Ducato e has arrived (1 Viewer)

[2GB Racing]

I may have missed this before but I see that an all electric Ducato has been announced with many configurations for size and range etc

 

[tonka]

3 years ago they did a motorhome on one of their chassis
Hopefully things have improved a bit since then ref range etc.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Interesting Parkers' review:

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/fiat/ducato/2021-e-ducato-review/

At that price for the base van with the bigger 79Kwh battery I doubt if a converted PVC will be this side of £100k when it reaches the dealers. Range and payload will be its main problems.

I would prefer a hybrid self-charging EV Ducato even if the engine was petrol. That would improve the range and performance considerably.

 

[Rob Turner]

No range on them.
OK for City Council run arounds

 

[andysam]

Claimed 230 mls, so really 150 mls - https://www.fiatprofessional.com/uk/ducato-electric-van/photo-gallery

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[Blue Moon]

Claimed 230 mls, so really 150 mls - https://www.fiatprofessional.com/uk/ducato-electric-van/photo-gallery

and that’s with the larger dual battery packs, the single pack is c100 miles as a bare van, convert it and it’ll be down to 80 miles. Add your holiday gear and passengers and it’ll be down to 60 miles. Drive it like you stole it and it’ll be less than 50!!! That’s if you can actually convert one to an MH as the payload is hopeless. Complete waste of time as a motor home IMHO.

 

[Jonno1103]

Interesting Parkers' review:

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/fiat/ducato/2021-e-ducato-review/

At that price for the base van with the bigger 79Kwh battery I doubt if a converted PVC will be this side of £100k when it reaches the dealers. Range and payload will be its main problems.

I would prefer a hybrid self-charging EV Ducato even if the engine was petrol. That would improve the range and performance considerably.

What would be the point? Hybrid's produce a lot more CO2 than petrol engines. For me that defeats the object, may as well stick to a euro 6 Final diesel which is ULEZ compliant.

 

[SpeedyDux]

What would be the point? Hybrid's produce a lot more CO2 than petrol engines. For me that defeats the object, may as well stick to a euro 6 Final diesel which is ULEZ compliant.

It depends on your idea of what a hybrid is. In the case of a self-charging hybrid, that is essentially an EV that uses the ICE to keep its relatively small HV battery charged. It uses a KERS when braking and going downhill, to also generate electricity to charge its HV battery. In stop-start traffic the ICE is hardly used. Overall, this type of hybrid can easily be 30% more fuel efficient, so by definition emits that much less CO2. I think it is a good stepping-stone technology that would also have advantages in terms of range and payload, until the next generation e-Ducato. I don't expect Stellantis will develop a true hybrid Ducato based on the current X290, simply because they are banned from selling them in Europe after 2030, so there is not enough time to recoup the investment required and make a profit as well. That's a shame in my view.

I am stuck with my technologically somewhat long in the tooth Euro 6 diesel Ducato PVC. I think a replacement Ducato (not a facelift with a digital dash) is long overdue. The e-Ducato is too expensive for what is essentially a modified X290 instead of a brand new purpose-designed electric van.

 

[Jonno1103]

It depends on your idea of what a hybrid is. In the case of a self-charging hybrid, that is essentially an EV that uses the ICE to keep its relatively small HV battery charged. It uses a KERS when braking and going downhill, to also generate electricity to charge its HV battery. In stop-start traffic the ICE is hardly used. Overall, this type of hybrid can easily be 30% more fuel efficient, so by definition emits that much less CO2. I think it is a good stepping-stone technology that would also have advantages in terms of range and payload, until the next generation e-Ducato. I don't expect Stellantis will develop a true hybrid Ducato based on the current X290, simply because they are banned from selling them in Europe after 2030, so there is not enough time to recoup the investment required and make a profit as well. That's a shame in my view.

I am stuck with my technologically somewhat long in the tooth Euro 6 diesel Ducato PVC. I think a replacement Ducato (not a facelift with a digital dash) is long overdue. The e-Ducato is too expensive for what is essentially a modified X290 instead of a brand new purpose-designed electric van.

Not necessarily, which is why the EU is changing the way self charging hybrids are measured in 2027. Transport & Environment have conducted a real world study which shows they produce as much as 3 times as much CO2 & consume as much a 3 times the fuel than is advertised by manufacturers.

 

[SpeedyDux]

Not necessarily, which is why the EU is changing the way self charging hybrids are measured in 2027. Transport & Environment have conducted a real world study which shows they produce as much as 3 times as much CO2 & consume as much a 3 times the fuel than is advertised by manufacturers.

Can you post a link to that study please.

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[Folkranger]

What would be the point? Hybrid's produce a lot more CO2 than petrol engines. For me that defeats the object, may as well stick to a euro 6 Final diesel which is ULEZ compliant.

