Ducato - 5th gear popping out (1 Viewer)

[Alastair]

Hi Stuart -ts difficult to tell from the pics bit the teeth do look worn to me. I've just had a look at my old one, which I kept as a souvenir.... and its very similar to yours. If you compare the front and rear teeth on the ring into which the selector fits you'll see that one side is unworn, with the triangular shaped teeth keeping their original profile. Flip it over and the ones on the other side, which are doing the work, may be rounded and or chipped, as will the ones on the actual gear, which mate with them. When you took the drain plug out, had the magnet collected lots of little hairy bits of swarf, as in the pic on my earlier posting?
Alastair

 

[fred flintstone]

My camera is not the best Alastair.
The drain plug had a bit of an haircut but nothing drastic, I've seen worse when I used to work on heavy plant machines. Didn't find any major debris, I put a magnet in the drain hole and that didn't find any extra rubbish.
I will have a look again in the morning at the gears. At least you have told me what to look for.
Hope I can get it all back together again
One of the balls popped out after I had dismantled it but I found it ok, will be more careful in future.
I had to order a new gasket as well (£15.00) in Sweden), but the oil is very cheap here. It only comes in 2 litre bottles so I had to get 2 bottles. Cost £19.00 delivered for 4 litres.
If I replace the 5th gear I can only get a 35/58 gear, mine is a 33/56. It will fit ok but will make the motor 3% lower geared. That might be an improvement because 5th gear was a lot higher that 4th.
Keep commenting as any help and advice is much apprecited.

 

[Irishrover]

My camera is not the best Alastair.
The drain plug had a bit of an haircut but nothing drastic, I've seen worse when I used to work on heavy plant machines. Didn't find any major debris, I put a magnet in the drain hole and that didn't find any extra rubbish.
I will have a look again in the morning at the gears. At least you have told me what to look for.
Hope I can get it all back together again
One of the balls popped out after I had dismantled it but I found it ok, will be more careful in future.
I had to order a new gasket as well (£15.00) in Sweden), but the oil is very cheap here. It only comes in 2 litre bottles so I had to get 2 bottles. Cost £19.00 delivered for 4 litres.
If I replace the 5th gear I can only get a 35/58 gear, mine is a 33/56. It will fit ok but will make the motor 3% lower geared. That might be an improvement because 5th gear was a lot higher that 4th.
Keep commenting as any help and advice is much apprecited.

I lost 5th gear also, no drama or crunching, just popped out and that was that. My mates son is a Fiat Mechanic so got him to to the job. I bought a 5th gear kit from One Stop Gearbox. Anyway...when he pulled out the 5th gear synchro it looked perfect as did the 5th gear. On close examination though the synchro did have a slightly chamfered wear pattern to the side of the synchro, he reckoned it would work by reversing it but we had a new replacement to fit anyway. When all bolted back together, new oil etc, all working like a dream ( touch wood ). It's a shit 5th gear add-on design, my feeling is the tiniest bit of wear on the synchro will cause it to pop out of 5th.

This may not be your current gearbox problem but hope it helps you anyway....

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[TheBig1]

many people have successfully just turned round the synchro and reassembled where it was only minor wear without damaged teeth

 

[JockandRita]

Ours had two or three broken teeth, (as well as worn chamfered teeth all the way round), which fortunately, were attached to the casing, with the help of that big magnet I plonked on there a long while ago. It's on there again.

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[Lee27]

View attachment 116052 View attachment 116053

Hi Stuart

It looks to me like the dog teeth on you second photo are broken, in the 6 oclock position they look ok but when you get round towards 3 oclock it looks like the tops are broken off the teeth. if you place the gear and synchro together, then push the synchro across towards the gear, so that the dog teeth lock, can you then turn the gear/synchro independently of each other, or are they firmly locked together?

as an aside; synchros can be reversed when worn/damaged on one side, that's how they work, the synchro between 1st and 3rd for example, when in 1st one side is engaged, when in 3rd, the other side is used. as there is no 6th gear it can be reversed.

hope this helps

Lee

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[fred flintstone]

I lost 5th gear also, no drama or crunching, just popped out and that was that. My mates son is a Fiat Mechanic so got him to to the job. I bought a 5th gear kit from One Stop Gearbox. Anyway...when he pulled out the 5th gear synchro it looked perfect as did the 5th gear. On close examination though the synchro did have a slightly chamfered wear pattern to the side of the synchro, he reckoned it would work by reversing it but we had a new replacement to fit anyway. When all bolted back together, new oil etc, all working like a dream ( touch wood ). It's a shit 5th gear add-on design, my feeling is the tiniest bit of wear on the synchro will cause it to pop out of 5th.

This may not be your current gearbox problem but hope it helps you anyway....

I will go and have another look now the sun is shining. Thanks for your input.

many people have successfully just turned round the synchro and reassembled where it was only minor wear without damaged teeth

I think I will turn the synchro round because postage to Sweden is quite expensive. It will probably get me home and I can always replace it at a later date if it fails again.

Ours had two or three broken teeth, (as well as worn chamfered teeth all the way round), which fortunately, were attached to the casing, with the help of that big magnet I plonked on there a long while ago. It's on there again.

