Electric hook up in europe (1 Viewer)

[solitaire woman]

Sure this will sound daft to experienced motorhomers,but I'll ask anyway! With regard to electric hook up.
Am going abroad soon and just realised I havent made any provision for the fact my 3 pin plug wont fit abroad!! Am assuming the normal travel adapter isnt what I need, so what do I need? Also am slightly puzzled by this reverse polarity thing, what is it, how do I check it? Do I need a tester, if so where do I get all these things from?
Thanks.

 

[Decmac]

Continental plugs

Sure this will sound daft to experienced motorhomers,but I'll ask anyway! With regard to electric hook up.
Am going abroad soon and just realised I havent made any provision for the fact my 3 pin plug wont fit abroad!! Am assuming the normal travel adapter isnt what I need, so what do I need? Also am slightly puzzled by this reverse polarity thing, what is it, how do I check it? Do I need a tester, if so where do I get all these things from?
Thanks.

Hello, Just to add a bit of confusion to all this talk about 2/3 pin plugs, I want to ask you all out there the following question. Is it dangerous to use the continental plug outside when it is raining. Some guy said to me when I was in France that you can get enclosed plugs (if you know what I mean) that will not allow rainwater to make contact with the electrical parts. Your thoughts please. Thanks.

 

[pappajohn]

Hello, Just to add a bit of confusion to all this talk about 2/3 pin plugs, I want to ask you all out there the following question. Is it dangerous to use the continental plug outside when it is raining. Some guy said to me when I was in France that you can get enclosed plugs (if you know what I mean) that will not allow rainwater to make contact with the electrical parts. Your thoughts please. Thanks.

hi decmac,
it probably is but its dangerous to use the uk ones in the rain as well, they will let in water if it gets wet enough.Link Removed

you can buy "waterproof" enclosures that fit round the plug and socket if two leads are joined together.

buy from caravan shops or at shows.

i just wrap mine in a plastic carrier bag if i have to join two together, unless it rains hard enough to cause standing water/puddles it keeps it dry. :thumb::thumb:







Link Removed

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[moandick]

Now I am NOT an electrician BUT I ask you - would you put your hand into a bathful of water to collect an electric fire which had fallen into it?

Water conducts electricity - therefore if there is sufficient water on the connection to spread from the electric contacts to your hand position - in my view, you will end up with curly hair

The same goes for wrapping 'joints' or electric plug connections in a plastic bag - overnight you get condensation in the bag, which in turn may touch at least two contacts and either it will blow the fuses or possibly overheat and catch fire.

Maybe you are sensible enough to handle the connections with care but what of the small child who happens to stumble over it or rides their little metal toys over it etc., etc., etc.

 

[pappajohn]

i know what you mean about wrapping plugs Dick, but i'd rather a little bit of condesation than a full blown rain storm on me plug.

unplugging in rain isnt an option either....no more than unplugging my TV aerial in a lighting storm......if the aerial is gonna get hit, the tv's the last thing on my mind.


john.

 

[oldun]

The only time it MAY become a problem is if there is a fault on a very old electrical installation with no earths.

:

This is not true. One major and much more serious problem is that, with reversed polarity, the fuse inside the plug is now in the neutral lead and not the live.

This means that if the device takes an overload the fuse will blow but the device will remain live. This is potentially very dangerous.

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[oldun]

Please delete, duplicat post.

 

[oldun]

Hi Solitaire

In terms that I can understand - not being an electrician.....

You are already aware that some European sites use two pin plugs rather than three - the third pin being an earth lead.

Each English lead contains three wires - a live, a neutral and an earth - all of which must be located in their proper place in order to make the equipment work properly - and that is done by the shape of the plug - it will only fit into a socket in one particular way.

On a two pin site there is NO earth wire (just a live and a neutral) and that means that it is possible to fit the plug into the socket the 'wrong' way round - hence 'Reverse Polarity' - in theory it could mean that your appliances works backwards.

Seriously - it actually means that the appliance could still be live even when it is switched off.

