battery temperature and you can set a low temperature cutoff in the MPPT with the app.
I don't think the victron B2B can support VE.networking, so they cannot pair to the Victron SBS

Yes, by adding in the victron mains charger and disabling the EBL charging circuit I lose mains trickle charging of the starter battery, however
I trickle charge the starter battery by using a VanBitz Battery Master

**edit**
Sorry I misread. I thought you were talking of victron B2B, not victron charger.
My Victron charger has BT and is compatible with VE.networking and therefore picks up the battery temperature from the SBS in the same way as the MPPT

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[WildBunch]

One of the many considerations when changing to Li & selecting a new Inverter to go with it, is the maximum permissible current draw from the Li battery as it will be far less than you can get from lead acid type batteries. My Li battery is 100 amps max. Also ideally all the kit, solar controller ,B2B & charger need to have a Li charging profile. However you may find that your existing charger can be set to suit to suit Li. Note I cant remember which is it AGM or Gel...someone will know.
There are lots of back threads to read that give loads of advise on this matter.

 

[peterc10]

One of the many considerations when changing to Li & selecting a new Inverter to go with it, is the maximum permissible current draw from the Li battery as it will be far less than you can get from lead acid type batteries. M

Surely you mean more? Try drawing 100amps out of a lead acid battery and it will not survive for long. .

 

[Pausim]

One of the many considerations when changing to Li & selecting a new Inverter to go with it, is the maximum permissible current draw from the Li battery as it will be far less than you can get from lead acid type batteries.

I would say quite the opposite. A lead acid engine battery might be able to deliver very short bursts of high amps but a lead acid leisure battery is not, they are designed for a steady slower and deeper discharge. LiFePO4 are much better at withstanding the heavy draw of an inverter.

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[gerry mcg]

I've got a victron phoenix 12/500 PSW inverter as well - that is for charging e-bikes and other small electrical items.
Helen doesn't own a hairdryer!!!

 

[bigtwin]

Surely you mean more? Try drawing 100amps out of a lead acid battery and it will not survive for long. .

It depends. Some lithium batteries output can be limited by the quality of the BMS fitted.

On our boat, we fitted 3 x 100Ah rather than two 150Ah batteries since both sizes had a maximum output of 100A. Consequently we can draw 300A from our three 100Ah batteries but would be limited to 200A from a pair of 150s.

Some BMS’ don’t even allow 100A.

Ian

 

[gerry mcg]

It depends. Some lithium batteries output can be limited by the quality of the BMS fitted.

On our boat, we fitted 3 x 100Ah rather than two 150Ah batteries since both sizes had a maximum output of 100A. Consequently we can draw 300A from our three 100Ah batteries but would be limited to 200A from a pair of 150s.

Some BMS’ don’t even allow 100A.

Ian

Ks-energy 200Ah seat Base battery has a 150A max discharge rate
150A@12v =1800W (with zero inefficiency)
* make sure you size inverter cables appropriately!

Product Selection Special Series

KS Energy special designer size lithium leisure storage batteries

www.ksenergy.co.uk

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[peterc10]

It depends. Some lithium batteries output can be limited by the quality of the BMS fitted.

On our boat, we fitted 3 x 100Ah rather than two 150Ah batteries since both sizes had a maximum output of 100A. Consequently we can draw 300A from our three 100Ah batteries but would be limited to 200A from a pair of 150s.

Some BMS’ don’t even allow 100A.

Ian

My 2 K&S batteries each allow 150A draw. So 300A. When I was comparing batteries between suppliers they all seemed to allow 100A to 150A draw.

 

[paddymcc]

It depends. Some lithium batteries output can be limited by the quality of the BMS fitted.

On our boat, we fitted 3 x 100Ah rather than two 150Ah batteries since both sizes had a maximum output of 100A. Consequently we can draw 300A from our three 100Ah batteries but would be limited to 200A from a pair of 150s.

Some BMS’ don’t even allow 100A.

