Fiat 2005 2.8 jtd - it won't start (1 Viewer)

[****]

That fuel solenoid is the fuel cutoff in case of accident I had driven to my house parked up, a week later going to the tunnel it wouldn't start. Reset is just pushing rubber top down


Joe

Now i think about it i had that in my Fiat Stilo and the reset was in the passenger footwell and it looks the same for the ducato

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/803246/Fiat-Ducato.html?page=69

 

[Wildbill]

Felt sure I'd looked at all the earths Bill - having just had a quick look this morning, there are two hefty earths comming direct from neg terminal of battery. One is a direct earth to the starter - that is spotless. The other goes under the battery tray, to where I'm not sure?
It's going to be a battery out job again to check; grrr!



Not 100% certain what you mean. If it's will the starter turn over on the key, yes it does. I've gone from nothing but a click when trying to turn the engine over, to an engine that rapidly spins but won't start.



I've got a strong feeling that I do have an immobiliser issue Jock - albeit that it's the aftermarket dual circuit one that's the culprit. The dash indicates the Fiat immobiliser is working correctly ie ignition on and the immobiliser light goes out after a second.





Alan & Boringfrog, are you referring to an aftermarket system? Sounds like it. I have a red/green light indication for alarm status...jump in cab, red light lit, key to start position, disarm alarm/immob on fob, led changes from red to green, turn key and it bursts into life...in it's past life!
It seems to be functioning according to LED sequence but I think, or hope, that one of the immob circuits is still affecting the supply to in tank fuel pump - I can't hear the pump.



Yes, heard this one emmitdb. Oddly enough one of the two cars trapped in my drive is an Audi...key fobs are nowhere near the m'home though!
But appreciate the tip

Snow, unbelievable snow, more than has ever laid in the last 2 or 3 winters has curbed my enthusiasm to play just now. Plenty of time to mull over the problem.
*Need to find where this large 2nd earth cable from battery goes and check it out.
*check there is power to lift pump and it's associated fuses / relays. Bridge the inertia fuel cut-off switch
*if none of that works, attempt to remove the aftermarket alarm/ immobiliser...twitches me a little. With unmarked and many same coloured wires from the alarm unit, I need to be sure I get the right ones!

Genuinely welcome all the useful advice offered so far. If there is anything else I should consider, please let me know
Finally, a decent schematic of the electrical system for starting/ fuel control would be a god send - anyone please?

Thanks, David

Felt sure I'd looked at all the earths Bill - having just had a quick look this morning, there are two hefty earths comming direct from neg terminal of battery. One is a direct earth to the starter - that is spotless. The other goes under the battery tray, to where I'm not sure?
It's going to be a battery out job again to check; grrr!



Not 100% certain what you mean. If it's will the starter turn over on the key, yes it does. I've gone from nothing but a click when trying to turn the engine over, to an engine that rapidly spins but won't start.



I've got a strong feeling that I do have an immobiliser issue Jock - albeit that it's the aftermarket dual circuit one that's the culprit. The dash indicates the Fiat immobiliser is working correctly ie ignition on and the immobiliser light goes out after a second.





Alan & Boringfrog, are you referring to an aftermarket system? Sounds like it. I have a red/green light indication for alarm status...jump in cab, red light lit, key to start position, disarm alarm/immob on fob, led changes from red to green, turn key and it bursts into life...in it's past life!
It seems to be functioning according to LED sequence but I think, or hope, that one of the immob circuits is still affecting the supply to in tank fuel pump - I can't hear the pump.



Yes, heard this one emmitdb. Oddly enough one of the two cars trapped in my drive is an Audi...key fobs are nowhere near the m'home though!
But appreciate the tip

Snow, unbelievable snow, more than has ever laid in the last 2 or 3 winters has curbed my enthusiasm to play just now. Plenty of time to mull over the problem.
*Need to find where this large 2nd earth cable from battery goes and check it out.
*check there is power to lift pump and it's associated fuses / relays. Bridge the inertia fuel cut-off switch
*if none of that works, attempt to remove the aftermarket alarm/ immobiliser...twitches me a little. With unmarked and many same coloured wires from the alarm unit, I need to be sure I get the right ones!