Go to any caravan dealers where they have a spares shop and they will be able to supply a polarity tester and a specially wired cable which fits between your lead and the socket - and corrects the polarity to that which you need.

I have been touring Europe for about 40 years and I have only ever found a few sites with only 2 wires.

99% of all EU sites have three wires. The plug may only have two pins but there is always a means of earthing the caravan/motorhome.

The German Schuko plug has two pins with two side connections for the earth.This type of plug can be inserted two different ways so car must be taken to ensure correct polarity.

The French plug again only has two pins but it also has a hole to accommodate the earth connection which takes the form of a pin in the socket.

If anyone seriously believes that they are on a site with no earth there is one and only one correct procedure - NEVER NEVER NEVER connect to it.

Also the name of the site should published on every available Forum and the site reported to the relevant health and safety authority as it is illegal inside the EU.

 

[moandick]

I have been touring Europe for about 40 years and I have only ever found a few sites with only 2 wires.

99% of all EU sites have three wires. The plug may only have two pins but there is always a means of earthing the caravan/motorhome.

The German Schuko plug has two pins with two side connections for the earth.This type of plug can be inserted two different ways so car must be taken to ensure correct polarity.

The French plug again only has two pins but it also has a hole to accommodate the earth connection which takes the form of a pin in the socket.

If anyone seriously believes that they are on a site with no earth there is one and only one correct procedure - NEVER NEVER NEVER connect to it.

Also the name of the site should published on every available Forum and the site reported to the relevant health and safety authority as it is illegal inside the EU.

This is all very relevant information BUT I consider it a little unfair to quote my original post which started with the VERY clear statement -

"In terms that I can understand - not being an electrician."

I didn't say that it was technically correct - I simply explained it in terms that I understand - and I explained how to get over the problem in terms that I understand.

I have no argument with any expert trying to explain it properly - but please don't take my post out of context.

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[oldun]

Reversed polarity is dangerous even when there is a proper earth.

Granted everything will work OK when there are no faults, whatever the polarity, but the problem comes when everything is not OK.

Consider the case where there is fault producing a live connection to earthed casing.

What happens? Well the fuse in the plug may blow first and this will leave a very dangerous situation with reversed polarity.

Why?

Because the fuse is now in the neutral line and so it will be the neutral wire that is effectively cut leaving the live line into the device live.

This in turn means that the faulty device is still live and absolutely lethal.

Please get the facts right before quoting dangerous myths as facts.

Reversed polarity can be lethal and is best and easily avoided so why risk lives.

Can anyone please explain how a faulty earth can have any effect on reversed polarity.

It's very dangerous in its own right and will effect the working of the rcd but what is the effect on reversed polarity?

 

[scotjimland]

Consider the case where there is fault producing a live connection to earthed casing.

What happens? Well the fuse in the plug may blow first and this will leave a very dangerous situation with reversed polarity.

I'm sorry to contradict you but long before a cartridge fuse blows the RCD will have tripped thereby isolating the supply live and neutral..

Reverse polarity poses no danger unless you are stupid and decide to open up an appliance with it still plugged in but switched off... in which case you need your head examined not the polarity checked.

There is far more danger posed by dodgy DIY 12v wiring than by a reverse 230v EHU supply..

 

[oldun]

Sorry Scot... you are not entirely correct.

Many plugs will have low amp fuses and these will blow before the much higher rated devices in the mains units. The rcd should switch off first but i have had experience in France, on a french campsite where this does not always happen.

I agree that the chances of the situation developing is very small and there are much greater chances of getting into trouble through other means but I must repeat my assertion that the following statement is NOT correct.

"Reversed polarity is perfectly safe"

Why do you, a seemingly experienced person, promote potential danger when the situation can be removed very simply and cheaply? Stating that other things are far more dangerous is not a valid criticism.

We could equally say that replacing a 5 amp fuse by a 25 amp fuse will have no effect on the WORKING of a piece of electrical equipment so why put up with a fuse continually blowing when you can simply put in a larger fuse. The answer is simple - it's dangerous.

