Dover Seafront parking. (1 Viewer)

Allanm

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I am on the mailing list, and a member of Camping Car Park, a French company that is opening more and more commercial aires all over France. They are good value, well maintained and in sought after places.
It would be great if they started looking at building aires in the UK and give a kick up the backside to all the ditherers who say they aren't commercially viable.
Someone must be making a fair bit of cash or there wouldn't be so many of them

Who are "they" and where do they get the land and the money from?

If that is the case then why aren't private businesses falling over themselves to open aires?

They, are the company I referred to in my post, I have underlined the section for clarity.
BROKEN LINK

I guess they just have a bit of je ne sais quoi, unlike the UK who hide behind antiquated rules and regulations so they can sit back and do nothing.
 

Allanm

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Well I've always wanted to look at the Castle and the wartime tunnels, but there's never time when using ferries...
The castle and tunnels are worth spending a whole day doing. When they have special events on, they provide adequate parking in a field nearby and it is possible to park reasonable sized motorhomes in the castle car park
You just need to get there a day earlier than your ferry and overnight in one of many nearby campsites or the Canterbury Park and Ride aire
 

GJH

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They, are the company I referred to in my post, I have underlined the section for clarity.
BROKEN LINK

I guess they just have a bit of je ne sais quoi, unlike the UK who hide behind antiquated rules and regulations so they can sit back and do nothing.
Which comes back to the second part of my post - If that is the case then why aren't private businesses falling over themselves to open aires?
As Nick pointed out in his post, there are significant differences between the UK and France. Fantasies about all it needing is "a bit of je ne sais quoi" will not change that.

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Which comes back to the second part of my post - If that is the case then why aren't private businesses falling over themselves to open aires?
As Nick pointed out in his post, there are significant differences between the UK and France. Fantasies about all it needing is "a bit of je ne sais quoi" will not change that.

The biggest reason is the cost/value of the land. I can only find info for farmland so that will have to do for this example.

Arable land in France costs an average of €5,910 (£5051 at todays exchange rates) per hectare. In England and Wales the average cost is £22,020.

In the absence of anything to the contrary lets assume that difference is the same across all types of land and say that land in England and Wales is just over 4 times more expensive, or valuable depending on your point of view, than it is in France.

That, to me, is a pretty telling reason why commercial aires are a non starter in this country. @Allanm look at the example in my previous post. Would you invest on those terms? I know I wouldn't.

As far as I know the only places operating in this country at present are where LAs have been able to set aside areas of existing car parks i.e. Canterbury, Chester & Portrush. That's obviously not going to be a viable option for all authorities and there's no reason why any of the ones that could do it would do it unless someone proves the commercial benefits to them. Any planning officer worth his salary will do some basic research on the issue and come back with the example of Guisborough. Anyone presenting to them would need to have an answer ready for that.
 
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GJH

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The biggest reason is the cost/value of the land. I can only find info for farmland so that will have to do for this example.

Arable land in France costs an average of €5,910 (£5051 at todays exchange rates) per hectare. In England and Wales the average cost is £22,020.

In the absence of anything to the contrary lets assume that difference is the same across all types of land and say that land in England and Wales is just over 4 times more expensive, or valuable depending on your point of view, than it is in France.

That, to me, is a pretty telling reason why commercial aires are a non starter in this country. @Allanm look at the example in my previous post. Would you invest on those terms? I know I wouldn't.

As far as I know the only places operating in this country at present are where LAs have been able to set aside areas of existing car parks i.e. Canterbury, Chester & Portrush. That's obviously not going to be a viable option for all authorities and there's no reason why any of the ones that could do it would do it unless someone proves the commercial benefits to them. Any planning officer worth his salary will do some basic research on the issue and come back with the example of Guisborough. Anyone presenting to them would need to have an answer ready for that.
There are a few more places where overnighting in existing car parks is allowed but (like Chester) they have no water/waste facilities. However, they tend to be where demand for existing car parks has changed (Blackpool is perhaps the best example) and that factor simply does not appertain in most places.
We have a couple of private car parks in Middlesbrough where buildings were demolished (quickly before the council could slap listed status on them) but the land has not been developed beyond the basic necessary because the company can then make a bit of cash whilst waiting for a more valuable development opportunity. The location is fine for daytime commuter parking but (because of the night time economy) the location is totally unsuitable for aires.
 
