EBL 30 and adding a lithium battery?

[liam007]

Hi everyone,

I’m new here (I think this might be my first post ). I have a new Hymer Free S600 (May this year I picked it up) and we’ve been struggling with 12v power capacity.

I’ve just bought a Fogstar 280ah lithium battery .

I’ve read a few long threads on how to change this so that I can maximise the charging capability and ensure safe and long lasting battery management, but…I’m still a bit confused!

Current System
EBL 30 (no lithium profile)
WA 121545 booster (has lithium profile)
LAS 1218-S AGM2
single Varna 95 ah battery

No solar yet, but looking at about 300w flexible panel to go on the pop top roof.

Question 1
what is the best system (we like to go off grid and prefer to not use ehu)?
Question 2
what is the most budget friendly way of safely installing the new battery?
Question 3
Having read other threads similar to this, the votronic vcc 1212-30 seems like a well regarded piece of kit, if I was to buy that would that be an effective and safe solution?

Looking forward to documenting the process on here to hopefully help others.

 

[eddie]

Avoid flexible panels if you can, abnormally high failure rate.

a 30 amp B2B is too small in my opinion for a 280 amp Lithium battery, one of the main advantages of lithium is the high recharge rate.

What is the recommended and the maximum rate rec by the manufacturer?

 

[liam007]

Hi Eddie thanks for replying. I was going to give you a call as you fitted my alarm earlier this year.

The max charging rate for the battery is 200a.

 

[Swifter]

Hello and welcome

 

[eurajohn]

You mention that you have no solar but you also say you have a LAS 1218-S AGM2 which is a solar regulator?

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[Googlebot]

The EBL is only 18 amp output, it will get there eventually but you must put it on a gel setting.

It won’t last long though charging a lithium that big regularly.

 

[liam007]

You mention that you have no solar but you also say you have a LAS 1218-S AGM2 which is a solar regulator?

I’m not expert (but I know I definitely don’t have solar) but I thought the LAS1218 was a charge booster and worked like an additional b2b.

The EBL is only 18 amp output, it will get there eventually but you must put it on a gel setting.

It won’t last long though charging a lithium that big regularly.

Thanks Googlebot I read through all 10 pages of your thread which is mostly where I’ve got t current knowledge from.

 

[Ditcha]

I’m not expert (but I know I definitely don’t have solar) but I thought the LAS1218 was a charge booster and worked like an additional b2b.


Thanks Googlebot I read through all 10 pages of your thread which is mostly where I’ve got t current knowledge from.

The LAS 1218-S AGM2 is a charger and the WA 121545 booster is a b2b which I think gives you up to 70a which is good for a b2b, the votronic vcc 1212-30 is only 30a.

 

[MisterB]

liam007

It wasn't you picking your battery up yesterday afternoon was it? I took time out from the NEC to collect my battery yesterday. I had ordered a 460ah but it was far too heavy for me to lift it easily, so I got a 300ah instead (the 280ah was better value though £ for £ !!, especially with the 15% duscount)

They were really helpful and we spent some time discussing the EVE cells, BMS etc and home storage batteries.

They may have convinced me to try and build my own system on a small scale at first .. which was the main purpose of my visit to collect instead of it just being posted!

 

[Lenny HB]

You mention that you have no solar but you also say you have a LAS 1218-S AGM2 which is a solar regulator?

The LAS 1218 is an additional mains charger that doubles the charge rate of the EBL to 36 amps unfortunately that one is AGM the voltage is too high for Lithium so would need to be disconnected.

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[liam007]

liam007

It wasn't you picking your battery up yesterday afternoon was it? I took time out from the NEC to collect my battery yesterday. I had ordered a 460ah but it was far too heavy for me to lift it easily, so I got a 300ah instead (the 280ah was better value though £ for £ !!, especially with the 15% duscount)

They were really helpful and we spent some time discussing the EVE cells, BMS etc and home storage batteries.

They may have convinced me to try and build my own system on a small scale at first .. which was the main purpose of my visit to collect instead of it just being posted!

No, I've not been able to get up there this year. Good luck with the self-build system.

The LAS 1218 is an additional mains charger that doubles the charge rate of the EBL to 36 amps unfortunately that one is AGM the voltage is too high for Lithium so would need to be disconnected.

Hi Lenny, I've read the info from you on other threads and it was really useful. What would be your thoughts on how to best add the lithium?

 

[Lenny HB]

As Eddie says flexible panels are best forgotten about also 300 watts is not much for 280ah of Lithium as the one of the main advantages of lithium is being able to fast charge them. You will probably be limited by roof space.

