Fitted Inverter but it shuts off power to the van? (1 Viewer)

funflair

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Yes JockandRita Including your Fridge and Alde but not battery charger, the fridge can be handy but you have to remember if you leave the inverter on for a long period, the Alde would need a lot of solar to be of any use so best keep that switched off😏
 
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MisterB

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Yes JockandRita Including your Fridge and Alde but not battery charger, the fridge can be handy but you have to remember if you leave the inverter on for a long period, the Alde would need a lot of solar to be of any use so best keep that switched off😏
Martin et al, did you fit the auto changeover or was it a standard manufacturer item?

i would be interested in exploring it further, i have done a quick google and they seem to be expensive relays, but i am probably a million miles away from actually fitting one. sterling also do a manual one - do you see any issues in a manual one?
 
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for those of you with microwaves in their vans that they use when not on EHU - when you are on EHU do you still run the microwave through the inverter (and the batteries being topped up by the ehu) or do you plug the microwave into the standard ehu supplied circuit? i am setting my circuit design so that the individual circuit that feeds only the microwave, can be plugged into the inverter or a feed from the ehu (via the consumer unit)
There's more than one way to do this. First, think about the loads, and split them into 'inverter loads' - those you would like to be powered by the inverter - and 'non-inverter loads' - those you definitely do not want to be powered by the inverter.

Non-inverter loads are for example the mains battery charger, the mains elements of the water heater and the space heater, and possibly the fridge.

Assign one MCB in the mains box to inverter loads, and a second MCB to the non-inverter loads.

Some inverters have a built-in changeover switch, that automatically uses hookup mains if available. If so, connect the inverter loads to the inverter output, and the inverter loads MCB to the inverter mains input.

Otherwise, use a 2-way changeover relay, triggered by the hookup mains input. Wire the COMMON terminals to the inverter loads, the NORMALLY CLOSED terminals to the inverter output, and the NORMALLY OPEN terminals to the inverter loads MCB in the hookup mains box.

If you are likely to be using hookup quite a lot, it's worth investigating a Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger. The mains charger is part of the unit, and integrates with the inverter. It will automatically switch from inverting to hookup supply, and back to inverting again, without interruption.

But there's more to it than that. You can set an amps limit from the hookup post (say 6A, or 10A) and the battery charger will throttle back its charging to stay within the limit if you switch on a high load. Even better, if the hookup post limit is say 6A, you can set the limit to that value, and if your loads temporarily exceed that value, say 12A, then it will draw power from the batteries to boost the hookup post power to 12A. Obviously not indefinitely, but when the load drops below 6A the charger will recharge the batteries automatically. It's a great piece of kit, if you are likely to be in a situation where you need it.

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funflair

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Martin et al, did you fit the auto changeover or was it a standard manufacturer item?

i would be interested in exploring it further, i have done a quick google and they seem to be expensive relays, but i am probably a million miles away from actually fitting one. sterling also do a manual one - do you see any issues in a manual one?
The changeover was on our Flair when we bought it but I think the previous owner had it fitted, on our MORELO we have a combination inverter charger with automatic compensation for low hook up supply but this is all factory fit.
 

Hoovie

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What you would be looking at is a ATS - or Automatic Transfer Switch. Very handy items.

I think (from a previous post and from his description above) is a Victron Multiplus, which has an ATS built in as part of the design, plus an "Power Assist" feature that makes up the difference using the inverter between what the EHU can supply and what the 240V demand is inside the van. This is actually really useful even on a site with normal power hookup in fact as you don't have to think "want to use the microwave. better switch off the electric heating", you can just use them both and if there is a portion the EHU can't supply on the microwave side the battery will make it up seamlessly. And then once the microwave is done, the battery gets a charge again, all automatically. It eliminates overload trip on EHU on sites :)
I used the Power Assist mode this weekend at home as it happens as someone parked up on my driveway and wanted to use hookup whilst I was also on hookup charging my batteries and had the room heater on. I limit my current to 12A (plug into 13A socket), so I actually plugged his van into MY van, and so when he turned on his electric hob and kettle, plus my heater running and charger running at 60A DC, using more than 12A AC, all running through the EasyPlus, and so had assist mode for 20 minutes or so.