Genuinely welcome all the useful advice offered so far. If there is anything else I should consider, please let me know
Finally, a decent schematic of the electrical system for starting/ fuel control would be a god send - anyone please?

Thanks, David[/QUOTuve
Live feed to pump solenoid see if it starts diseal only need fuel and compresion

 

[Wildbill]

Di
Diseal only need fuel and compression to run live feed to pump solenoid and see if it starts
Bill

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[Jaws]

Ummmm.. Is the motor spinning over faster than normal ?

 

[jac-in-a-box]

You been for a look round the Fiat forum?

http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/

Yes, dug through all the ducato stuff - not a lot apart from aftermarket alarms/immobs can be a headache when problems arise - I can confirm that!

@jac-in-a-box. David, I can confirm that our problem was caused by the failure of the standard factory fitted Fiat immobiliser.

Jock

thanks Jock. Reading back on your posts, your m/home is a Tdi rather than JTD? If so, a different OE immob' is fitted which functions differently to the JTD system. I believe it can be disabled if needed whereas the JTD version can't due to its integration with the ECU. Of course that's not to say my OE immob' hasn't done similar, but the indications are that it is working.

That fuel solenoid is the fuel cutoff in case of accident I had driven to my house parked up, a week later going to the tunnel it wouldn't start. Reset is just pushing rubber top down

Joe

Got that Joe - I've deliberately tripped and reset mine. Appears to reset just fine, again that's not to say it's working - the plan is to bypass it.

Ok.. Just a thought..

Have you actually checked the voltage across the battery while the key is turned ?

It is far from impossible the battery has suffered an internal break between plates.. When that happens you usually get enough juice to see a light on but thats about all you do get !

Yes John, tried with new battery which I'm confident is in full health - it's the same as the one in my sons 4lt BMW, I've tried it on that and his car starts perfectly. The voltage drop - yes there is one, a big one. which makes me think I may have an issue with starter solonoid or indeed the starter.
Before I stripped the starter the battery voltage dropped to 0.8 volts and stayed that way until there was a large clunk which appeared to be the starter solonoid disengaging. This would last for up to 30secs. Since the starter was stripped and bench tested, there is a voltage drop but nowhere as much as before...can't recall the actual figure, but seemed reasonable considering the starter is now functioning.

Now i think about it i had that in my Fiat Stilo and the reset was in the passenger footwell and it looks the same for the ducato

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/803246/Fiat-Ducato.html?page=69

yes, same one...intend to bypass it and see what happens.

Di

Diseal only need fuel and compression to run live feed to pump solenoid and see if it starts
Bill

It's part of the plan Bill

Ummmm.. Is the motor spinning over faster than normal ?

Think I know what you maybe suggesting John - loss of compression? I've found a big socket (and bar) and turned engine over by hand, healthy "bounce" suggests that's not an issue!

All good stuff guys, thank you A day spent pondering what's going on leaves me feeling confident I have a sensible plan to work through; just hope it yields the results I want!

David

 

[Jaws]

Think I know what you maybe suggesting John - loss of compression? I've found a big socket (and bar) and turned engine over by hand, healthy "bounce" suggests that's not an issue!

Well yes and no..
It was spinning over faster than normal I would be thinking cam belt snapped !
with no valves opening and nowt being drawn in it would appear low compression ..
The chances of loosing compression in all the pots all at once after just sitting there is remote to say the least... but a duff cam belt on the other hand.....

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[denisejoe]

Chances are you would hit a valve if the belt went

Joe

 

[Jaws]

Yes.. but as nothing up there would be moving after the event............

 

[jac-in-a-box]

Belt and associated kit have only covered a few hundred miles since replacement with all OE parts...confident there is no issue there, but I'll check all the same

David

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[MikeandKath]

Hi. Let's try my thinking??
The engine is turning over fast enough-- so battery,starter,solenoid and wiring must be ok.
Compression is ok-- you checked by turning it over with a socket/bar.
So it only leaves the fuel system--- Does smoke come out of the exhaust when you are trying to start it--- I would think not otherwise it would start .
So :
1. Is the immobiliser light on?
2. Is the fuse for the fuel pump ok?
3. Is their power to the fuel pump solenoid when ignition is on? If all is ok then
4. Are the injectors spraying when you turn it over
5. If they are not spraying the fuel solenoid needs checking.

