Finally been forced to upgrade my 2012 computer (2 Viewers)

[dunnah01]

My cheapo phone is still faster, more reliable and much more user friendly though ?

 

[Gromett]

I doubt you will see that much difference between a good SSD and an NVMe in speed terms. The computer could no doubt measure it, but a human. General data storage HDD's are fine, but the SSD is more energy efficient.

It is the increased IOPS that will make a difference for me. Starting up virtual machines for dev work and compiling software makes it a no brainer. If I was just playing games I wouldn't replace existing SSD's with NVMe but would buy when upgrading to larger storage for example/

You indicate primary use of the computer is work, with a little gaming. AMD, provided you get balanced RAM seems the current way to go on bang for buck, if you have need for multiple threads, popular with those who do a lot of encoding of video and stuff. Most games have yet to really use muti threading so for those the core speed of the CPU is better.

AMD GPU's are too power hungry and run hot in comparison to NVidia in the benchmarks I have seen. Also for Linux if you are happy with binary blobs then NVidia does better desktop support for complex setups such as looking glass and virtualised screens. But if it is just for desktop use and linux games then AMD open source driver may be better.

If you don't need ray tracing on the GPU then some of the AMD based GPUs may be better value than those of the green tea, just watch the power consumption, and thus heat. Half height GPU cards are available, but as you note may limit choice and cost a tad more. Most GPUs need some space just so they can be adequately cooled by fans.

Yup, I just found out about the half height cards costing more... Plenty of space in my 3U rackmount case. It is full size EATX motherboard and only one PCIe card plugged in. I was moving from a single fan GTX 750Ti to a GTX 1660 Super single fan. The length is the same on both cards barely longer than the PCIe slot. However the 1660 is about an inch taller The 750Ti didn't go above the height of the bracket, the 1660 does unfortunately.

 

[Kannon Fodda]

Ah a rackmount case. As these are usually server they wouldn't normally need space for much of a GPU (unless quite specialist) I'd be wary about cooling needs even for your CPU, have you allowed enough space for the heatsink / fan assembly, and what about noise if it has to work a lot harder than your earlier setup?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

Ah a rackmount case. As these are usually server they wouldn't normally need space for much of a GPU (unless quite specialist) I'd be wary about cooling needs even for your CPU, have you allowed enough space for the heatsink / fan assembly, and what about noise if it has to work a lot harder than your earlier setup?

I have been using rack mount cases for 20+ years

Seriously there is more space in a 3U case than most desktop cases. Remember it is 19" wide and pretty deep. It is only the height that suffers in a rack mount case. With 1U and 2U cases heatsink/fans for the CPU causes the issues due to height. But with 3U cooling is absolutely no issue at all even with the supplied intel heatsink and fan. I also have 3 x 80mm fans at the front push air in through filters. At the back I have 2 x 120mm fans. All air goes directly past the CPU and GPU. Next time I drag it out I will try and take a picture of the inside. You would be surprised how clear the air flow is. The thermals have been perfectly fine up to now as monitored by the system.

Remember in data centres these are stacked 40+U high and quiet often you will have them back to back with each other. Having had 2 full racks full of servers with half them in back to back config I was very aware of heat management. The current system has worked well for 8+ years.

Also I use high static pressure Noctua fans for the input and high flow Noctua fans for the output. The output is ducted well away from the back of the case and this has the second 120mm fan in it.
Noise is not an issue due to the exceptional accoustics of the Noctua fans and the fact the ducting is behind two walls away from where I sit.

Just in case you are interested here is the sensors output while I am doing some light loads.

karl@karl-linux2:~$ sensors
acpitz-virtual-0
Adapter: Virtual device
temp1: +27.8°C (crit = +106.0°C)
temp2: +29.8°C (crit = +106.0°C)

coretemp-isa-0000
Adapter: ISA adapter
Package id 0: +45.0°C (high = +85.0°C, crit = +105.0°C)
Core 0: +45.0°C (high = +85.0°C, crit = +105.0°C)
Core 1: +39.0°C (high = +85.0°C, crit = +105.0°C)
Core 2: +36.0°C (high = +85.0°C, crit = +105.0°C)
Core 3: +42.0°C (high = +85.0°C, crit = +105.0°C)


Room temp is currently 23°C

 

[clanjones]

Loving this chat! I spent many a happy year in bank computer halls building serious bits of kit!