Simple enough to add a more basic ATS to an existing or more basic setup though (I posted one out today as it happens). Just have to make sure it is not fitted in such a way it supplies devices which should be EHU only, such as battery chargers or room heaters.
 
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funflair

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What you would be looking at is a ATS - or Automatic Transfer Switch. Very handy items.

I think (from a previous post and from his description above) is a Victron Multiplus, which has an ATS built in as part of the design, plus an "Power Assist" feature that makes up the difference using the inverter between what the EHU can supply and what the 240V demand is inside the van. This is actually really useful even on a site with normal power hookup in fact as you don't have to think "want to use the microwave. better switch off the electric heating", you can just use them both and if there is a portion the EHU can't supply on the microwave side the battery will make it up seamlessly. And then once the microwave is done, the battery gets a charge again, all automatically. It eliminates overload trip on EHU on sites :)
I used the Power Assist mode this weekend at home as it happens as someone parked up on my driveway and wanted to use hookup whilst I was also on hookup charging my batteries and had the room heater on. I limit my current to 12A (plug into 13A socket), so when he turned on his electric hob and kettle, plus my heater running and charger running at 60A DC, using more than 12A AC, so had assist mode for 20 minutes or so.

Simple enough to add a more basic ATS to an existing or more basic setup though (I posted one out today as it happens). Just have to make sure it is not fitted in such a way it supplies devices which should be EHU only, such as battery chargers or room heaters.
Ours is Buttner but the same idea as Victron or Mastervolt👍

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sallylillian

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As Martin says I have a Victron system which I installed to replace the Buttner setup. Also as mentioned in another post splitting the AC out utilising the 2 Multiplus output connections. Using separate breakers etc. This is the picture of the electric locker and zooming in will enable examination of the splits I employed. The Multi is in the garage.
20210221_113148.jpg

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MisterB

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Wow, you guys have really got brilliant set ups, really appreciate you sharing the info

not jealous one little bit .. :pinocchio:

Hoovie

When you said , simple enough to add an ATS, does that also mean a simple price lol - asking for a friend of course... I don't think I could justify anything as good as the systems you all have, but a simple way to switch over might be one for the future.

Best wishes and thanks again to everyone for the info,

Dave
 
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MisterB

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too late to edit previous post ---

i assume it would be something like this manual changeover switch - whilst not automatic or pretty, would be easier than moving the plug from one socket to the next - especially if i can site it in an accessible place, it would save moving cushions, lifting seats etc

 

funflair

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As Martin says I have a Victron system which I installed to replace the Buttner setup. Also as mentioned in another post splitting the AC out utilising the 2 Multiplus output connections. Using separate breakers etc. This is the picture of the electric locker and zooming in will enable examination of the splits I employed. The Multi is in the garage.
View attachment 555832
I still can't quite get my head around that big blue box is the solar controller Michael, makes my effort look rather "toy town"

IMG_0172.jpeg

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MisterB

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enough to know i shouldnt touch things i know nothing about ....
is there such a thing as 'set up' envy - if there is then i have it after seeing some of the systems you guys have ...... seriously infected to be honest !!

brilliant !!!
 

Hoovie

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The Morello's seem to have an incredible number of breakers! I know they are very large motorhomes so will have more than the average, but even so! Is each AC socket on its own breaker?

P.S. don't take that comment as a criticism. I think it it fantastic. I am all for controllability.

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sallylillian

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No each socket is not on its own breaker, however individual items are. So for example, washing machine, coffee machine, air conditioning (x2), awning, fridge etc etc. Whilst this might seem excessive the benefit is a failure is easy to source and does not take out multiple connections.
 

Hoovie

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Wow, you guys have really got brilliant set ups, really appreciate you sharing the info

not jealous one little bit .. :pinocchio:

Hoovie

When you said , simple enough to add an ATS, does that also mean a simple price lol - asking for a friend of course... I don't think I could justify anything as good as the systems you all have, but a simple way to switch over might be one for the future.