Hope this helps

Mike

 

[jac-in-a-box]

Hi. Let's try my thinking??
The engine is turning over fast enough-- so battery,starter,solenoid and wiring must be ok.
Compression is ok-- you checked by turning it over with a socket/bar.
So it only leaves the fuel system--- Does smoke come out of the exhaust when you are trying to start it--- I would think not otherwise it would start .
So :
1. Is the immobiliser light on?
2. Is the fuse for the fuel pump ok?
3. Is their power to the fuel pump solenoid when ignition is on? If all is ok then
4. Are the injectors spraying when you turn it over
5. If they are not spraying the fuel solenoid needs checking.

Hope this helps

Mike

Thanks Mike, that's the train of thought I'm on, but I've got a few extra's.

Answers so far:
1. OE immob' light goes out when key turns to 1st position. As it should.
2. Fuel pump fuse, fuse F21 (15A) in engine bay fuse box is OK

Remainder 3,4&5 need to confirm. BUT the fuel pump solenoid No3 and fuel solenoid No5 - are you taking the same thing?
Without either a fuel flow / electrical start diagram it's difficult to know if slightly different terminology is being used to describe the same thing!
I'm assuming, the inertia switch (rear bulkhead near battery) is the same as the fuel pump solenoid, No3 on your list, is also the same as fuel solenoid No5 on your list? Or have I got another solenoid to look for.

For now, again assuming, if I was to check for fuel at the injectors, No4 on your list, I wouldn't see any because I cannot, nor anyone else, hear the in-tank fuel lift pump working...if that's not working when the key is turned to the first position (MAR on the ign' switch) nothing else will?

An assumption again - I hate having to do that, I'd have thought that although the fuse for the fuel pump is OK, there is surely a relay between fuse and the in-tank lift pump? There are relays in the fuse box where the pump fuse is, which one is it!

I'll leave out that as I do have a suspicion that the aftermarket alarm/immob' is a cause. For now I'll see if I can establish that I have power where needed to the fuel system components...if not I'll look at the alarm/immob'

Thanks

David

 

[MikeandKath]

Hi. Yes I was talking about the fuel shut off solenoid. You do not say whether there is smoke out of exhaust when you try to start it The fuel pump should not work all the time , only when there is a pressure drop due to the fuel in the lines being used.
Mike

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[gloworm]

Is it worth trying a 5 ltr can of diesel connected to diesel filter outlet pipe, that will by pass fuel pump and give you some idea of where your problem lies.
Best of luck.

Etic

 

[jac-in-a-box]

Hi. Yes I was talking about the fuel shut off solenoid. You do not say whether there is smoke out of exhaust when you try to start it The fuel pump should not work all the time , only when there is a pressure drop due to the fuel in the lines being used.
Mike

Thanks Mike - glad that I'm only looking for one solenoid!

Managed to get an hour or so to have a further tinker. So:
* Battery fully charged - been on a CTEK for last few days.
*Attempt to start, nothing but a click followed by another dancing instrument needles episode.
*Connect meter to battery, 12.8v, attempt to start, voltage dropped to 0.4 volts and stayed that way until there was a "clonk " voltage returned to normal. Have I got a starter solenoid issue? All connections are perfect!
* Had another attempt at a start, grabbed large red positive lead from battery to starter - with voltmeter still connected, gave pos' lead a wiggle (it's tight on the battery fuse plate) a clonk again and battery voltage restored from 0.4 to 12.7 volts...hmm.
*Split charge relays/fuse box/cable are tie-wrapped to main positive cut tie wraps and separated the two cables. Tried starter again - same think, starter didn't turn, solenoid clicked and voltage dropped. This time wiggled the cables with the split charge relay, another clunk and voltage returned to 12.7v...why should the split charge cable/relays cause the problem?
*Removed the two split charge relays and tried starter again - it turned engine over, wasn't sluggish, but it would start.
*Removed access panel in cab floor and exposed wiring to in-tank lift pump...with ignition on it whirs away for 20 seconds or so (must be the quietest pump ever!) At least I know I have power to the pump, there's fuel in the tank - need to find out if it's getting from filter to the rest of the system.

