Dusseldorf Caravan Salon 2019 thread (1 Viewer)

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funflair

funflair

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Interesting, so did they say who uses the leaky stuff?
Not many use Polystyrene hopefully but quite possibly in some budget vans the trouble s they still have wood as well so foam holding moisture and wood in the build are not a good mix, the interesting thing with PU vs blue XPS is that PU has better insulation properties as long as it stays dry, PhoeniX use PU and Morelo Concorde and N+B use XPS, of course a bit of moisture in any of those 4 vans wouldn’t cause a problem.

Martin
 

Lenny HB

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Interesting, so did they say who uses the leaky stuff?
Most mid range German vans like Hymer use PU, top range ones use the XPS and Brit vans use polystyrene as the need something to soak up the water that comes in.

Also even some mid range vans like Hymer use internal aluminium walls now.
 
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Anyone have an idea of when the shuttle into dusseldorf does its last return?
 
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Not many use Polystyrene hopefully but quite possibly in some budget vans the trouble s they still have wood as well so foam holding moisture and wood in the build are not a good mix, the interesting thing with PU vs blue XPS is that PU has better insulation properties as long as it stays dry, PhoeniX use PU and Morelo Concorde and N+B use XPS, of course a bit of moisture in any of those 4 vans wouldn’t cause a problem.

Martin


Surprised Phoenix use PU then. Really interesting experiment.
 
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Robert Clark

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I love them, hate pressure switches the problems I used to get with pressure switched water systems in my carvaning days I don't want to repeat.
You seriously love them ?
Everyone I know who’s got a Hymer has had problems with their taps.
Only know one person who had a pump failure.

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StephDeLux

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I had an interesting conversation (to me anyway) yesterday about the various foams used in Motorhomes, the photo below shows the blue XPS or styrofoam and also polystyrene,

View attachment 329150

The foam panels are sealed into the glass tank and filled with water in the centre, you can see that through the polystyrene the water level has equalised, even more interesting though was a demonstration of how the various foams XPS, polystyrene and PU pick up water from a humid atmosphere with the second two holding a lot of moisture while the blue XPS closes cell styrofoam remained bone dry.

What that says is if you get a bit of a leak in a van with PU or polystyrene foam it will hold the moisture and promote rot while the blue XPS will remain inert.

Martin

Reality is not as clear cut as the XPS sales people say, of course.

XPS is water-tight, that's for sure. But lumping together EPS and PU is more than misleading. PU can get damp after a very long time. EPS is like a sponge that would be very hard to dry.

XPS materials are generally worse insulators than PU. EPS worse than both. One exception is the RTM foam, a form of XPS that has the same insulation properties as PU. That's the one Carthago use, but I don't know any other constructor who uses RTM, but I have not looked at the really expensive MH brands.

Construction-wise, things are again very different.

EPS is the worst, with no usable structural strength. That means it is mandatory to have a wall made of a frame on which the GRP or aluminium is affixed. Since EPs is generally used for low-end MH, but not always, the frame is often made of wood. This is what is found on Hobby, Adria, most Dethleffs, most Bürstner, Carado, Sunlight, probably others.

XPS has a good structural rigidity. The MH constructors buy panels of XPS foam and glue aluminium or GRP sheets on the XPS panels. This gives a reasonably strong panel with good insulation characteristics. The panel frame can be either wood of other synthetic materials, depending on the constructor choice. Eura Mobil, Malibu and LMC, for example use XPS panel with wood-free construction. When selecting the XPS insulation as an option with Dethleffs, you still get a wood structure.

Then there is Carthago who uses RTM foam with aluminium glued on both sides. That gives a strong panel that does not need frames. However, on every Carthago and Malibu van I have seen, the external aluminium sheet show fine vertical lines, probably a consequence of the glue lines that bond the foam to the aluminium.

PU, as used by Hymer, is a different animal altogether because PU is both the foam and the glue and is not preconditioned as ready-made panels. Hymer place 2 1.4mm thick sheets of aluminium in parallel with a space of about 3cm between them and then inject pressurized liquid PU foam between them. The PU foam grows between the sheets, filling the tiniest irregularities and naturally bonds with the aluminium on 100% of the surface with a perfectly uniform bonding strength. PU foam being rigid once dry, this gives a very strong panel, with a perfect surface finish.