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[scotjimland]

Sorry Scot... you are not entirely correct.

Many plugs will have low amp fuses and these will blow before the much higher rated devices in the mains units. The rcd should switch off first but i have had experience in France, on a french campsite where this does not always happen.

Hi

I think you re confusing an RCD (residual current device) with a circuit protection breaker or CB .. an RCD trips with a very small leakage to earth which causes an imbalance between live and neutral.
All UK built vans have one installed as do all UK ehu outlets on sites.

there is a good explanation here. Residual-current device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hundreds of thousands if not millions of continental houses and camping vans have non polarity concious plugs without fuses .. are they all lethal .. I think not.. however , they do have double pole switching which is safer than our single pole design with a built in (dubiously rated) fuse in the plug.

I do not promote unsafe practices, but I have it yet to be shown to me how reverse polarity is dangerous other than the example I cited.

Jim

 

[pappajohn]

Hi

I think you re confusing an RCD (residual current device) with a circuit protection breaker or CB .. an RCD trips with a very small leakage to earth which causes an imbalance between live and neutral.

just looking back over the posts and the lack of an earth seems to crop up in a few.

as Jim pointed out an RCD works on the principal of current flowing through the live wire and the same amount of current returning through the neutral wire.....now if an appliance developes a fault then some of that current will leak to the earth, causing any metal parts to become live...the RCD will sense the difference in the live and neutral wire and will, within 30 milliseconds, trip off.

if there is no earth an RCD will not work leaving you open to a shock.

things like fridges, boilers, lights ect will work with reversed polarity but motors dont normally like it.
unless TV's, dish box's,DVD players ect have reverse polarity protection (blocking diode) the chances are they will be totalled as the electronics are designed to only work one way and will fry.

john.

 

[scotjimland]

if there is no earth an RCD will not work leaving you open to a shock.

things like fridges, boilers, lights ect will work with reversed polarity but motors dont normally like it.
unless TV's, dish box's,DVD players ect have reverse polarity protection (blocking diode) the chances are they will be totalled as the electronics are designed to only work one way and will fry.

Hi John

seems like I'm disagreeing a lot tonight ..

If there is no earth.. correct the RCD won't trip.. but by the same logic, where will you get a shock from.. if there is no earth.. ?

At one time there was a school of thought that to have NO earth in an installation was actually safer than having one, the neutral in this type of supply wasn't earthed at the supply transformer.. .. but it never caught on..

Single phase motors are not affected by reverse polarity, .. nor will electronic equipment 'fry' ..
I know of no circuit boards that run on 230v ac.. they are all supplied by a power supply unit which step down from mains 230vac to 12/15/20vac etc then rectified to DC

Rectifiers, battery charges etc are not affected by reverse polarity..

I have no experience of the Truma boiler which some say is affected but I find that hard to believe.. but I'll keep an open mind until someone explains how.

Jim

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[oldun]

What happens if the device is not earthed but you are resting against something that is? You will get a poke then.

My earlier comments re the dangers of reversed polarity.

I gather we can now be assured by the comments here that the RCD is totally infallible and so we need not worry about potential faults normally protected by them?

This sort of thinking would not have survived long with the health and safety bods at work.

All potential faults must be eradicated.

Surely you owe this to others.

 

[scotjimland]

What happens if the device is not earthed but you are resting against something that is? You will get a poke then.

This is too vague to answer properly..

do you mean the device is non earthed ie double insulated or has a faulty earth and what are you resting on that might be an earth .. the bbq or a deck chair ?

In either case reverse polarity plays no part..

my earlier comments re the dangers of reversed polarity.

I refer you too my previous posts..

I gather we can now be assured by the comments here that the RCD is totally infallible and so we need not worry about potential faults normally protected by them

Definitely not infallible.. and has nothing to do with reverse polarity, it either works or it don't..

This sort of thinking would not have survived long with the health and safety bods at work.

Probably not, and if the same bods came onto a Spanish camp site they would try and close it down.. come to think of it, close most of the French aires too

Surely you owe this to others.