Cheers,

Jock.

Thanks for your input on my problem.

Hi Stuart

It looks to me like the dog teeth on you second photo are broken, in the 6 oclock position they look ok but when you get round towards 3 oclock it looks like the tops are broken off the teeth. if you place the gear and synchro together, then push the synchro across towards the gear, so that the dog teeth lock, can you then turn the gear/synchro independently of each other, or are they firmly locked together?

as an aside; synchros can be reversed when worn/damaged on one side, that's how they work, the synchro between 1st and 3rd for example, when in 1st one side is engaged, when in 3rd, the other side is used. as there is no 6th gear it can be reversed.

hope this helps

Lee

I will try the gears together this morning and follow your advice. I will update this thread later on tonight. Thanks to everyone for their help and advice.

 

[fred flintstone]

I have turned the synchro round because the teeth were all a bit chewed. Now I will try and find a picture to show how it all fits back together haha.

 

[fred flintstone]

All back together, just waiting for new gasket for cover and 75W/80 oil to arrive tomorrow. No bits left over which is always a good sign.
I have tried to remove the wires from the reverse switch but they seem a bit stuck. It is difficult when there is little or no access to it, even with air box and pipes removed. Do the wires just pull off or is it a strange connector?

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[Alastair]

Hello again - well done! I can't remember how the switch fits into the casing and the MH is parked up some miles away at the moment so I can't look right now. I think its a plug with a clip arrangement for the wiring - as you say its not the most accessible fitting.
Alastair

 

[fred flintstone]

Cheers Alastair

 

[fred flintstone]

I wish I was more decisive... Put it back together yesterday (not put cover on yet) then found a complete kit, inc synchro, and both fifth gears for £195 (Ebay) including 2 day delivery service to me in Sweden.
I have ordered them and await Friday with great anticipation.
I must love laying on my back under this old bus...........
I will feel much safer with new bits as we are planning a trip to Greece in August, 4300km each way.
Next update Friday

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[Alastair]

Hi Stuart - I think you're wise to go for the new set, especially at that price. I'd worry about simply reversing the synchro ring because you'd still be left with worn teeth on the gear itself. I'm jealous of your Greek trip!
Alastair

 

[JockandRita]

Hi Stuart - I think you're wise to go for the new set, especially at that price.

Me too. BTW, I paid the best part of £700 through Fiat for the same kit, so providing it''s to the same OE spec, you've done well there Stuart.

Good luck with it all.

Jock.

 

[fred flintstone]

Hi Stuart - I think you're wise to go for the new set, especially at that price. I'd worry about simply reversing the synchro ring because you'd still be left with worn teeth on the gear itself. I'm jealous of your Greek trip!
Alastair

Greece looks like paradise to me. Travel from Sweden through Germany, Poland and all the way south.
We had a few months in Algarve a few years ago but I want to see everything while I can...

Only problem I forsee is that I have to change both gears so I will have to go and borrow a socket for the nut, I will measure it tomorrow.
The amazing thing about Sweden is that when I go to the local garage and borrow tools, such as the 8mm square for the drain plug, they just give it to me and trust me to bring it back. No deposit required... It's like the UK when I was a kid, nice...
I will keep all the old parts so if I get any problems I can put the reversed synchro back in, hopefully I won't need them.

Me too. BTW, I paid the best part of £700 through Fiat for the same kit, so providing it''s to the same OE spec, you've done well there Stuart.

Good luck with it all.

Jock.

It says brand new OE and they seem a reputable company. Just called them to make sure the parts would fit ok. Fingers crossed.
Next post will hopefully be good news about the gearbox.

Thanks to both of you for contributing and keeping me sane

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[Alastair]

Its a pleasure to help! Jock and Rita were very helpful to me when I had my problem as well - having the support and encouragement from a site like this does indeed keep you sane. Mind you I do wonder whether owning a motorhome is sane...
My daughter and I went to Greece two years ago (by plane) and I can't wait to go back - maybe next year...
Looking forward to the good news!
Alastair

 

[fred flintstone]

Hi all
I got the switch out after much cursing I am limited with the tools I have with me, and how flexible my arms and wrists are.
I have another problem in that I have to change both gears because I can only get 35/58 gears, mine were 33/56. That means removing the 5th gear retaining nut. I loaned a 36mm socket from my new best friend in Sweden but it looks blo*dy tight. I cannot find anyone that has changed both gears.
Hope the sun shines on me tomorrow..
How long does it take to fill this box through such a small hole?