Have always built my own kit as it was a bit of a hobby but also because of cost. Never been a gamer so I have always used AMD.

Still running a 6 core black Phenon and does me fine just now but the day will come though for a rebuild! Hopefully after I have finished the shed!

As an aside, being playing with Linux on old laptops for some time and generally I always used Mint, but just installed Xunbuntu and impressed. Smaller footprint but more importantly a good selection of software including Zoom and Skype that is very easy to install.

 

[tonyidle]

My present PC (like most good machines it's Triggers Broom) is about 5 years old. In the middle of the build I realised I'd forgotten the CPU heatsink. My local computer shop, that I never, ever, use had none in stock other than an ex-demo all-in-one water cooling kit. So that's what I used. And it's brilliant. Takes up much less room than air-cooling, never get more than vaguely warm. I can see it staying for the next build. Totally sold on it compared with previous monster devices. I always thought they were for gaming nerds.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gellyneck]

Damnit! Display port cable arrived today and HDMI to VGA adapter. So thought I would put the GFX card in and see what it was like.
It won't fit. Too tall for my 3U server case. The card sits proud of the top of the L bracket so I can't get the lid back on.

Looked at alternatives and the only one that will fit is £100 more... I checked the length but didn't think the height would be a problem DOH!!!

No place to put a normal case in my van... So back to the drawing board I think.

Yip, a right moment!
Nearly did the same a few years back with a cpu cooler!

Anyway, here's your optimum tech solution. Hacksaw a slot out the side of the case!!!!!

 

[Coolcats]

Regarding heat there are lots of forums commenting on how hot the raspberry pi 4 can get so I added thermal pads, a heat sink which has micro fans which are silent. There are reports of this little beast getting up to 90 odd degrees. The whole unit looks like a heat sink now ? with t being 26 c in the office the unit at idle was 37-38 c (kept flicking between the two) I ran a CPUBurn test and the highest temp with the CPU running at 100% for 30 mins was 60 c so I don't think I will be having issues that some of the raspberry forums have mentioned.

I have added an image of my old 90's knowledge based systems book with I will use as reference when playing again with Neural net.

A 2Gb Raspberry is £34 and the 4Gb is £54 which is beer money for what some may think is a toy computer yet allows for some serious coding and or a super cheap PC (Rasbian NOOBS comes with a complete office suite web browser VNC) or media player.

 

[Coolcats]

Yip, a right moment!
Nearly did the same a few years back with a cpu cooler!

Anyway, here's your optimum tech solution. Hacksaw a slot out the side of the case!!!!!

Oh my, maybe a Dremel would help

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gellyneck]

Oh my, maybe a Dremel would help

Think you're being a wee bitty silly there! An old hacksaw blade is cheaper!

 

[Coolcats]

Think you're being a wee bitty silly there! An old hacksaw blade is cheaper!

Probably but my Dremel doesn't get out much so any excuse.....

 

[Gromett]

Cutting an slot in the side of the case wouldn't help. It is height that is the issue.

Leaving the lid off would be an option, however I could not then get the case into the custom built shelf in the cabinet made for it.

The life of a fulltimer is never simple

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

Regarding heat there are lots of forums commenting on how hot the raspberry pi 4 can get so I added thermal pads, a heat sink which has micro fans which are silent. There are reports of this little beast getting up to 90 odd degrees. The whole unit looks like a heat sink now ? with t being 26 c in the office the unit at idle was 37-38 c (kept flicking between the two) I ran a CPUBurn test and the highest temp with the CPU running at 100% for 30 mins was 60 c so I don't think I will be having issues that some of the raspberry forums have mentioned.

I have added an image of my old 90's knowledge based systems book with I will use as reference when playing again with Neural net.

A 2Gb Raspberry is £34 and the 4Gb is £54 which is beer money for what some may think is a toy computer yet allows for some serious coding and or a super cheap PC (Rasbian NOOBS comes with a complete office suite web browser VNC) or media player.




View attachment 390309
View attachment 390311

View attachment 390315

Humble Bundle did a great set of computer books a while back included some on AI and developing for the Raspberry Pi.