Best wishes and thanks again to everyone for the info,

Dave
too late to edit previous post ---

i assume it would be something like this manual changeover switch - whilst not automatic or pretty, would be easier than moving the plug from one socket to the next - especially if i can site it in an accessible place, it would save moving cushions, lifting seats etc

An Automatic Transfer Switch would involve the same wiring as the manual one you posted a link of above, yes. So if you decided you are able to fit a Manual One, yes, you would be able to fit an automatic one.
Obviously the innards in the box are different, but that is unimportant, and you can site it somewhere out the way, so auto is much more convenient, but they both do the same job.

cost wise, they all vary in price. The ones I make start from around £40 but as features increase the price increases accordingly. You have have them plug and play (for example, I do one for a Hymer that just plugs directly into the WAGO AC socket on the other side of the EHU external socket, so it takes nearly a minute to install) or hard-wired if you want to connect into a consumer unit, or have multiple outlets. Yiu can incorporate remote control so the inverter will only operare if the battery is at a certain state of charge.


A key feature is WHERE you fit it and understanding the consequences .... a typical UK Site Hookup is 16A - that is a lot of power in relative terms inside a motorhome. when you are hooked up you might use a microwave, a toaster and a kettle all at the same time. Ignoring the battery question intially, your inverter is likely to be only able to handle one of those at a time, so while it is a relatively easy fit, there is still a need of HOW and WHEN to use. once that clicks, brilliantly convenient to just be able to plug something in to whatever socket is best and just have it working.
When I bought my new (to me) Motorhome last year, I had no doubt I would be fitting a Victron Multiplus (which has an ATS built in) in it, as it was so useful in the campervan I had built. just a mattery of deciding WHICH Multiplus.
Bringing back the batteries ... you have already had comments about the battery sizing. this is the other factor and there are some things you just should not run on an inverter - such as room heating, as it will just suck the power out of any battery setup, or the battery charger (just end up in a loop using the battery to charge the battery) so ideally want a EHU-Only circuit for those, or be very aware to switch them off if possibility of inverter coming on.

End of the day, an ATS of some sort is (IMO) a great little feature to have. This is a Consumer Unit I built with an integral ATS and Remote Control input

CU+ATS+Remote
by David, on Flickr
One half is EHU only, one half is Auto-Select EHU/Inverter, all in the one unit for a self-build camper installation.
 
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The Morello's seem to have an incredible number of breakers! I know they are very large motorhomes so will have more than the average, but even so! Is each AC socket on its own breaker?

P.S. don't take that comment as a criticism. I think it it fantastic. I am all for controllability.
Outside the UK, most houses are wired like that. There are a number of 'radials' with 16A breakers, and high load appliances have their own wire and breaker. They don't use 'rings' with high power wiring and fused plugs like in the UK.

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700 watt microwave will use a lot more than 700 Watts, that is the cooking power not the power consumed. More like 800 to 900watts and the startup power will be a lot higher. Also you haven't allowed for inverter inefficency normally 85 to 92% efficient.

Also my figures weren't referring to battery capacity but the actual load on the battery. i.e. If you were drawing 900 Watts that would be a load of around 82 amps taking into account Inverter efficency. That would be the absolute maximum I would want to take out or 260ah of batteries.
Microwave ovens are only 50% efficient, they only use half of the the mains input sinewave, so when looking at an approximate power consumption you just double the cooking power.
 

Hoovie

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Topic has veered away from just an Inverter not switching on to interesting ways to install them and transfer switches, etc, (and right into a key interest of mine :) ).
I love those Morello setups. I could only dream of having one like that, but I did update my own 13 year old Autotrail a little to give more usability.
Kept the original Sargent EC325 PDU with its 3 MCBs in place, but broke into the cable from EHU Entry Plug to Sargent unit and installed a Victron EasyPlus 12/1600/70 Unit (The EasyPlus is a Multiplus with a built-in Consumer Unit - this feature is key for my install).