Don't confuse hybids with plug-in-hybrids. My phev (Merc car) in which I do mainly short journeys does 80% of it's miles on battery and when on petrol the hybrid assistance ensures that I get around 55mpg.

 

[Jonno1103]

Can you post a link to that study please.

Found this with a quick search, It's not the same article but is similar.

EU to change how plug-in hybrid CO2 emissions are measured

The climate ratings of plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEVs) are set to become a lot more realistic, according to Transport and Environment (T&E).

www.fleetnews.co.uk

 

[Guigsy]

Not necessarily, which is why the EU is changing the way self charging hybrids are measured in 2027. Transport & Environment have conducted a real world study which shows they produce as much as 3 times as much CO2 & consume as much a 3 times the fuel than is advertised by manufacturers.

The rules for way the fuel economy was measured ment for hybrids and plugin hybrids, you could start the test with a full battery and run it down over a relatively short test run. So it was possible to get silly MPGs that didn't reflect reality.

I'm interested in a series hybrid with a smaller engine just running as a generator to fill a smaller battery, with electric motors driving the wheels. The problem with motorhomes though if we're often running at high engine loads for extended periods. If you're in the motorway and driving into the wind, you're probably using over 100bhp. So a generator would need to be at least that big or your battery would drain and you'd be forced to slow down. To prevent it, you'd need virtually the same size engine that we already have, so efficiency gains would be small. So just like with BEV, the weight and poor aerodynamics mean series hybrids don't make a lot of sense for big vehicles.

 

[SpeedyDux]

The rules for way the fuel economy was measured ment for hybrids and plugin hybrids, you could start the test with a full battery and run it down over a relatively short test run. So it was possible to get silly MPGs that didn't reflect reality.

I'm interested in a series hybrid with a smaller engine just running as a generator to fill a smaller battery, with electric motors driving the wheels. The problem with motorhomes though if we're often running at high engine loads for extended periods. If you're in the motorway and driving into the wind, you're probably using over 100bhp. So a generator would need to be at least that big or your battery would drain and you'd be forced to slow down. To prevent it, you'd need virtually the same size engine that we already have, so efficiency gains would be small. So just like with BEV, the weight and poor aerodynamics mean series hybrids don't make a lot of sense for big vehicles.

OK, more details. Apologies for the long post below.

A 100 bhp ICE would be enough for a hypothetical self-charging hybrid MH because with a clever system (examples are to be found in hybrid Hondas and Toyotas) the electric motor assists the ICE, providing extra power for steep gradients and overtakes. With the Honda system the ICE is in direct drive to the wheels above @55 mph, in effect the same as a 6th gear ratio. It drops out again on downhill sections, effectively coasting, using no fuel. It is so seamless you cannot feel the transition between the 3 power modes. All selection is automatic to use the optimal power mode, very clever. These companies have been developing hybrids for about 20 years and made them reliable and very efficient.

The physics are the same for cars and MHs, aerodynamics excepted. I agree that motorway driving is the area where the hybrid system has almost no fuel efficiency advantage. The only fuel saving strategy for both types is to drive at 60 mph or less. If you have a headwind, the chances are that on the return journey it becomes a tailwind, so that evens out.

On single carriageway roads, the KERS will harvest kinetic energy and generate most of it into the HV battery to power the vehicle briefly with the ICE off. Every roundabout, traffic lights, lower speed limit, up and down hill section etc enables significant energy recovery compared with an ICE-only vehicle. The brakes will be used much less so that reduces maintenance costs too. There is no conventional gearbox or clutch either because at low speeds it is essentially an EV. Less to go wrong. It won't stall either.

Finally, there is the Atkinson Cycle engine for maximum fuel efficiency. You don't need a conventional ICE engine tuned for power. You might not need a Turbocharger either because the power boost is provided by the electric motor when needed. That's another incremental gain. Overall, during 2 1/2 years motoring, my hybrid car's fuel economy is 28.8% better than its non-hybrid predecessor despite it being heavier. That's why I questioned the assertion that it uses 3x the fuel economy claims by the manufacturer. That seems to apply only to plug-in hybrids driven inappropriately by numpties, not self-charging hybrids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

The Honda brochure claims that, under the Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure, the economy of my model is a combined 62.8 mpg. I consistently get 5 mpg better than that overall. If I were to use the optional ECON setting, which I don't because it turns off the aircon, and used a hypermiling driving strategy, I could emulate achievements by those on the owner's forum who claim 80 mpg or better. I can't be bothered to do that. I am content with the overall economy I get, and the lively performance with ECON mode off.