Ian

The Roamer 230Ah underseat battery ( which may suit you lorger ) has a BMS that can cope with 250A. Currently I only have a 300W inverter so I'm not stressing it but I went for it so that I had the option of running a microwave at a later date. The van came with a microwave but we took it out as we rarely used it as we tend not to use hook-up,
I've not yet bought a mains charger with a lithium profile as the Votronic B2B and solar provide enough power to cover my needs. I'm not sure I will ever need one but Roamer have said that occasionally charging using the EBL on lead acid is fine. If I needed to use this I could put the 20Afuse back into the EBL

 

[lorger]

paddymcc i have a service locker so no need for under seat battery.

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[peterc10]

Sorry I misread. I thought you were talking of victron B2B, not victron charger.
My Victron charger has BT and is compatible with VE.networking and therefore picks up the battery temperature from the SBS in the same way as the MPPT

So if I bought a Victron charger what else would I need to buy to set up VE.networking and be able too pick up battery temperature and be able to access it? I already have a BMV700 that was bought in 2015. It seems to be working with my new set up. I did not think it has BT, but I maybe wrong. Would I need something else as well to be able to get it talking to the VE.networking? I just want to check how much it would all cost so I can compare it with the wired setup of the Votronic unit.

 

[paddymcc]

paddymcc i have a service locker so no need for under seat battery.

My Hymer has a service locker too and that's where I put it. Just having one battery with a good capacity made sense rather than 2 x110Ah. This means there is only the 4 cells to balance which is simpler. It in fact is a bit smaller volume overall than the lead acid I had before so there was a bit more room to fit fuses etc.

 

[Lenny HB]

I already have a BMV700 that was bought in 2015. It seems to be working with my new set up. I did not think it has BT

The Bluetooth module is sold separately it plugs into the back of the display.

VE.Direct Bluetooth Smart dongle

Using the VE.Direct to Bluetooth Smart dongle you can display your BMV or MPPT information on iOS and Android devices, using the VictronConnect app. View information wirelessly such as battery status and solar panel power, plus other useful data. The dongle is able to read data from all products...

www.intellitecmv.com

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[Bart]

I've been having some issues with my 12v system recently and discovered its down to my battery being knackered, we always said when we bought the van new 2 years ago we would change to lithium once this battery was dead, thought it would last longer than this.

I will be getting a local guy/family friend to do the work for me as I've no idea what I need and what to do, this guy was with the AA for 30 odd years and has built several quality vans for himself and others as a side business, he's took early retirement but still does a couple of days on projects. I've seen his vans and I have to say they are decent quality so quite happy to go with him.

I would like to have some info though so I have an idea what I'm looking for, our plan is to buy a KS Energy 125ah Lithium and have an inverter fitted. What and how would you guys recommend fitting, I currently have a 160w solar, battery master and 75/15 controller all fitted by vanbitz. The base vehicle is a 2020 fiat Ducato which I believe has a smart alternator but need to confirm this, we are very light users of electric and can currently survive a week or so in Scotland without EHU, however Lorraine would possibly like to use a hairdryer for a couple of minutes maybe every second day and now we have ebikes we might need to give them a small top up.

Would you recommend a second battery?
More solar?
B2B?
Size of invertor?

and anything else you can think of, just so I know what the guys talking about when we discuss it.

If you spend time in sunny places , like Europe then you will be by with lithium and more solar , but if you spend any time in the UK then for me it's always the B2B first of all over the solar.

 

[peterc10]

The Bluetooth module is sold separately it plugs into the back of the display.

VE.Direct Bluetooth Smart dongle

Using the VE.Direct to Bluetooth Smart dongle you can display your BMV or MPPT information on iOS and Android devices, using the VictronConnect app. View information wirelessly such as battery status and solar panel power, plus other useful data. The dongle is able to read data from all products...

www.intellitecmv.com

So to make it all work I would need one of those for my BMV, an SBS for the battery (or do I need one for each hab battery?), a smart charger and a Battery master?

 

[Lenny HB]

So to make it all work I would need one of those for my BMV, an SBS for the battery (or do I need one for each hab battery?), a smart charger and a Battery master?

I thought your batteries had built in Bluetooth monitors so you probably don't need the BMV, you have the Votronic dual output solar so you don't really need a Batterymaster.