EasyPlus by David, on Flickr
The EasyPlus has 4 MCB outlets - 3 via the inverter and 1 dedicated EHU only (labelled "Boiler" by Victron).
I rerouted the Truma Electric Room Heater supply to use the "Boiler" output. This ensures I will never run the heater inadvertantly off the batteries.
The other 3 Breakers are all EHU/Inverter auto-switching
The next MCB - AC Out 1 - is spare (I can actually move the plug from "Boiler" to "AC Out 1" if I really needed to run the heater and had no Hookup)
AC Out 2 MCB is dedicated to external AC sockets - one is a 16A MK Socket on the hab side which I can use to plug in AC stuff outside. Maybe portable Induction Hob, or maybe Power Tools? Also have a socket on that breaker inside this electrics locker which is primarily for e-Bike battery charging but could be for anything (outlet is a 13A socket)
And the AC Out 3 MCB goes onto the the Sargent unit and so is the main AC Supply as before (excepting the Truma Ultraheat Room Heater).
(The two Victron BMVs above the EasyPlus are for the Lithium Battery Bank and the Lead Carbon AGM Battery Banks respectively)


And this is the other wall of the Locker with the various MPPTs, control boxes and Cerbo, plus all the cabling

Electrics Locker by David, on Flickr
I use the locker as a locker still, so the perspex wall keeps everything protected from being knocked whilst still visible for checking

I have added extra controllabilty on the 240V AC as well. The Truma Ultrastor Water Heater is still fed through the Sargent system and is a very predicatable device - a 850W heater heating up 10L of water to 60C is a known quanitity of power (the only thing that varies is the starting temp of the water) and so I have kept the ability to use that via the Inverter, but via an SSR that is only enabled when the battery State of Charge is greater than whatever I set the Victron BMV-712 (a third BMC that monitors the overall 500Ah Battery Bank) relay to. This allows me to use it as a bit of a energy dump if I have spare solar capacity as well as just using battery power if I know I will be replenishing it later on, or won't need the full capacity later anyway (maybe going home). So a handy way to save LPG.
Also in the control box with the SSR is a Timer Circuit and some nifty wiring and a 3-way switch which lets me choose between the BMV-712 Control of the power, a total override so I can just switch on the Water Heater regardless, or a 60 minute timer when it will switch on regardless, but only for an hour and then reset back to default BMV control operation (I have found 60 minutes will give me a full 10L tank of hot water in normal circumstances).

Not as posh as the Morellos for sure, but a nice usuability step-up from the Autotrail standard :)
 
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i assume it would be something like this manual changeover switch - whilst not automatic or pretty, would be easier than moving the plug from one socket to the next - especially if i can site it in an accessible place, it would save moving cushions, lifting seats etc
Otherwise, use a 2-way changeover relay, triggered by the hookup mains input. Wire the COMMON terminals to the inverter loads, the NORMALLY CLOSED terminals to the inverter output, and the NORMALLY OPEN terminals to the inverter loads MCB in the hookup mains box.
Here's a diagram, might be a bit clearer. You could put the relay in an 'adaptable box' as found in the electrical section of DIY stores. Add three cable glands, and it will all be safely isolated and waterproof.

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Raul

If i explain what it is that I am doing, it might you point/push me in the right direction?

I attach the inverter via a circuit breaker to the positive terminal connection, then connect that to the leisure battery. The circuit breaker is in the 'off' position.
I then connect the negative terminal to the leisure battery and almost immediately I hear a click in the main electric bix/gizmo that feeds everything 12v in the van and nothing works.

I then remove the inverter connections from the battery terminals and connect it all back up again and everything 12v works

As the positive connection isn't being made, it must be something to do with the only connection that is made, that being the negative between the inverter and the battery.

Tomorrow I will fit the earth connection from the inverter direct to the earthing connection for the van wiring. I assumed it would be earthed via the negative cable but perhaps that isn't the case. Not sure why that would matter but I will do it anyway.

Reallyretired
Hoovie
As Raul has said it maybe the inverter that's faulty, i.e. drawing too much current/Short circuit if you connect it directly to the battery can you switch it on and does the inverter work with anything connected? if you have a multimeter try and see how much current the inverter is drawing.
 
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As Raul has said it maybe the inverter that's faulty, i.e. drawing too much current/Short circuit if you connect it directly to the battery can you switch it on and does the inverter work with anything connected? if you have a multimeter try and see how much current the inverter is drawing.
 