So, yes, XPS is more water tight than PU, but there are other factors to consider :)
 
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Impressive research thanks.

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funflair

funflair

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Reality is not as clear cut as the XPS sales people say, of course.

XPS is water-tight, that's for sure. But lumping together EPS and PU is more than misleading. PU can get damp after a very long time. EPS is like a sponge that would be very hard to dry.

XPS materials are generally worse insulators than PU. EPS worse than both. One exception is the RTM foam, a form of XPS that has the same insulation properties as PU. That's the one Carthago use, but I don't know any other constructor who uses RTM, but I have not looked at the really expensive MH brands.

Construction-wise, things are again very different.

EPS is the worst, with no usable structural strength. That means it is mandatory to have a wall made of a frame on which the GRP or aluminium is affixed. Since EPs is generally used for low-end MH, but not always, the frame is often made of wood. This is what is found on Hobby, Adria, most Dethleffs, most Bürstner, Carado, Sunlight, probably others.

XPS has a good structural rigidity. The MH constructors buy panels of XPS foam and glue aluminium or GRP sheets on the XPS panels. This gives a reasonably strong panel with good insulation characteristics. The panel frame can be either wood of other synthetic materials, depending on the constructor choice. Eura Mobil, Malibu and LMC, for example use XPS panel with wood-free construction. When selecting the XPS insulation as an option with Dethleffs, you still get a wood structure.

Then there is Carthago who uses RTM foam with aluminium glued on both sides. That gives a strong panel that does not need frames. However, on every Carthago and Malibu van I have seen, the external aluminium sheet show fine vertical lines, probably a consequence of the glue lines that bond the foam to the aluminium.

PU, as used by Hymer, is a different animal altogether because PU is both the foam and the glue and is not preconditioned as ready-made panels. Hymer place 2 1.4mm thick sheets of aluminium in parallel with a space of about 3cm between them and then inject pressurized liquid PU foam between them. The PU foam grows between the sheets, filling the tiniest irregularities and naturally bonds with the aluminium on 100% of the surface with a perfectly uniform bonding strength. PU foam being rigid once dry, this gives a very strong panel, with a perfect surface finish.

So, yes, XPS is more water tight than PU, but there are other factors to consider :)
Actually if I had posted the full article it doesn't "lump together" EPS and PU and indeed it shows PU up in a much better light than the EPS Polystyrene.

Interesting point you make about the way Hymer put the PU in the walls though as I didn't realise that they did it that way though I thought that the aluminium was more like 0.8 than 1.4mm.

Martin
 
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funflair

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Where there any prices given for the rufty tufty vehicles Martin? I’ve looked on their website and can’t find any pricing.
I don’t pay enough attention SORRY but of course there would be.

Martin

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We saw a few in hall 10 or 11 sd, we are back today working our way to hall 4 in you want I will take a few pics for you.
 
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Paddywack

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Where there any prices given for the rufty tufty vehicles Martin? I’ve looked on their website and can’t find any pricing.
200,000 euros and above last year. Remember before you rush out to buy one, that you've only got two kidneys, selling one is high risk option.

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Jul 29, 2007
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Chausson seems ahead of the pack with two drop down beds, but under the rear walk around you get a double vanity sink which seems to me to be a waste.
Price of a all terrain. Other cheaper or dearer models are available. Pics if you want them.
IMG_20190906_155522.jpg
IMG_20190906_155533.jpg
 
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Where there any prices given for the rufty tufty vehicles Martin? I’ve looked on their website and can’t find any pricing
Hehe I did exactly the same, I really like the idea of go anywhere expedition vehicles, I’m sure I found a website for a MAN 6x6 with all the tech, price tag $600,000 for brand new looked at so many I can’t remember the website. Fuel consumption well haven’t even looked into that? it does seem there’s not that many professional build jobs about.
 

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Yes, we’re interested in them. When I’ve looked online there seems to be a lot of variation in the standard of the interior. I guess it would be the same in terms of the general build quality too. We must get over to a show to check them out in person.