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We have a couple of private car parks in Middlesbrough where buildings were demolished (quickly before the council could slap listed status on them) but the land has not been developed beyond the basic necessary because the company can then make a bit of cash whilst waiting for a more valuable development opportunity. The location is fine for daytime commuter parking but (because of the night time economy) the location is totally unsuitable for aires.

I take it the planning requirements are different (easier to obtain?) for a car park than they would be for an aire?

Also I'd imagine that as soon as the right development opportunity emerges the land will be far too valuable to waste on parking regardless of what type of parking.

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GJH

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I take it the planning requirements are different (easier to obtain?) for a car park than they would be for an aire?
The whole process is easier for a car park. In the first place an aire would need a caravan site licence or CL exemption and a that would probably require water and waste facilities being provided at a significant capital cost. There might also be costs associated with making the land viable for large vehicle use.
Also I'd imagine that as soon as the right development opportunity emerges the land will be far too valuable to waste on parking regardless of what type of parking.
Yes, both plots are just outside the town centre but within an area where there are a number of pubs, restaurants and offices.
 
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In the first place an aire would need a caravan site licence or CL exemption and a that would probably require water and waste facilities being provided at a significant capital cost.

I reread the last thread on this topic earlier

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/cl-s-versus-aires.131651/page-6#post-1887062

Your post
The law would only require a change if an "aire" were to be defined (in the UK) as somehow different from a caravan site.
is possibly one of the most important things in this entire debate.

I think that, even if all the other obstacles could be overcome, such a change would be needed for a continental style aire network to be viable here. Creating another CL/CS type network would not be a solution.

I imagine that achieving such a change would prove to be the biggest stumbling block of all.

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GWAYGWAY

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Just one thing I need to say about the Seafront. The York street roundabout is closed and all traffic must go west to the last roundabout by the BP station, and go around it and back the other way through the roadworks. The access from the clocktowe is SOMETIMES closed off and require going back to Wellesley Road to get on to the York street then off to the BP end. I am not sure how long this goes on but it will not be done quickly. At peak time this can take a long time to get through the works. Local traffic is really snarled up as the one way system goes down to the York street then up York Street dual carriageway, now it all goes through the market square.

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Allanm

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I agree land prices are expensive in many places in the UK, but how do those prices compare to Germany, Switzerland and all the other countries that provide aires. I would imagine land in Sweden is expensive but they still manage to provide aires.
The majority of land in France is reasonably cheap, but there are aires in places like Chamonix where, I should imagine flat plots of land are not the cheapest
We are currently on an aire in Honfleur. There are at least 100 places and it's full. In fact there are probably more than 100 vehicles here paying €11 a night
This is a very popular aire, probably a couple of acres in size. If there is just 75% occupancy throughout the year, and I suspect that is a low estimate, the town is making over €300,000 a year.
Not a bad return for little expense.
It seems to me, people are very negative in the UK about providing aires. Sure, land can be expensive, but there must be land that is available for this sort of development. After all, no permanent structures would be built on it and it could be returned to its original state quite easily.
Then there is planning and other regulations concerning land used for camping. Surely normal regulations don't apply, it won't be a campsite, just an overnight stop. Or maybe change these regulations or create new appropriate ones.
Must aires in France are funded by local and district councils, EU funding and money from local businesses, commercial aires would be funded by private companies who may or may not qualify for some sort of grant.
If a private business can afford to invest £500,000 in a Truck Stop near Dover
( http://www.dovertruckstop.co.uk/ ) and make a healthy profit, I can't see why a commercial aire wouldn't be viable.
 