I attempted to make one to recognise pigeons. Had some success but too many false positives with other birds. AI is relatively simple to implement, just hard to get the right training data tagged. A lot of work required on that front.

 

[Wissel]

Cutting an slot in the side of the case wouldn't help. It is height that is the issue.

Leaving the lid off would be an option, however I could not then get the case into the custom built shelf in the cabinet made for it.

The life of a fulltimer is never simple

Would a riser card or cable work?

 

[Gromett]

Would a riser card or cable work?

No. Although there is a lot of space over all the PCIe slots (it is an EATX motherboard) there is no mounting options and the PSU would be in the way for sideways mounting. I did consider a PCIe cable initially.
It would also make the external cables a nightmare.

I have settled on a new case and am going to do some joinery.

Link Removed

It is not the case I would have chosen. The reviews are not up to what I would normally buy based on. But I am not adverse to modifying/repairing poor manufacturing.
This case is of a size that I can fit it in a space currently used by a rack for storage boxes. I will move the boxes elsewhere and do the necessary joinery on the shelf.
It is not in an ideal location as it will be close to being overhead so any noise it makes will be heard clearly by me. But needs must.


CPU arrived 4 days early. Wasn't expecting it till Tuesday but arrived today.

So I now have all the parts but can't build it. So frustrating.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

Any recommendations for monitors.
I have settled on a spec as follows;
1440p QHD
70+HZ refresh rate. 140 would nice but not essential.
VESA mount
IPS (critical) not VA or TN
In Stock, no waiting till july

 

[Gromett]

Well that didn't go well...

Built new computer moved hard drives across.

Nothing comes on screen. After a lot of faffing realised that the new monitor cable is a DP to HDMI and doesn't work. Dug out an old HDMI to HDMI cable and plugged this in and up and running on Linux.
Uninstalled GTX750TI drivers, installed GTX 1660 drivers and everything works Total time taken 5 mins max.

Reboot into windows 7 to see how World of Warcraft (wow) run. Gets to the login prompt and keyboard and mouse don't work.
Turns out win 7 doesn't support USB 3.... There is no way to copy the driver files across without doing a re-install.

So I bit the bullet and tried to download windows 10 from microsoft. Except I couldn't their website was down. Eventually came back up and downloaded it.
Burned it to a USB drive and set about installing.

Windows 10 install is a frustrating experience. 4 reboots!!!! No info about what it was doing just a circle of dots going around. Finally it says it is done then it demands you give them a microsoft login. Skype, office etc. or create one. I just want to get into my computer. Luckily had a skype account, but it wanted my password. I use lastpass for this... Grrr. Remember my phone has lastpass installed so go into that and get password. Then it asks me loads of snoopy questions. Do you want me to track you, do you want adverts personalised? WTF!!! Adverts in an OS, are you kidding me? Loads of other stuff...

Finally got there. Installed firefox initially then realised I couldn't copy my backup files back across because Windows doesn't support ext4 filing system. My fault. Click on the start menu button. Nothing happens. Hit the windows key, nothing happens. How the hell do you do anything on this? CTRL ALT DEL allows me to log out and access the power off button.

Not been a great experience so far. Although I have to say the fact it found and installed my new graphics card drivers and set them up was slick.

Now I am going to have to spend the next 1,2 or 3 hours figuring out how to get rid of the crappy menu and put a bog standard one it's place. How to stop windows being so snoopy, and how to get rid of adverts etc. Think I may be busy on my firewall configuration to block MS snoopy crap.

Not looking forward to this

 

[Coolcats]

Well that didn't go well...

Built new computer moved hard drives across.

Nothing comes on screen. After a lot of faffing realised that the new monitor cable is a DP to HDMI and doesn't work. Dug out an old HDMI to HDMI cable and plugged this in and up and running on Linux.
Uninstalled GTX750TI drivers, installed GTX 1660 drivers and everything works Total time taken 5 mins max.

Reboot into windows 7 to see how World of Warcraft (wow) run. Gets to the login prompt and keyboard and mouse don't work.
Turns out win 7 doesn't support USB 3.... There is no way to copy the driver files across without doing a re-install.

