Fiat 2005 2.8 jtd - it won't start (1 Viewer)

[Jaws]

That earth connection has been checked and cleaned, but will, because it's not too difficult run a replacement cable to a new location. Have run a decent jumper cable from battery neg' to engine block without a change. I'm totally convinced that all the earths are good, very low resistance reading between battery neg' and engine block...but I'm game for the simple stuff!

"Batchy" what's that?!

Batchy.. mad as a hatter !

Rather than do a resistance check, do a voltage check.
Negative lead on the engine, positive lead on the chassis NOT the battery
Crank it over and see if there is a significant voltage reading ...

 

[tonyidle]

Could do with a summary at this point! So far as I understand it this thread began with the engine not turning over on the key. Now it does so but won't fire. If those last two statements are correct then they don't refer to two unconnected faults. I'm with Jaws. Most likely it's an earthing fault but it could still be a battery feed fault.

 

[jac-in-a-box]

Here's a quick summary...not had an opportunity to do to much and a couple of suggestions still to try.

*Yes engine refused to turn over, battery start cable to starter and split charge relay cabling wiggled when voltage dropped to 0.8v - returned voltage to normal. Changed two relays in split charge circuit and starter now turns engine over at a healthy speed. Is there a relationship between the two? I don't know but the engine turns!
*Fuel now arriving at injectors, but engine won't start - not a hint of it; no fumes, smoke or smell from exhaust. Injectors not being triggered.
*I'm 100% convinced that all the earth's are spotless. As is positive terminal fuse plate and associated fuse connection points. all fuses in all boxes are intact. Re-sited gearbox earth connection and run additional lead from battery neg' to engine. All visible chassis earth's cleaned. Good continuity between battery neg, engine and chassis. (still to try Jaws suggestion of metering voltage when cranking)
*Working through cleaning all contacts at engine sensors - MAF, fuel rail pressure sensor, cam sensor, sensors on injection pump - fuel pressure regulator? Contacts on ECU clean/dry...nothing found contact wise to give cause for concern. Is there a crank sensor or engine speed sensor? If yes, well I'll be hunting it down.
*My code reader, an Autel MaxiScan MS509 is telling me there are two codes, when toggled to show what they are there's nothing - works on other cars. There is some free software that's compatible with Fiat that'll get. I really do need to know what I'm looking at!.
*When turning over, I've still got dancing instrument needles and a buzzing hazard relay.
*Fiat immobiliser indicates that it's working as does the TOAD immob' - but are they!

In my mind, perhaps doggedly, I'm suspicious of the TOAD alarm/immob' .TOAD were not particulaly helpful. They think it's "working", the personal code I have has been used to ensure the unit functions.

I'm struggling to see what my next move is without a full scan for codes - though a check to see if one of the many relays in fuse locations is duff would be a next sensible move...if only I knew what each relay was for. Working a little blindly, but not without hope!

Suggestions please!

David

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[TheBig1]

serious suggestion join the RAC and have them look at it. if they cannot fix it, they will move the van to a workshop that can.

 

[tonyidle]

Here's a quick summary...not had an opportunity to do to much and a couple of suggestions still to try.

*Yes engine refused to turn over, battery start cable to starter and split charge relay cabling wiggled when voltage dropped to 0.8v - returned voltage to normal. Changed two relays in split charge circuit and starter now turns engine over at a healthy speed. Is there a relationship between the two? I don't know but the engine turns!
*Fuel now arriving at injectors, but engine won't start - not a hint of it; no fumes, smoke or smell from exhaust. Injectors not being triggered.
*I'm 100% convinced that all the earth's are spotless. As is positive terminal fuse plate and associated fuse connection points. all fuses in all boxes are intact. Re-sited gearbox earth connection and run additional lead from battery neg' to engine. All visible chassis earth's cleaned. Good continuity between battery neg, engine and chassis. (still to try Jaws suggestion of metering voltage when cranking)
*Working through cleaning all contacts at engine sensors - MAF, fuel rail pressure sensor, cam sensor, sensors on injection pump - fuel pressure regulator? Contacts on ECU clean/dry...nothing found contact wise to give cause for concern. Is there a crank sensor or engine speed sensor? If yes, well I'll be hunting it down.
*My code reader, an Autel MaxiScan MS509 is telling me there are two codes, when toggled to show what they are there's nothing - works on other cars. There is some free software that's compatible with Fiat that'll get. I really do need to know what I'm looking at!.
*When turning over, I've still got dancing instrument needles and a buzzing hazard relay.
*Fiat immobiliser indicates that it's working as does the TOAD immob' - but are they!