The argument on reverse polarity has been running for as long as I can remember.. much like the A frame. gassing and HGV licences debates.. always good for +20 posts

Others must make up their own mind, if they feel it's important to have the 'correct' polarity then they must do as they see fit, if ''others'' can't make their mind up then let them also take the precautions.

I never have nor ever will check for reverse polarity .. because I am aware that I can't open the toaster up with it still plugged in .. I'm aware that the negative bus bar may be 'live' in the dist. box, .. I'm aware that it would be dangerous to poke my fingers in the dist. box with the EHU plugged in..

If others are so stupid then maybe they should give up motorhoming.

Best to agree to disagree ..

 

[stagman]

[People will pay anything up to £2000 for a sat dish,a few hundred for gps, the sky's the limit for the price of a van but for the sake of less than £40 won't protect against reverse polarity in their van.Most U.K.built vans are wired on similar lines as your own homes.Would you continue using your supplly in the house under reverse polarity conditions,don't think so.Fact if you have a bad earth on your accessories and a live goes to the cassing ,and you touch it chances are you are going to be Dead.Unless you wear insulated wellies.Why do people play about with electrics when they do not understand the basic principals of it and where it comes from I will never know.

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[scotjimland]

Why do people play about with electrics when they do not understand the basic principals of it and where it comes from I will never know.

I totally agree:

DO NOT PLAY WITH ELECTRICS IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ​

and even if you do understand

DO NOT PLAY WITH ELECTRICS​

I do not want to be accused of causing anyone's death .. I hope that is now clear .......

 

[CullenD]

Some more info

Hi all,

im new, but after reading all the info, I thought the follwing might help to bring new people up to speed like yourself. Feel free to point out if the below is misleading:

summed up nicely in:

http://jegs11.goods.officelive.com/EuroEHU.aspx

The above document takes into account the different plugs AND if reverse polarity is encountered (using the tester)

Its good cause it shows u the 3 types of plugs u can encounter in Europe (the UK just uses type 1)

Found an example of the equipment require for the above:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Caravan-camping-Reverse-polarity-Adapter-Set-tester-4-/350375770230?pt=UK_Cables_Hookups&hash=item519405f876

Cheers
Dave

 

[slobadoberbob]

I have an automatic reverse unit fitted

I carry a fair amount of different plug(s) and convertors that I have purchased from companies like Johns Cross Motorhomes on the A21 in Sussex (Plug he he ..Peter..get it PLUGoh... a while back I had VanBitz fit a proper unit in the RV that switches over as soon as it knows it is the wrong way.. All I do is plug the shore cable in... do not have to worry about blowing anything... many years ago in an old Mercedes Glendale we were in Andora and camped way up high and pluged in and blew the zig unit (remember them) ..anyway these days with so much expensive electrical equipment on the Winnibago we have invested in the right bit of kit to make sure that does not happen again.

Bob:thumb:

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[aba]

The 1 thing not mentioned on here is that in 99.9% of cases reverse polarity will have no effects at all on your motorhome or stuff inside.

The only time it MAY become a problem is if there is a fault on a very old electrical installation with no earths.

I know a fellow RVer who has an earth spike that they knock into the ground and is connected to the distribution board to be extra safe.

If anyone has had any equipment failures/problems due to rev pol can they let us know as I have never heard of any problems because of it.:thumb:

and by rights if you are using a generator it should be spiked into the ground as otherwise you have no earth connection at all.

andy:thumb:

 

[mick noe]

ok my two pennyworth no damage to any appliance with reversed polarity (240V ac mains) big damage to 12 V dc appliance.
must admit I never bother to check on site but as the supply fuses would then be on the neutral side bad news if live were shorted to earth(trapped/ cut cable around van etc this could be a fire risk .But as previously mentioned rccd will protect against eclectic shock .Best to check I suppose. you can simply buy very cheaply from most diy/ebay a tester that plugs into your van socket with neons that show polarity/ earth fault can be left plug in permanently if you wish.