 

[Alastair]

It took me about 3/4 of an hour using a funnel and a long length of tube! You can get containers which you pressurise with an attached hand pump which would make life easier, or if you can attach the hose to the plastic bottle the oil comes in and squeeze it, that should speed it up!
I hope the nut doesn't cause too many problems
Alastair

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[fred flintstone]

Latest update..
I wasn't as lucky as most because I had to change both gears. The big gear with the synchro is easy to change but if anyone has to change the small gear behind the 36mm nut I would advise that they get the correct puller to pull it off (or get a garage to do it). Peugeot have a puller but they don't seem to like loaning it.
This gear is the tightest fit I have ever seen. Like I said I had to change mine because the new gears were different ratios, couldn't get a 33/56 cog, apparently they do not make it any more.
I eventually got the small cog off after 4 hours grunting and swearing. As soon as I started to lever behind it with a screwdriver one of the teeth popped off so I was past the point of no return . I used a chisel under one side and a small claw hammer under the other. WHAT A STRUGGLE.
I would also mention that when fitting the new parts that all the anti rust coating is removed and a good coating of oil.
If you leave the coating on it is a bi*ch to get them back onto the pinions.
Anyway, it is back together again. Just waiting for the oil on Monday and fingers crossed.


Parts were from one-stop-gearbox-shop via Ebay and cost £180.00 plus £15.00 postage to Sweden. In UK they can be picked up from Argos for FREE.. Only took 48 hours to arrive here.

Listing said:
**********************************************
Brand New Genuine OE 5th gear Kit for Fiat Ducato 2.5 and 2.8 Diesel M5GT Gearbox years 1994 to 2002
This Kit includes:
5th Gear Pair 35 Teeth And 58 Teeth
5th Gear COMPLETE Hub INCLUDING Synchro

All the parts in the kit have been produced by an OEM manufacturer, ensuring that the quality and performance are of the highest standard for your transmission repair.

Order number: F374

If you are unsure of compatibility with your vehicle, please contact us with the vehicle Registration number and/or Chassis number and we will check for you immediately.
Please don't hesitate to contact us by phone or via email if you have any questions regarding this product.
Phone+44) 01494 956549 / 07783 454161
**********************************************

 

[fred flintstone]

Just filled it with 2.7 litres 77W/80 oil and refitted air filter. Went for a drive and for first 15 minutes only went up to 4th gear. After that I plucked up the courage to use 5th gear and it seems ok.
I will be worried for the next 500 miles about the nuts that I tightened inside the box.
All we can do is keep the fingers crossed, or as the Swedish say Hold the thumb..

 

[Irishrover]

Just filled it with 2.7 litres 77W/80 oil and refitted air filter. Went for a drive and for first 15 minutes only went up to 4th gear. After that I plucked up the courage to use 5th gear and it seems ok.
I will be worried for the next 500 miles about the nuts that I tightened inside the box.
All we can do is keep the fingers crossed, or as the Swedish say Hold the thumb..

Great to hear you are up and running!..........I wouldn't worry at all, I'm sure it'll hold together

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[fred flintstone]

Great to hear you are up and running!..........I wouldn't worry at all, I'm sure it'll hold together

Hope so mate, thanks for the thumbs up..

 

[JockandRita]

Just filled it with 2.7 litres 77W/80 oil and refitted air filter. Went for a drive and for first 15 minutes only went up to 4th gear. After that I plucked up the courage to use 5th gear and it seems ok.
I will be worried for the next 500 miles about the nuts that I tightened inside the box.
All we can do is keep the fingers crossed, or as the Swedish say Hold the thumb..

Nice one Stuart.

Glad to see that you are up and running. Have you had a chance to notice the difference with the change in ratios, compared to the original gear set?

Cheers,

Jock.

 

[fred flintstone]

Nice one Stuart.

Glad to see that you are up and running. Have you had a chance to notice the difference with the change in ratios, compared to the original gear set?

Cheers,

Jock.

I haven't noticed a difference yet but I will be taking it on the motorway tomorrow to test it. I will post the results.
Thanks for commenting.

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[fred flintstone]

Just been down the E4 and I cannot notice any difference in the gearing. The expert said it was 3% lower. I still have to reach 50 MPH before it will pull 5th. 55 to 60 feels better.

 

[fred flintstone]

Well my bubble has been burst today.
Drove 10 miles on motorway and waited for oil to get warm. 60 MPH I went for fifth and it jumped out. 70 MPH it did the same. I am just a bit upset. It will not stay in 5th at all.
I have been advised it may be the selector that is worn but I do not know what an unworn selector looks like.
Problem is that in this country there are no gearbox garages. I would happily pay £1000 for it to be swapped but I have to drive all the way to the UK to part with my cash.

 

[JockandRita]

Well my bubble has been burst today.
Drove 10 miles on motorway and waited for oil to get warm. 60 MPH I went for fifth and it jumped out. 70 MPH it did the same. I am just a bit upset. It will not stay in 5th at all.
I have been advised it may be the selector that is worn but I do not know what an unworn selector looks like.
Problem is that in this country there are no gearbox garages. I would happily pay £1000 for it to be swapped but I have to drive all the way to the UK to part with my cash.

Sorry to read of your bad luck stooo (have you changed your username Stuart?) especially as you went for the complete kit.

I really can't offer advice or help, as I haven't a clue as to what to look for now.

The very best of luck with it, and here's hoping that it is something simple.

Cheers,

Jock.

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[fred flintstone]

Yeah Jock I changed my username..
Thanks for concern I will post tomorrow after I look inside again

 

[Irishrover]

Thats bad luck stoo......Hope you can get it sorted out soon.

 

[Puddleduck]

This thread might be of use to you @pigginchilli

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