The mains charger can be use on the gel setting but it will never fully charge the battery and the 16 hour absorbtion is not good for lithium and you would need to ditch the LAS as the voltage on that will be too high.
If you are going to be using EHU I would fit one of the Votronic mains chargers with a proper lithium profile.

Check out the B2B carefully has it has a label on it that says AGM may just be the way it is set up or it could have been modified for Hymer. It can be set to 45 amps also has a 70 amp setting but I'm not sure of the profile on that one.
Also before going much above 30/45 Amps you need to check the spec on your alternator. On larger Hymers they normally fit an uprated alternator of around 160 amps this may not be the case on the Free being a small PVC.

 

[golly]

I have a Hymer Grand Canyon S and am going down to VanBitz next week to have 2 lithium batteries fitted fitted, . My present system seems similar to yours, the 1218 charger on mine doesn't appear to have a lithium profile, so I will probably have a new charger fitted as well, as you say the 121545 booster is already fitted. As to flexible solar, the van has a pop top so I had one fitted when I got the van and have had nothing but trouble with it, it failed totally about a year ago so I am going to see how it goes without solar, and if I need it will get a folding portable panel as trying to get the old panel off will be nightmare .

 

[MisterB]

I have a Hymer Grand Canyon S and am going down to VanBitz next week to have 2 lithium batteries fitted fitted, . My present system seems similar to yours, the 1218 charger on mine doesn't appear to have a lithium profile, so I will probably have a new charger fitted as well, as you say the 121545 booster is already fitted. As to flexible solar, the van has a pop top so I had one fitted when I got the van and have had nothing but trouble with it, it failed totally about a year ago so I am going to see how it goes without solar, and if I need it will get a folding portable panel as trying to get the old panel off will be nightmare .

Take a look at my post on NEC re Flexi panels - there MAY be an option ..

 

[liam007]

I'll definitely do some reading around on solar panels. I was looking at the CIGS/MIPV style which are meant to be better than previous.

The alternator is 14 V / 230 A so hopefully that should be no problem.

The shaudt b2b (wa121545) has got a selectable lithium profile on it. If I selected that, disconnected the LAS1218, do you think that would work?

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[Lenny HB]

The alternator is 14 V / 230 A so hopefully that should be no problem.

Are you sure that sounds very high?

The shaudt b2b (wa121545) has got a selectable lithium profile on it. If I selected that, disconnected the LAS1218, do you think that would work?

The LAS1218 is a mains charger and need disconnecting as it is AGM only.
As I said eairler check the B2B to make sure it's not been moded to AGM only. An email to Udo at Schaudt will probably give you the answer.

 

[liam007]

Are you sure that sounds very high?

I got it from my VIN build sheet, a quick google shows that many recent sprinters have alternators around that value (I tried to look but it was too low down under the engine and I couldn't see any markings on it).

An email to Udo at Schaudt will probably give you the answer.

I've sent Udo a message now to find out if it has been modded in any way.

I have a Hymer Grand Canyon S and am going down to VanBitz next week to have 2 lithium batteries fitted fitted, . My present system seems similar to yours, the 1218 charger on mine doesn't appear to have a lithium profile, so I will probably have a new charger fitted as well, as you say the 121545 booster is already fitted. As to flexible solar, the van has a pop top so I had one fitted when I got the van and have had nothing but trouble with it, it failed totally about a year ago so I am going to see how it goes without solar, and if I need it will get a folding portable panel as trying to get the old panel off will be nightmare .

Do you know exactly what work it will require or what parts will need changing out?

 

[Lenny HB]

I got it from my VIN build sheet, a quick google shows that many recent sprinters have alternators around that value (I tried to look but it was too low down under the engine and I couldn't see any markings on it).

Didnt know it was a Sprinter I thought the Free was on a Fiat.

 

[golly]

Do you know exactly what work it will require or what parts will need changing out?

I'm just on my way out, I'll get back to you later.

 

[liam007]

Didnt know it was a Sprinter I thought the Free was on a Fiat.

Most Free are on Fiat's but mine is a Free S and on the sprinter chassis.

I'm just on my way out, I'll get back to you later.

Thanks that would be appreciated.

I've just spoken to a reputable installer, who advised changing the 121545 to lithium and changing the ebl30 and LAS1218 to gel and dropping the battery in. I'm not so sure I feel overly comfortable with that.

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[liam007]

An email to Udo at Schaudt will probably give you the answer.

I've already had a reply from Udo, nothing has been altered/modified to the booster.

 

[golly]

Do you know exactly what work it will require or what parts will need changing out?