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[peterc10]

I thought your batteries had built in Bluetooth monitors so you probably don't need the BMV, you have the Votronic dual output solar so you don't really need a Batterymaster.

Keep up Lenny.

I am exploring fitting a mains charger with a LiFePo profile if I find I need it. If I did I would want to unplug the EBL and use it just as a 12v distribution board. That would mean I would no longer get a trickle charge to the cab battery from the EBL, as I do at the moment. I am trying to choose between Voltronic or Victron. The Victron is cheaper but it needs more kit than just the charger.

I already have the BMV and am using it. I am trying to find out what more I would need if I chose Victron instead of Voltronic. It would be needed in winter when little or no solar so I want to make sure that I get a trickle charge to the cab battery, which the Victron, unlike the Voltronic, does not supply, hence the battery master. I also would want a charger that would monitor the temperature of the batteries so that it will not charge when it is too cold (belt and braces in case the BMS fails). Votronic does this by wire, so nothing more to buy. Victron does it wirelessly, which means I need to buy more stuff to link it together.

 

[Pausim]

Keep up Lenny.

I am exploring fitting a mains charger with a LiFePo profile if I find I need it. If I did I would want to unplug the EBL and use it just as a 12v distribution board. That would mean I would no longer get a trickle charge to the cab battery from the EBL, as I do at the moment. I am trying to choose between Voltronic or Victron. The Victron is cheaper but it needs more kit than just the charger.

Udo Lang at Schaudt advised me to leave the mains connected to the EBL so that it can continue to provide the trickle charge to the engine battery. You just need to remove the 20A charger fuse marked “internes Ladegerät”.

 

[gerry mcg]

peterc10
The BMV700 is not natively BT enabled (the 702 is) but as indicated, you can add BT functionality by adding the VE.direct BT dongle as you have identified. This lets you view the BMV data on the victron App, but
The BMV700 with BT is not necessarily for ve.networking though.

You need a victron SBS On the lithium battery only. This will pair with your victron MPPT and victron charger by BT VE.Networking and provide battery temperature information for the lithium charging

My ebl119 still receives 240v supply. This means the control panel illuminates when there is mains supply, but the 20A fuse is out so there is no mains charging. I was told this also knocks out the starter trickle charge.

I've never had a starter battery issue solely relying on the VanBitz battery Master to trickle charge the starter battery

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[Pausim]

peterc10
I was told this also knocks out the starter trickle charge.

Not according to Udo Lang at Schaudt.

 

[gerry mcg]

Not according to Udo Lang at Schaudt.

Even better then! as my EBL is still connected to 240v with the charging circuit disabled
However this post from autorouter in my thread about adding a lithium specific charger explains how the starter battery is trickle charged via EBL119 when the 20A charger fuse Is removed

My van came with the EBL connected via the WAGO connectors mentioned above (25A 250V 3 Pole Plug & socket with Relief Housing Black” and “25A 250V 3 Pole Plug with Relief Housing Black” and “25A 250v 3 pole socket with relief housing” these allow a second 3 core 240v cable to be connected into the circuit easily

 

[peterc10]

Udo Lang at Schaudt advised me to leave the mains connected to the EBL so that it can continue to provide the trickle charge to the engine battery. You just need to remove the 20A charger fuse marked “internes Ladegerät”.

I have already done that when I installed the Lithiums. But I may need a mains charger for the hab batterie in the winter and if I am going to put one in with a Lithium profile I do not see the point of having two mains chargers

I was told this also knocks out the starter trickle charge.

That is not correct for my EBL29 set up. My cab battery is still getting a trickle charge from the EBL with the 20A fuse out. As I understand it this goes through the fridge supply cable from the EBL to the cab battery, the one with the 20A fuse on the cab battery.

Edit. Just to make it clear, I can already see what the battery temperatures (I have two) are by opening the K&S app. But I do not spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week watching that, contrary to what SWMBO says. I want to make sure that any mains charger I put in also knows the battery temperature and uses that information so as to not charge them when the temperature gets to near freezing.

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