Thanks for the info :)

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I think there is more to it than just that. My impression is that the MH market is big, largely owned by Fiat and Mercedes has made a very well executed attack on Fiat. I wish the best to Fiat with their new model but they have a big fight on their hands.
It’s good that Fiat now has some serious competition that should improve their vehicles with the Ducato dash looking very old compared to the new Sprinter digital displays which are pin sharp. Interesting they are now offering a proper auto with option of 9 speed.
 

StephDeLux

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It’s good that Fiat now has some serious competition that should improve their vehicles with the Ducato dash looking very old compared to the new Sprinter digital displays which are pin sharp. Interesting they are now offering a proper auto with option of 9 speed.

I don't think they'll go back to 75% or 80% of the market they once enjoyed. Mercedes does not appear to be much more expensive like-for-like. Indeed, the new Tramp S series are priced exactly like the old Tramp CL that were Fiat-based, which is surprising.

Add to that the new 9 speed auto gearbox is much more expensive at Fiat than at Mercedes and they are identical, made by ZF.

Having a price-competitive Mercedes competition is a whole new situation for Fiat.

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I don't think they'll go back to 75% or 80% of the market they once enjoyed. Mercedes does not appear to be much more expensive like-for-like. Indeed, the new Tramp S series are priced exactly like the old Tramp CL that were Fiat-based, which is surprising.

Add to that the new 9 speed auto gearbox is much more expensive at Fiat than at Mercedes and they are identical, made by ZF.

Having a price-competitive Mercedes competition is a whole new situation for Fiat.
The real test long term will be which of these to come up with an effective hybrid or fully electric van chassis and my money would be on Mercedes.
 
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It’s good that Fiat now has some serious competition that should improve their vehicles with the Ducato dash looking very old compared to the new Sprinter digital displays which are pin sharp. Interesting they are now offering a proper auto with option of 9 speed.
It depends what you are looking for and agree the new Spinter dash is very impressive. Personally I feel the new Hymer’s are mostly about Mercedes with the motorhome aspect, Hymer, coming in as second fiddle. Fiat are also more accessible in Europe, parts and service and are a load cheaper to service.
 
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At Ediger at the moment overlooking the Mosel, no internet except via freifunk-myk.de but its crap but its free so I supposed I can't complain. Off to Trier Treviris stelplatz tomorrow any night life in that area?

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Lenny HB

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It depends what you are looking for and agree the new Spinter dash is very impressive. Personally I feel the new Hymer’s are mostly about Mercedes with the motorhome aspect, Hymer, coming in as second fiddle. Fiat are also more accessible in Europe, parts and service and are a load cheaper to service.
Last year Hymer did a deal with Mercedes and they were the first converters to get the new FWD Merc, apart from a couple of older models all the Hymer's on Mercs are FWD. Looking at other manufacturers that offer both Fiat & Merc it's only €2000 extra for the Merc. The older RWD used to be around 10k extra.
 
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Last year Hymer did a deal with Mercedes and they were the first converters to get the new FWD Merc, apart from a couple of older models all the Hymer's on Mercs are FWD. Looking at other manufacturers that offer both Fiat & Merc it's only €2000 extra for the Merc. The older RWD used to be around 10k extra.
I am still not sure why you would want to pay an additional £2k for a Merc engine if the Motorhome is not thought through - certainly when we were looking at the new Hymer model early last year, a modern comfort something or other, we personally felt the Hymer Motorhome that partnered the Mercedes engine was not impressive - for our requirements anyhow. Understanding that of course there is a market for those that want the Mercedes brand. We might have briefly fallen into that brand association having had Mercedes in our business and private vehicles. I assume the RWD version was a lot more expensive as you have a drive shaft running the length of the vehicle - maybe but I am not an engineer.
 

Lenny HB

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I am still not sure why you would want to pay an additional £2k for a Merc engine if the Motorhome is not thought through - certainly when we were looking at the new Hymer model early last year, a modern comfort something or other, we personally felt the Hymer Motorhome that partnered the Mercedes engine was not impressive - for our requirements anyhow. Understanding that of course there is a market for those that want the Mercedes brand. We might have briefly fallen into that brand association having had Mercedes in our business and private vehicles. I assume the RWD version was a lot more expensive as you have a drive shaft running the length of the vehicle - maybe but I am not an engineer.
Have to agree the interiors appear to have gone downmarket nothing in the range excites me apart from the new SLC chassis.

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