Hi, sorry for the delay
The plan is 2 x 110 Lithium batteries
Victron 50A smart charger
Victron smart shunt battery monitor
I'm also having a battery master fitted
plus all the associated bits and bobs.

hope that helps

 

[autorouter]

The inbuilt mains charger (Internes Lademodul) inside the EBL30 is an 18A smart charger, with an output that goes through the 'Internes Lademodul' fuse. Removing that fuse disconnects the charger output.

The LAS1218 is also an 18A smart charger, connected to the 2-way connector, Block7. That goes through the fuse 'Zusatz Ladegerat' (Auxiliary Charger) on the front panel of the EBL30.

18A is about the max current the connector pins will take, so if you want to fit a bigger mains charger (a good idea with Lithium) then it will need to go straight to the leisure battery, not through the EBL.

An alternative view is that you are rarely on EHU, and when you are it's probably good for 12 hours minimum. So no need to have a big charger that will charge from flat in a couple of hours. I have a Victron Blue Smart IP65 charger, 15A, which is fine for my requirements, and has a lithium setting. They do various outputs, including a 30A if you want it.

On the other hand, if you want to charge the batteries from a generator, or a vehicle EV point, you want a charger with the fastest charge rate to minimise the run time or the wait time. So many ways of looking at it, depends on what works for you.

 

[liam007]

Changeover Complete
I’ve swapped out the AGM for the fogstar 280ah lithium battery. All is working but not quite as I would like. The battery is connected up and working beautifully, we’ve just spent 3 nights away without hook-up and we used 45ah out of it.

The issue as I see it, is the charging of the battery. I know on ehu I have 2x18 amp chargers but neither have a lithium profile so I have switched it over to gel for the time being, but I am only seeing about 7-8amps whilst when driving the schaudt wa121545 booster which is apparently capable of 70amps is only delivering about 10amp. I have changed the profile to lithium and the charge rate to 70, is there anything else I can check or do to improve the charging of the B2B.

 

[Lenny HB]

Have you wired the B2B direct to the batteries or via the EBL?
With a 70 amp B2B it needs to be wired directly to the batteries and you may need to increase the cable size from Hymer's 16mm sq depending on cable length.

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[autorouter]

I am only seeing about 7-8amps whilst when driving the schaudt wa121545 booster which is apparently capable of 70amps is only delivering about 10amp. I have changed the profile to lithium and the charge rate to 70, is there anything else I can check or do to improve the charging of the B2B.

In addition to setting the lithium charging profile, I think you also need to set the correct input voltage curve for the alternator. I'm no expert, but looking at the manual there are 4 curves, C1 to C4. C1 & C2 are for Euro6 engines, presumably with a smart alternator. I think you need the C4 curve. Also do you have the input voltage sensor wire that goes into a connector on the B2B? This wire allows it to compensate for any voltage drop along the input wires. I'm not sure if that wire is optional or not. It's different to the optional temperature/voltage sensor wire for the leisure battery.

 

[Abgs]

Changeover Complete
I’ve swapped out the AGM for the fogstar 280ah lithium battery. All is working but not quite as I would like. The battery is connected up and working beautifully, we’ve just spent 3 nights away without hook-up and we used 45ah out of it.

The issue as I see it, is the charging of the battery. I know on ehu I have 2x18 amp chargers but neither have a lithium profile so I have switched it over to gel for the time being, but I am only seeing about 7-8amps whilst when driving the schaudt wa121545 booster which is apparently capable of 70amps is only delivering about 10amp. I have changed the profile to lithium and the charge rate to 70, is there anything else I can check or do to improve the charging of the B2B.

Did you ever figure out the B2B charging issue? I'm looking at doing the same, adding the same Fogstar 280ah battery to my Grand Canyon S which has the same electrical set up as your Free. i.e Schaudt WA 121545 booster, Schaudt EBL30, plus the extra Schaudt LAS1218-2 charger with a Lead and Gel profile.

 

[Rowls1958]

Hi Liam

I also have a 2022 Hymer Free S 600 and was thinking of installing the Fogstar Drift 230Ah Lithium battery. Hiw did you get on in the end ? Thanks

 

[MisterB]

My understanding was to switch the charger to lead acid profile if the charger wasn't configured with a lithium profile?

 

[Lenny HB]

My understanding was to switch the charger to lead acid profile if the charger wasn't configured with a lithium profile?

EBL's in later Hymers (from about 2016) don't have a standard lead setting just AGM or Gel. Although you can use the Gel setting I don't like the 16 hour absorbtion time.

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