In my mind, perhaps doggedly, I'm suspicious of the TOAD alarm/immob' .TOAD were not particulaly helpful. They think it's "working", the personal code I have has been used to ensure the unit functions.

I'm struggling to see what my next move is without a full scan for codes - though a check to see if one of the many relays in fuse locations is duff would be a next sensible move...if only I knew what each relay was for. Working a little blindly, but not without hope!

Suggestions please!

David

You need to take this a step at a time. Split charge circuitry has no effect whatsoever on the means of turning over the engine. So you need to know why, after you had disturbed the battery-to-starter cable, the engine could be turned over. Unless you found something to prevent cranking whilst you were in that area the fault will return. If there is a poor connection you need to know exactly where it is and what effect it is having. You need to know the battery voltage when cranking measured at the battery terminals. You need to know the battery voltage when cranking measured on the battery terminal clamps. You need to know if the engine is rising a few volts above earth when cranking. Without this information further diagnosis is a stab in the dark. One cardinal rule of fault-finding is to disturb nothing until the fault is diagnosed and located. To do otherwise risks frightening it off to hide. Until it re-emerges to bite you later. This applies especially to electrical faults. The reason I continue to talk about poor connections and Jaws mentions poor earthing is that the ECU and its sensors are prone to hissy fits if their earths aren't electrically at 0v. The stuff I've mentioned is especially pertinent given that the vehicle was operational, you turned it off and left it, then returned at a later date to find that it wouldn't co-operate. Vans aren't clever and only fail when doing nothing for a limited number of reasons. One of which is corroded connections.

 

[MC 55 FUN]

As I stated in my post # 2 - I'm still going with poor voltage / bad earth(s) - especially as the '' dancing instrument panel '' is still dancing . . .

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[wanderer]

Just to add my two penneth worth . Last year my battery ran itself down to just a click on ignition ,when i fitted a new battery the dashboard instruments started dancing and the engine turned over but would not start . After trying and failing to dismantle the immobilizer we cured the problem by resetting the alarm and recoding the keys through the alarm pad . The guy who figured this out was Paul Chamberlain at Northants Motorhome Services Tel: 01604 460332 Mob : 07751 887341 . My vehicle is 2.8 JTD 2004 with Sigma alarm . All the codes had been wiped out by the discharged battery

 

[jac-in-a-box]

serious suggestion join the RAC and have them look at it. if they cannot fix it, they will move the van to a workshop that can.

It has crossed my mind and I do have a breakdown (or recovery service) need to check what it covers. As for recovery to a garage, due to location of the "white elephant" it'll be about as close to impossible as possible to get it on a recovery truck...I mentioned earlier the issues involved!

You need to take this a step at a time. Split charge circuitry has no effect whatsoever on the means of turning over the engine. So you need to know why, after you had disturbed the battery-to-starter cable, the engine could be turned over. Unless you found something to prevent cranking whilst you were in that area the fault will return. If there is a poor connection you need to know exactly where it is and what effect it is having. You need to know the battery voltage when cranking measured at the battery terminals. You need to know the battery voltage when cranking measured on the battery terminal clamps. You need to know if the engine is rising a few volts above earth when cranking. Without this information further diagnosis is a stab in the dark. One cardinal rule of fault-finding is to disturb nothing until the fault is diagnosed and located. To do otherwise risks frightening it off to hide. Until it re-emerges to bite you later. This applies especially to electrical faults. The reason I continue to talk about poor connections and Jaws mentions poor earthing is that the ECU and its sensors are prone to hissy fits if their earths aren't electrically at 0v. The stuff I've mentioned is especially pertinent given that the vehicle was operational, you turned it off and left it, then returned at a later date to find that it wouldn't co-operate. Vans aren't clever and only fail when doing nothing for a limited number of reasons. One of which is corroded connections.

Got your message loud and clear Tony...said in a grateful manner! I'll post voltage values under starting conditions from battery terminals / earths; hopefully that'll help understand what's going on.
Very much a learning process me trying to rationalise what, at first, seemed a relatively easy issue to solve - if only!