So I bit the bullet and tried to download windows 10 from microsoft. Except I couldn't their website was down. Eventually came back up and downloaded it.
Burned it to a USB drive and set about installing.

Windows 10 install is a frustrating experience. 4 reboots!!!! No info about what it was doing just a circle of dots going around. Finally it says it is done then it demands you give them a microsoft login. Skype, office etc. or create one. I just want to get into my computer. Luckily had a skype account, but it wanted my password. I use lastpass for this... Grrr. Remember my phone has lastpass installed so go into that and get password. Then it asks me loads of snoopy questions. Do you want me to track you, do you want adverts personalised? WTF!!! Adverts in an OS, are you kidding me? Loads of other stuff...

Finally got there. Installed firefox initially then realised I couldn't copy my backup files back across because Windows doesn't support ext4 filing system. My fault. Click on the start menu button. Nothing happens. Hit the windows key, nothing happens. How the hell do you do anything on this? CTRL ALT DEL allows me to log out and access the power off button.

Not been a great experience so far. Although I have to say the fact it found and installed my new graphics card drivers and set them up was slick.

Now I am going to have to spend the next 1,2 or 3 hours figuring out how to get rid of the crappy menu and put a bog standard one it's place. How to stop windows being so snoopy, and how to get rid of adverts etc. Think I may be busy on my firewall configuration to block MS snoopy crap.

Not looking forward to this

Hope the next steps go well

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[suavecarve]

You guys are looking into this far too deeply

My laptop came from PC world and i got it brand new for £249 and it replaced one that cost the same about 6 years previously. I can also get the internet on my phone which i only paid £119 and selling my information for free (huawei)

I m open to advise if you need.

Seriously havent got a clue what this thread is about !

 

[Gellyneck]

Reboot into windows 7 to see how World of Warcraft (wow) run. Gets to the login prompt and keyboard and mouse don't work.
Turns out win 7 doesn't support USB 3.... There is no way to copy the driver files across without doing a re-install.

Karl, did you run Windows 7 updates?
USB 3 support was included in one of the service packs \ updates.
I've just booted one of my dual boot desktops (7 + 10 both Pro) and in 7 Device Manager it's showing both USB 3 controllers on the mobo (ASMedia and VIA). It's a Gigabyte AM3+ board from around 2015 with it's original BIOS (albeit there's an update for it).
From memory, you may need to tweak the BIOS to get 7 to recognise USB 3.
If you're going to stick with 10 I think a number of the pop-ups \ ads can be turned off in Settings \ Personalise \ ......

 

[Langtoftlad]

Turns out win 7 doesn't support USB 3

I had my bod install 4x USB3 on my ancient Win7 box - as far as I can tell they're working... transfer rates seem to be much faster than the original USB2

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[gus-lopez]

I've just had to repair my office desktop computer.
I couldn't decide which bit was playing up until I took the power supply out to clean it. You could not see a single component for the all the crap that was in there, it was jammed.

They need cleaning with an airline here about every 4-6 weeks it is that dusty. 3case fans as standard for cooling due to the heat doesn't help with the problem.

 

[Gromett]

Karl, did you run Windows 7 updates?
USB 3 support was included in one of the service packs \ updates.
I've just booted one of my dual boot desktops (7 + 10 both Pro) and in 7 Device Manager it's showing both USB 3 controllers on the mobo (ASMedia and VIA). It's a Gigabyte AM3+ board from around 2015 with it's original BIOS (albeit there's an update for it).
From memory, you may need to tweak the BIOS to get 7 to recognise USB 3.
If you're going to stick with 10 I think a number of the pop-ups \ ads can be turned off in Settings \ Personalise \ ......

If you have windows 7 already working on the platform then upgrading to 10 works. However, I just swapped the hard disk across. Windows 7 does not support USB3 on AM4 platforms at all natively. You need to install the drivers. To install the drivers you need the keyboard to work so you can login catch 22. Believe me I spent enough time looking into it. Even considered slipstreaming the drivers onto an install disk. But Windows 7 support has ended and I was really pushing it keeping it going like this.

found a neat bit of software to sort out the menus and the privacy issues.