The head scratching and sense of bafflement goes on...how on earth does the split charge circuit affect the starting? I've pulled both relays apart on looks to have suffered water damage, but the contacts look OK. No big deal to get replacements.

I've removed the engine covers to expose the injectors - I've a feeling they're getting any fuel, there is no white smoke when cranking.
Looking at the fuel supply rail, there's a large electrical "lump" - is that a pressure switch? Guessing again, would a minimum pressure be needed to be sensed to get the ECU to trigger the injectors? Have I got insufficient pressure?

From the fuel filter to injectors, what other components does the fuel have to flow through - anything else to look at once I've established I can get fuel out of the filter?
2 hours of googling and I can't find a fuel system schematic for a JTD engine - anyone help with that please? I'm on a steep learning curve here

Is it worth trying a 5 ltr can of diesel connected to diesel filter outlet pipe, that will by pass fuel pump and give you some idea of where your problem lies.
Best of luck.

Etic

Thanks Etic - sensible answer; yes, that's something to try depending on what I find. The non-sensible answer; 5lts of diesel and a box of matches might just get rid of my headache!

As always folks, any thoughts on what's going on will be appreciated

David

 

[john1953]

Just undo a couple of injector pipes at the injectors, get someone to turn the engine over and see if it's spurting fuel, at least you will know if it's delivering fuel,.
Sorry if it's already been mentioned .

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[gloworm]

Oh no not the matches, it must be frustrating David I'm sure you,'ll sort it.

Eric

 

[JockandRita]

The non-sensible answer; 5lts of diesel and a box of matches might just get rid of my headache!

Jock.

 

[tonyidle]

* Battery fully charged - been on a CTEK for last few days.
*Attempt to start, nothing but a click followed by another dancing instrument needles episode.
*Connect meter to battery, 12.8v, attempt to start, voltage dropped to 0.4 volts and stayed that way until there was a "clonk " voltage returned to normal. Have I got a starter solenoid issue? All connections are perfect!
* Had another attempt at a start, grabbed large red positive lead from battery to starter - with voltmeter still connected, gave pos' lead a wiggle (it's tight on the battery fuse plate) a clonk again and battery voltage restored from 0.4 to 12.7 volts...hmm.


David

You need to be very specific when describing what happened. If your meter was connected to the actual battery terminals (and not to the connecting clamps) then the dramatic voltage drop when attempting to start is caused by a discharged or faulty battery.

If your meter was connected to the battery connection clamps then the dramatic voltage drop when attempting to start is caused by a discharged or faulty battery or a faulty connection between the clamps and the battery posts.

Connections other than the one to the starter and those to the base vehicle electrics are irrelevant and cannot cause the fault you are experiencing.

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[jac-in-a-box]

You need to be very specific when describing what happened. If your meter was connected to the actual battery terminals (and not to the connecting clamps) then the dramatic voltage drop when attempting to start is caused by a discharged or faulty battery.

If your meter was connected to the battery connection clamps then the dramatic voltage drop when attempting to start is caused by a discharged or faulty battery or a faulty connection between the clamps and the battery posts.

Connections other than the one to the starter and those to the base vehicle electrics are irrelevant and cannot cause the fault you are experiencing.

Thanks Tony, every day's a learning day!

Meter was connected to: negative to terminal clamp and pos' to the fuse plate which is clamped direct to pos' terminal. Getting a meter lead direct to the pos' terminal with this awkward arrangement fuse mounting Fiat use's isn't going to be easy - but I'll try.
I'm 100% confident that the battery is fine, in fact I have now have two - however, I'll get them checked out by an auto electrician to confirm.

Still don't understand that why I couldn't get the s/motor to turn until I removed the split charge relays hasn't got something to do with it all, but I do (I think/trying to) get in my head that base vehicle electrics are seperate things!