If Stellantis were to manufacture the Honda hybrid drivetrain under licence and put that into a self-charging hybrid Ducato, I would not hesistate to buy one. I would expect about 35 mpg average, compared against my current 29 mpg in the UK. It would probably also be much smoother and quieter than my X290. The HV battery would only need to be about 4KWh, therefore the base van would be significantly cheaper than a Ducato-e, perhaps over £20k less than the longer range one with the 79KWh battery. There is also not going to be a weight penalty. What's not to like?

 

[Guigsy]

OK, more details. Apologies for the long post below.

A 100 bhp ICE would be enough for a hypothetical self-charging hybrid MH because with a clever system (examples are to be found in hybrid Hondas and Toyotas) the electric motor assists the ICE, providing extra power for steep gradients and overtakes. With the Honda system the ICE is in direct drive to the wheels above @55 mph, in effect the same as a 6th gear ratio. It drops out again on downhill sections, effectively coasting, using no fuel. It is so seamless you cannot feel the transition between the 3 power modes. All selection is automatic to use the optimal power mode, very clever. These companies have been developing hybrids for about 20 years and made them reliable and very efficient.

The physics are the same for cars and MHs, aerodynamics excepted. I agree that motorway driving is the area where the hybrid system has almost no fuel efficiency advantage. The only fuel saving strategy for both types is to drive at 60 mph or less. If you have a headwind, the chances are that on the return journey it becomes a tailwind, so that evens out.

On single carriageway roads, the KERS will harvest kinetic energy and generate most of it into the HV battery to power the vehicle briefly with the ICE off. Every roundabout, traffic lights, lower speed limit, up and down hill section etc enables significant energy recovery compared with an ICE-only vehicle. The brakes will be used much less so that reduces maintenance costs too. There is no conventional gearbox or clutch either because at low speeds it is essentially an EV. Less to go wrong. It won't stall either.

Finally, there is the Atkinson Cycle engine for maximum fuel efficiency. You don't need a conventional ICE engine tuned for power. You might not need a Turbocharger either because the power boost is provided by the electric motor when needed. That's another incremental gain. Overall, during 2 1/2 years motoring, my hybrid car's fuel economy is 28.8% better than its non-hybrid predecessor despite it being heavier. That's why I questioned the assertion that it uses 3x the fuel economy claims by the manufacturer. That seems to apply only to plug-in hybrids driven inappropriately by numpties, not self-charging hybrids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle

The Honda brochure claims that, under the Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure, the economy of my model is a combined 62.8 mpg. I consistently get 5 mpg better than that overall. If I were to use the optional ECON setting, which I don't because it turns off the aircon, and used a hypermiling driving strategy, I could emulate achievements by those on the owner's forum who claim 80 mpg or better. I can't be bothered to do that. I am content with the overall economy I get, and the lively performance with ECON mode off.

If Stellantis were to manufacture the Honda hybrid drivetrain under licence and put that into a self-charging hybrid Ducato, I would not hesistate to buy one. I would expect about 35 mpg average, compared against my current 29 mpg in the UK. It would probably also be much smoother and quieter than my X290. The HV battery would only need to be about 4KWh, therefore the base van would be significantly cheaper than a Ducato-e, perhaps over £20k less than the longer range one with the 79KWh battery. There is also not going to be a weight penalty. What's not to like?

The difference is cars normally have loads of excess power. You car is probably only using 50bhp to cruise at motorway speeds, so the Atkinson engine doesn't have to produce much more than that, it can easily chug away and top off the battery or shut down for brief periods. But a motorhome needs close to its maximum horsepower to cruise. So the generator would need to be pretty big... pretty much the same output as a normal ICE. There'd be less to gain.

Hybrids also work well in stop-start conditions. But motorhomes tend to do sustained driving, less city work, so again, I don't think there's much benefit to be had over a direct drive diesel.

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[SpeedyDux]

The difference is cars normally have loads of excess power. You car is probably only using 50bhp to cruise at motorway speeds, so the Atkinson engine doesn't have to produce much more than that, it can easily chug away and top off the battery or shut down for brief periods. But a motorhome needs close to its maximum horsepower to cruise. So the generator would need to be pretty big... pretty much the same output as a normal ICE. There'd be less to gain.

Hybrids also work well in stop-start conditions. But motorhomes tend to do sustained driving, less city work, so again, I don't think there's much benefit to be had over a direct drive diesel.

Mine doesn't. I have the 150 hp version and at motorway cruising speeds on a light throttle there is plenty in reserve.

I'm guessing you could be driving yours at Warp Factor 7, throttle pedal pressed hard on the floor. Or, yours has a weedy engine.

 

[Coolcats]

Hydrogen ICE conversion would suite most I suspect

 

[SpeedyDux]

Hydrogen ICE conversion would suite most I suspect

The drawbacks of hydrogen I think include fuel losses when the MH isn't being driven. It suits commercial vehicles better.