Classic shell has given me back windows 7 style menues, although the start button is a bit odd the menus themselves are usable now.
wpd.app has given me control over the snooping. I disabled everything.. However then it wouldn't run updates nor would it activate. So backed it off a little to allow updates and activation.

Uninstalled everything such as One drive and deleted loads of Microsoft fluff/bloat software. Much more streamlined.

Surprised me, my windows 7 key activated windows 10 fine.

One thing that surprised me was this.
I copied World of warcraft off the backup drive which was formated as EXT4 (linux). Reformated the harddrive as exFat. Then copied it all back. This was done to an 2.5" SSD drive plugged into a USB 3.1 Gen 2 port. Each copy under linux took around 3-5 minutes.

Once back in windows I copied it from this drive, plugged into the same port and it took 18 minutes to copy. WTH???

Set updates going half an hour ago and looks like I will be here for a few hours waiting for all the updates to run. Not sure how many reboots I will need.

On Linux, updates literally take seconds, no reboot required. Fast as all hell.

That all said. Got wow running and under DX12 instead of DX9 under Win7 and it now uses multi core. So wow runs with really high frame rates now even at setting 10 ultra.

So I hope once I have this system as I want it under win 10 I won't have to touch it again for a few years.

But yeah, Thanks for reminding me why I hate Windows/Microsoft. I could never use this as my daily work system.

 

[Gromett]

I had my bod install 4x USB3 on my ancient Win7 box - as far as I can tell they're working... transfer rates seem to be much faster than the original USB2

If your system already has USB2 ports then that is not an issue. You can use the keyboard plugged into your USB 2 port to login and install the USB3 drivers

My new system doesn't have any USB2 ports at all. The drivers for USB3 are not installed. That was my issue.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gellyneck]

But yeah, Thanks for reminding me why I hate Windows/Microsoft. I could never use this as my daily work system.

Tell the truth you had great fun watching the dots going around!
Just realised (amazing what you think about when out walking the dug in the morning!) that I missed out my last sentence on previous answer.
Have a look at https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 (very similar to wpd, I've used it for a few years and found it very effective) and if you want to turn off \ delay 10 updates have a look at this https://www.sordum.org/9470/windows-update-blocker-v1-5/ (again, used it for a few years).

 

[Stealaway]

They need cleaning with an airline here about every 4-6 weeks it is that dusty. 3case fans as standard for cooling due to the heat doesn't help with the problem.

I do a have a state of the art, hi spec Zalman desktop case, with filters everywhere ---- except to the bloody PSU.

I will be cleaning that PSU on a far more regular basis from now on - the airline sounds a good ides

 

[Gellyneck]

...... - the airline sounds a good ides

Hang about for a week or two and a few more of them will go bust and can be picked up for a song!

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Gromett]

The fan noise from the AMD cooler was doing my head in. So today replaced it with a Noctua L9x65 cooler/fan.
Can't hear it now

However, I can now hear the case fan. So I will when I can be arsed pull one of the 120mm Noctua fans out of the server case and put them in the new one. At low revs these are practically silent.

 

[Gellyneck]

The fan noise from the AMD cooler was doing my head in. So today replaced it with a Noctua L9x65 cooler/fan.
Can't hear it now

However, I can now hear the case fan. So I will when I can be arsed pull one of the 120mm Noctua fans out of the server case and put them in the new one. At low revs these are practically silent.

Was the initial CPU cooler the Wraith that came with the 3600? Just wondering if I should think about an upgrade for it?

 

[Gromett]

Was the initial CPU cooler the Wraith that came with the 3600? Just wondering if I should think about an upgrade for it?

Yes, it was the one that came with it. Quite the noisy little bugger it was.

The new one is still a bit loud at full tilt but nowhere near as annoying.

These are verging on the silent when you use the speed reducing kit.
Link Removed

This is the fan I have in now to replace the hs/fan that came with it. I would only use this if you have a compact case though. If you have a decent size case go for the one with the biggest fan as the bigger the fan the quieter they are. I am forced into this one by the size of the case, which was dictated by the space available in my van.
Link Removed

Once I get my new accommodation sorted out I will be going for a bigger case and upgrading the hs/fan to hopefully one with a 120mm fan on it. It makes such a big difference especially with the static pressure ones.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}