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MisterB

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Here's a diagram, might be a bit clearer. You could put the relay in an 'adaptable box' as found in the electrical section of DIY stores. Add three cable glands, and it will all be safely isolated and waterproof.
Just sat having a coffee at Browhills overnight and catching up with all the helpful posts,

Hoovie
autorouter

Great info and something I can understand and sort out myself I think, taking on board all your comments re establishing which circuits I want to feed. I thinking I only need the microwave and toaster as I'm not sure if a kettle would be too much to expect to work ??
I'm pretty sure that all my plug sockets are wired individually on separate circuits, but will obv check first
Another question is - would the inverter when the auto changeover has switched to ehu, need turning off ? Or would the amount of power it is using be negligible and be topped up by the on board battery charger either on ehu or by travelling and therefore the alternator?

Thanks again to everyone

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Hoovie

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Just sat having a coffee at Browhills overnight and catching up with all the helpful posts,

Hoovie
autorouter

Great info and something I can understand and sort out myself I think, taking on board all your comments re establishing which circuits I want to feed. I thinking I only need the microwave and toaster as I'm not sure if a kettle would be too much to expect to work ??
I'm pretty sure that all my plug sockets are wired individually on separate circuits, but will obv check first
Another question is - would the inverter when the auto changeover has switched to ehu, need turning off ? Or would the amount of power it is using be negligible and be topped up by the on board battery charger either on ehu or by travelling and therefore the alternator?

Thanks again to everyone
You don't HAVE to turn off the inverter when the EHU goes live, but I would still keep the inverter off until you want to use it, and switch it off again afterwards for your intended use. An inverter on zero load still has a power draw. Small, but all adds up over time.
Think of the autoswitch more of a convenience thing of not having to muck around with changing sockets
 
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MisterB

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You don't HAVE to turn off the inverter when the EHU goes live, but I would still keep the inverter off until you want to use it, and switch it off again afterwards for your intended use. An inverter on zero load still has a power draw. Small, but all adds up over time.
But if the EHU is on or moho being driven, wouldn't that just charge up to cover any loss?
 

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But if the EHU is on or moho being driven, wouldn't that just charge up to cover any loss?
Yes it would, but if you then forget to turn it off when you get home or get to a campsite and leave something plugged in that you have forgotten about it would be easy to end up with a flat battery, we have loads of LiFePO4 and solar but still turn the inverter off when we are not using it, actually it turn itself off when it detects no load unless we have overridden it. Ours automatically comes on when we plug in but that's because it backs up a low power hook up automatically so needs to be on.

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Hoovie

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But if the EHU is on or moho being driven, wouldn't that just charge up to cover any loss?
It would recharge. Would it cover the losses? the inverter is just another load of many that you need to cover, so if you expect to have excess charging available to recharge back to 100%, no problem. otherwise, it is good practice to minimize draws when you have the opportunity (it is not as if you will be using the Microwave or Toaster when you are driving, or need the Inverter when on EHU.

It is also not a bad idea to minimize the period a device is powered up when no needed so it lasts longer.
 

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Here's a diagram, might be a bit clearer. You could put the relay in an 'adaptable box' as found in the electrical section of DIY stores. Add three cable glands, and it will all be safely isolated and waterproof.
Your diagram is how I wired my inverter but there is an alternative way which I think has merit and when I get round to it I will probably change mine.

The problem with wiring the inverter through the normally closed contacts is if you are on a very low current EHU (I've seen a 3A supply in Italy and 6A is very common) and you want to run a high power load from the inverter you have to go outside to unplug the EHU so you can turn the inverter on.

The alternative way is to wire the EHU side through the normally closed contacts and the inverter through the normally open and to the relay coil. With this arrangement you can turn the inverter on while still connected to the EHU, assuming of course the relay breaks one circuit before it close the other - which it should. You can then run your high power load and the EHU will continue to charge the batteries and run the fridge.
 
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Your diagram is how I wired my inverter but there is an alternative way which I think has merit and when I get round to it I will probably change mine.

The problem with wiring the inverter through the normally closed contacts is if you are on a very low current EHU (I've seen a 3A supply in Italy and 6A is very common) and you want to run a high power load from the inverter you have to go outside to unplug the EHU so you can turn the inverter on.

The alternative way is to wire the EHU side through the normally closed contacts and the inverter through the normally open and to the relay coil. With this arrangement you can turn the inverter on while still connected to the EHU, assuming of course the relay breaks one circuit before it close the other - which it should. You can then run your high power load and the EHU will continue to charge the batteries and run the fridge.
I second that, that's why I wired mine the other way around.

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