 

[Jonno1103]

HVO 100 will also be on the forecourt by 2024, it's already appearing in Ireland. For those with Euro 6 Final engines it's a simple drop in replacement for diesel. It's zero emissions, doesn't use mined precious metals or create tonnes of CO2 during manufacture nor will it require specialised disposal.

 

[Jonno1103]

Mine doesn't. I have the 150 hp version and at motorway cruising speeds on a light throttle there is plenty in reserve.

I'm guessing you could be driving yours at Warp Factor 7, throttle pedal pressed hard on the floor. Or, yours has a weedy engine.

Yes, Our 130 Ecoblue Transit sit's comfortably on a motorway at 70 purring at around 2200RPM.

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[Guigsy]

Yes, Our 130 Ecoblue Transit sit's comfortably on a motorway at 70 purring at around 2200RPM.

If your foot-to-the-floor speed with your 130bhp on the autobahn on a still day is roughly 90mph, and aero drag is roughly speed squared, which means 70mph needs roughly 80bhp.

Now make it a coachbuild (which has about 25% more frontal area). Add a headwind. A series hybrid generator would need that amount of power, plus a bit more so it can charge the battery a little. It's not going to be a little Honda briefcase sized power unit.

 

[rosalan]

Winibago have aleady got a concept electric motorhome on a Ford transit base. They are looking at 12months before early production models. I could not find anyone looking at Hydrogen yet. does this mean hydrogen has been side tracked for the moment?

 

[Guigsy]

Winibago have aleady got a concept electric motorhome on a Ford transit base. They are looking at 12months before early production models. I could not find anyone looking at Hydrogen yet. does this mean hydrogen has been side tracked for the moment?

Hydrogen is still a good solution for heavier vehicles. But for cars, batteries are smaller and charge so quickly, there's less to be gained from fuel cells. The car market has gone for batteries. I think that means few filling station forecourts will bother fitting all the infrastructure required for hydrogen as there won't be enough customers to get their money back. Chicken 'n' egg situation, therefore nobody will want a hydrogen vehicle.

I think panel vans will get better battery setups. But they'll still only suit delivery vans that tend to run lighter loads at lower speeds with overnight charges. Vans that haul heavy stuff over distance will need diesel for a while yet. Which is where I'm guessing motorhomes will have to keep sourcing their base vehicles from. I can't see a good alternative.

 

[funflair]

Winibago have aleady got a concept electric motorhome on a Ford transit base. They are looking at 12months before early production models. I could not find anyone looking at Hydrogen yet. does this mean hydrogen has been side tracked for the moment?

125 miles range and then use the motive batteries to run the vans heating, hot water and cooking so if you are wild camping I wouldn't want to be more than 40 miles from home, OK it's a start and might work if you want to go to a campground with charging points on the pitch, I am not convinced many will go for it yet though.

 

[rosalan]

I am guessing they will start off with hybrids in some form, for both motorhomes and some goods vehicles. The Winibago article did not mention the concept of generators to run microwaves, hairdryers or topping up driving batteries.

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[Jonno1103]

If your foot-to-the-floor speed with your 130bhp on the autobahn on a still day is roughly 90mph, and aero drag is roughly speed squared, which means 70mph needs roughly 80bhp.

Now make it a coachbuild (which has about 25% more frontal area). Add a headwind. A series hybrid generator would need that amount of power, plus a bit more so it can charge the battery a little. It's not going to be a little Honda briefcase sized power unit.

Foot to the floor in a fully loaded 3500kg 130 Ecoblue is a bit more than 90! I have zero intension of going anywhere near a Hybrid.

 

[Arnside037]

There are two battery sizes – 47kWh and 79kWh, the first having three modules, the second five, including one behind the rear axle. They mount under the van, so whichever version you go for it won’t have any impact on the load space, which is exactly the same the diesel models.

Would that mean any underslung tanks on a PVC conversion would have to compete with the space used by these 3 or 5 batteries?

 

[gus-lopez]

Winibago have aleady got a concept electric motorhome on a Ford transit base.

I hope it is better than this L2H2

125 miles range and then use the motive batteries to run the vans heating, hot water and cooking so if you are wild camping I wouldn't want to be more than 40 miles from home,

Yes as above.

 

[georgio]

My Honda crv self charging hybrid with a 2 litre engine gets 43.4 miles per gallon .its quite a heavy car . I think for the foreseeable future pure electric vans are perfect for urban use but not interurban

 

[cyberyacht]

My old 2.0D Kuga (similar weight) did that without any jiggery pokery. Digressing still further from E vans, Giles Coren in Saturday's Times was giving the Jag iPace a real slagging and is returning to an ICE car.

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