As I stated in my post # 2 - I'm still going with poor voltage / bad earth(s) - especially as the '' dancing instrument panel '' is still dancing . . .

I do hope so too, I really do! But I'd dearly love to know where my elusive duff earth is.

Just to add my two penneth worth . Last year my battery ran itself down to just a click on ignition ,when i fitted a new battery the dashboard instruments started dancing and the engine turned over but would not start . After trying and failing to dismantle the immobilizer we cured the problem by resetting the alarm and recoding the keys through the alarm pad . The guy who figured this out was Paul Chamberlain at Northants Motorhome Services Tel: 01604 460332 Mob : 07751 887341 . My vehicle is 2.8 JTD 2004 with Sigma alarm . All the codes had been wiped out by the discharged battery

Having contacted TOAD they too advised I reset the system by entering the personal code, I have done, and it hasn't made a difference. It indicates via the LED it is arming and disarming...the alarm side maybe, but I do have a concern the immobiliser side may be a issue.
A good few years ago son had a car that wouldn't start, that was fitted with an aftermarket alarm set-up, that too indicated it was operating correctly. The system was removed and the car started.

Hopefully I can get a few hours to dig further tomorrow and carry out a few of the checks that have already been suggested.
I'm also going to order the "multieuscan" which apparently is a useful & comprehensive piece of diagnostic software - anyone any experience of this?

As always, hugely appreciate the time taken by you good people in providing advice - thank you

David (still got some hair left!)

 

[wanderer]

It did not make any difference by re-entering the personal code , if you ring your alarm company they might talk you through the process as all keys have to be reset

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[jac-in-a-box]

It did not make any difference by re-entering the personal code , if you ring your alarm company they might talk you through the process as all keys have to be reset

Hmm, not sure if we have terminology issue's here...I have two key fobs, not physical keys - your system may have an actual key? Both my fobs have been matched to the system with the unique personal code and although the dash LED shows red for armed and green for disarmed, I'm not totally convinced...then I have been wrong in the past and could well be again!

With a tracker fitted, the Fiat OE immobiliser and this TOAD system with two additional immobiliser circuits I'd be happy to lose the TOAD, it is now 10/11 years old, and fit a more up to date alarm system - and possibly more reliable!
It also seems that ageing after market systems are considered a PIA when it comes to non-start issues.

Hopefully I can grab an hour or two and get some simple battery /earth continuity checks completed today

David

 

[wanderer]

I am talking about the vehicle ignition keys having to be coded into the system

 

[jac-in-a-box]

Just to add my two penneth worth . Last year my battery ran itself down to just a click on ignition ,when i fitted a new battery the dashboard instruments started dancing and the engine turned over but would not start . After trying and failing to dismantle the immobilizer we cured the problem by resetting the alarm and recoding the keys through the alarm pad . The guy who figured this out was Paul Chamberlain at Northants Motorhome Services Tel: 01604 460332 Mob : 07751 887341 . My vehicle is 2.8 JTD 2004 with Sigma alarm . All the codes had been wiped out by the discharged battery

I am talking about the vehicle ignition keys having to be coded into the system

Sorry but a little lost! The first quote with "resetting" / "recoding" / "alarm pad" and Sigma alarm is different from my system.
Second quote surely applies to the OE immobiliser and the ignition key with transponder? But thanks for your thoughts though

David

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[jac-in-a-box]

Time for an update...

We're burning diesel, lots of smoke and ash - more on that later

Had a few hours to do some more tinkering and follow the good advice given earlier. As the thoughts seemed to indicate earthing issue's I made a "daisy chain" earth harness linking battery neg >driver side inner wing>inlet manifold>gearbox>passenger side inner wing.
Found a few more engine type sensors and cleaned the connectors.
The loom running along the inner passenger wing looked tatty and the cloth tape had worn away by being rubbed by the base of the air filter - one small wire had its insulation rubbed away. Clean, solder and heat-shrink sorted that.

I'd also picked up a bit of info' on Ducato starting problems related to the cam position sensor, apparently it's mounted too low in relation to pick up point on the camshaft drive pulley. This can cause difficult starting/no-start situations, raised the sensor by around 3mm with washers.