David

 

[mitzimad]

stick some easy star in the air intake if it trys to start then its a fuel problem

 

[tonyidle]

Thanks Tony, every day's a learning day!

Meter was connected to: negative to terminal clamp and pos' to the fuse plate which is clamped direct to pos' terminal. Getting a meter lead direct to the pos' terminal with this awkward arrangement fuse mounting Fiat use's isn't going to be easy - but I'll try.
I'm 100% confident that the battery is fine, in fact I have now have two - however, I'll get them checked out by an auto electrician to confirm.

Still don't understand that why I couldn't get the s/motor to turn until I removed the split charge relays hasn't got something to do with it all, but I do (I think/trying to) get in my head that base vehicle electrics are seperate things!

David

You moved something . You have a poor connection to the battery (if the battery is OK) and disturbing the connection helped (briefly). The worst thing that could happen is you move something and the fault disappears - because it will return. So tread carefully and try not to touch anything you don't need to. If you stick with my help in diagnosing the fault we will find it.

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[gloworm]

David, don't know if you are aware that, Toad have a technical support no, 0870 160 4433, they may be able to offer some advice regarding immobilized.

Eric

 

[Jaws]

Sounds like what I suggested previously. The battery has a broken link between plates.. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it wont !

Diesel test
Get a spanner on one of the injector pipes and crack it off a bit. Several turns in fact
Get someone to crank the motor over while you watch to see if you get any diesel out of the pipe..

 

[tonyidle]

You moved something . You have a poor connection to the battery (if the battery is OK) and disturbing the connection helped (briefly). The worst thing that could happen is you move something and the fault disappears - because it will return. So tread carefully and try not to touch anything you don't need to.

Sounds like what I suggested previously. The battery has a broken link between plates.. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it wont !

Diesel test
Get a spanner on one of the injector pipes and crack it off a bit. Several turns in fact
Get someone to crank the motor over while you watch to see if you get any diesel out of the pipe..

Agreed although his test was to the battery connectors so hopefully we can eliminate them by testing directly on the battery. If its faulty at that point you're right. Think fuel tests will have to wait until it actually spins.

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[jac-in-a-box]

You moved something . You have a poor connection to the battery (if the battery is OK) and disturbing the connection helped (briefly). The worst thing that could happen is you move something and the fault disappears - because it will return. So tread carefully and try not to touch anything you don't need to. If you stick with my help in diagnosing the fault we will find it.

Good stuff Tony...especially the we will bit! There's been a lot of support from folk on here and it gives me confidence - but read on.

David, don't know if you are aware that, Toad have a technical support no, 0870 160 4433, they may be able to offer some advice regarding immobilized.

Eric

Thanks for that Eric, they'll be getting a call.

Sounds like what I suggested previously. The battery has a broken link between plates.. Sometimes it will work, sometimes it wont !

Diesel test
Get a spanner on one of the injector pipes and crack it off a bit. Several turns in fact
Get someone to crank the motor over while you watch to see if you get any diesel out of the pipe..

Tried two batteries John the old and new - also the new one in a car which starts with no problems. I will get both away for a "drop test" or whatever it's called. But do feel confident, but happy to be proved wrong, that I don't have a battery issue; more so after todays efforts!

Today's results:

Two new relays fitted in the split charging circuit, attempt to start, engine turns over just as it should but no start and no smoke from exhaust - no fuel. I would've checked battery voltage during the start cycles but as engine turns over with no clicks and clunks, I'll check that later.

Thought it would be more productive to look at the fuel side.
tank lift pump OK, fuel entering and leaving the filter with fuel arriving at injection pump and fuel rail. Slackened an injector pipe, turned engine over and fuel is being delivered to injectors. How much should I get? It's not a huge amount nor a little.

So, another assumption, and probably a correct one, the injectors are not being triggered by ECU. That's another whole can of worms! There's a sensor on the fuel rail which I understand needs to see sufficient pressure generated by the injection pump to tell the ECU to trigger the injectors. Then there's a crank (and cam position?) sensor and probably a few others that need to come into play too for it all to burst into life.
To diagnose what's going needs some specialist equipment.
I've got a Maxscan tool which has been pretty good reading fault codes on our other cars, however connected to the motorhome it's telling me I've got 2 codes stored, but when I go to read them it tells me there are no codes!