I still harboured doubts about this TOAD system...managed to tease out the control unit and masses of wire. A look at the cables revealed another chaffed cable from the alarm control unit and that appeared to rubbed through by the metal casing. Another solder job and I thought I'd attempt a start.
When the TOAD was disarmed there was a click from the control box which I hadn't heard before. Turned key and it burst into life...god, it was rough so quickly stopped.
A quick check and nothing had been left off. Started again, really rough and obviously wasn't firing on all cylinders - air in fuel system? A quick stab of accelerator, huge clouds of smoke, nearly stalled and then blew out a massive cloud of ash, but quickly settled down to it's familiar smooth idle.

I had the air filter and intercooler inlet/outlet pipes off, they had been stuffed with paper towel. I thought I'd removed them all before starting...hmm, no I hadn't! - not enough bundles of towel for the number of holes I bunged up. Looks as though I hadn't removed the wad of towel either from inlet manifold or turbo inlet. A quick look down inlet manifold and turbo inlet pipe and nothing to be seen. I'd guess it was the turbo that shredded the paper, blew it around the system and into the engine Tomorrow it's off with the pipes again to make sure there's no lumps lurking.

So what was the issue? Nothing I could put my finger on for sure, could well be the new earth loom cured it - I've said it before, I'm 100% sure I'd got all the original earth's and they were spotless. Doubt it was anything to do with cam shaft sensor. Was it the chaffed wire that seemed to be shorted on the alarm control unit, or the iffy wire in the n/s engine compartment loom? Whatever it was, the TOAD system is going, I'll have it professionally removed and install a modern alarm only system. No need for an additional two immobiliser circuits when the OE one works and I've a tracker too.

I'd like to thank you all for your contributions, they gave me the confidence to get stuck in. I've learnt a lot and it's the first time I've worked on a diesel; well, one with all this electronic control. I've enjoyed it and it's only cost me pennies to sort!

Finally, before I managed to get the "white elephant" to run today, I'd decided to get this Multieuscan Fiat software diagnostic package. I spoke to a fellow, Mike West at Gendan (www.gendan.co.uk) great advice and the product seems very comprehensive...live data, module programming, simulation mode, fuel system pressure data as well as the code reading/clearing. Product code FESNOCAN costs £75.00 I'll give a review once I've had a play.

Enjoy your weekend all

David (still with most of my hair!)

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

The symptoms you describe would suggest that the alarm imobiliser circuit is failing. I have seen this before where the internal relay that the alarm operates to close the imobiliser circuits has rusted causing a volt drop to the original circuits.
Personally I would trace the alarm wiring ( usually all in black wires) back to where the original loom has been jointed and remove the imobiliser circuits and then see what happens.
just seen your reply and this looks like your movement of the toad unit has possibly improved the dodgy connections.

 

[Figaro]

I had the air filter and intercooler inlet/outlet pipes off, they had been stuffed with paper towel.

What the hell was going on there ? who would have done that and how come they wern`t spotted sooner

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[Jaws]

What the hell was going on there ? who would have done that and how come they wern`t spotted sooner

Jac did it himself while working on it.. He thought he had taken it all out but missed some

 

[jac-in-a-box]

The symptoms you describe would suggest that the alarm imobiliser circuit is failing. I have seen this before where the internal relay that the alarm operates to close the imobiliser circuits has rusted causing a volt drop to the original circuits.
Personally I would trace the alarm wiring ( usually all in black wires) back to where the original loom has been jointed and remove the imobiliser circuits and then see what happens.
just seen your reply and this looks like your movement of the toad unit has possibly improved the dodgy connections.

My thinking too, it'll have a new home in the bin soon.

What the hell was going on there ? who would have done that and how come they wern`t spotted sooner

Jac did it himself while working on it.. He thought he had taken it all out but missed some

Bold stuff - 'twas all my own work, honest guv...just as well I didn't use rags!

David (feeling slightly stupid)

 

[gus-lopez]

[QUOTE="Derbyshire wanderer, post: 1855154, member: 30753"
Personally I would trace the alarm wiring ( usually all in black wires) back to where the original loom has been jointed and remove the imobiliser circuits and then see what happens.
.[/QUOTE]
What Dw says. Quite simple to remove if you follow colour to colour. Just a bit time consuming.I took one out of a Mitsubishi, that showed similar symptoms to yours , years ago & ran perfectly after.

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