Although the engine is turning over, I've still got the dancing instrument needles when the key is returned from the start position. I've also got a buzzing hazard relay at the same time...both stop when the ignition key is removed.
I could be wrong, but this aftermarket alarm/immob' makes me feel nervous - I'll give Toad a call. I have no idea what two circuits the immob' works on, I guess the only way to find out is to try and trace the cables...all being the same colour isn't going to make it easy! Given the system does have a connection to the indicators (and by extension) hazards system and the buzzing relay etc...well!

As always, any further advice and contributions are very welcome. While my enthusiasm remains, I'm starting feel the lack of testing equipment is going to be a real hindrance <sniff, sniff and more sniffs!>
Why, oh why, couldn't the God's of Fiat based motorhomes simply gifted me a grubby earth to deal with!

David

 

[MC 55 FUN]

Codes would be very useful - so a better OBD reader may identify them & allow you to read them

 

[Larby]

There have been 1 or 2 suggestions you try easy start (or brake cleaner). Can I suggest you take hose from air filter, get somone to turn it over and check if it puffs, (blows back from inlet), if so, valve timing problem. If it seems OK, squirt some easy start into the hose when someone attempts to start it. Should fire up and run irrespective of fuel or sensors. May have air-lock in fuel line ? Good luck

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[Jaws]

You know what,,, This is starting to sound like an earth fault
Have a look where the earthlead is from the engine to the chassis.
No matter HOW good it looks, unbolt it and move it to another point ( especially if the end going to the lump is on the gear box..

Now you are all sitting there saying I am batchy..
I have NO idea why it is as there really is no logical reason, but I have now seen the same thing on two Fiats.. One of which was Hilldwellers..
He too thought I was mad as a box of frogs but he moved the strap off the gearbox and on to a point on the engine and it worked straight away

All logic says that is toffee... The box is bolted straight to the lump, but @hilldweller will confirm I am not telling porkies !

 

[MC 55 FUN]

I suspected voltage / earth issues in my post # 2 - I could be wrong.

 

[jac-in-a-box]

Codes would be very useful - so a better OBD reader may identify them & allow you to read them

The Maxscan wasn't exactly cheap and works well with other cars. any recommendations?

There have been 1 or 2 suggestions you try easy start (or brake cleaner). Can I suggest you take hose from air filter, get somone to turn it over and check if it puffs, (blows back from inlet), if so, valve timing problem. If it seems OK, squirt some easy start into the hose when someone attempts to start it. Should fire up and run irrespective of fuel or sensors. May have air-lock in fuel line ? Good luck

I'll give that a go...all the induction and charge cooler pipework is currently scattered about, had to remove it all to get access to injectors. I doubt it's likely to be valve timing prob's. One day it starts, the next it doesn't...but nothing is ruled out!

You know what,,, This is starting to sound like an earth fault
Have a look where the earthlead is from the engine to the chassis.
No matter HOW good it looks, unbolt it and move it to another point ( especially if the end going to the lump is on the gear box..

Now you are all sitting there saying I am batchy..
I have NO idea why it is as there really is no logical reason, but I have now seen the same thing on two Fiats.. One of which was Hilldwellers..
He too thought I was mad as a box of frogs but he moved the strap off the gearbox and on to a point on the engine and it worked straight away

All logic says that is toffee... The box is bolted straight to the lump, but @hilldweller will confirm I am not telling porkies !

That earth connection has been checked and cleaned, but will, because it's not too difficult run a replacement cable to a new location. Have run a decent jumper cable from battery neg' to engine block without a change. I'm totally convinced that all the earths are good, very low resistance reading between battery neg' and engine block...but I'm game for the simple stuff!

"Batchy" what's that?!

I suspected voltage / earth issues in my post # 2 - I could be wrong.

I am hoping, I really am, that it turns out to be the case!

As always, thank you all for chipping in

David

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