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I agree land prices are expensive in many places in the UK, but how do those prices compare to Germany, Switzerland and all the other countries that provide aires. I would imagine land in Sweden is expensive but they still manage to provide aires.
The majority of land in France is reasonably cheap, but there are aires in places like Chamonix where, I should imagine flat plots of land are not the cheapest
We are currently on an aire in Honfleur. There are at least 100 places and it's full. In fact there are probably more than 100 vehicles here paying €11 a night
This is a very popular aire, probably a couple of acres in size. If there is just 75% occupancy throughout the year, and I suspect that is a low estimate, the town is making over €300,000 a year.
Not a bad return for little expense.
It seems to me, people are very negative in the UK about providing aires. Sure, land can be expensive, but there must be land that is available for this sort of development. After all, no permanent structures would be built on it and it could be returned to its original state quite easily.
Then there is planning and other regulations concerning land used for camping. Surely normal regulations don't apply, it won't be a campsite, just an overnight stop. Or maybe change these regulations or create new appropriate ones.
Must aires in France are funded by local and district councils, EU funding and money from local businesses, commercial aires would be funded by private companies who may or may not qualify for some sort of grant.
If a private business can afford to invest £500,000 in a Truck Stop near Dover
( http://www.dovertruckstop.co.uk/ ) and make a healthy profit, I can't see why a commercial aire wouldn't be viable.

Chamonix is a major tourist destination. The aire there is part of the main car park. I know there are water and waste facilities and I'm not knocking it, we use it regularly. I can't think of anywhere in the UK that could sensibly be a comparison.

Honfleur actually has a capacity of 240 vans but can and does take more. Apart from the tourist attraction it has the USP of being half an hour from a major channel crossing. Again I can't think of anywhere in the UK that would be an obvious compassion. You say a good return for little expense. How much do you think that land is worth? If someone had to buy it and operate the site commercially, without the USP, how much do you think they would need to charge per night?

Yes, normal regulations do apply. @GJH knows more about this than the rest of us bust basically as far as UK law is concerned an aire is the same as a club campsite.

As far as local council funding is concerned are you prepared to approach each one individually with location specific data proving the economic benefits for them? Or do you think they should spend their council tax payers money based on vague speculation on how motorhomers might spend money?

I didn't think so. It's far easier to moan in speculative terms without actually doing anything isn't it?
 

GJH

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It seems to me, people are very negative in the UK about providing aires.
Not negative, lazy. There are very few people who have (or are willing to) actually put in real effort. Always easier to expect somebody else to do it for them.
Sure, land can be expensive, but there must be land that is available for this sort of development. After all, no permanent structures would be built on it and it could be returned to its original state quite easily.
Where is this land that "there must be" and "is available"?
Then there is planning and other regulations concerning land used for camping. Surely normal regulations don't apply, it won't be a campsite, just an overnight stop.
Of course normal regulations apply. In UK law there is no such thing as "an overnight stop". If a caravan (including a motor caravan) is used for habitation then, in law, the land used is subject to the provisions of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.
Or maybe change these regulations or create new appropriate ones.
There is no incentive for government to make such changes (even if they could find parliamentary time). Such incentive would only arise if enough people put effort in (see above).
Must aires in France are funded by local and district councils, EU funding and money from local businesses, commercial aires would be funded by private companies who may or may not qualify for some sort of grant.
There is no general incentive for local or national government to make funding available, nor is there any commercial incentive (if there were companies would already be doing it). Such incentive would only arise if enough people put effort in (see above).
If a private business can afford to invest £500,000 in a Truck Stop near Dover( http://www.dovertruckstop.co.uk/ ) and make a healthy profit, I can't see why a commercial aire wouldn't be viable.
Probably because there are far more trucks using Dover than there are motor caravans and the legislation governing truck stops is different. However, if you can't see why a commercial aire wouldn't be viable why not approach Priority Freight Ltd and ask them why they haven't done so? Their e-mail address and phone number are on their home page. I'll be interested to see what they say.
As far as local council funding is concerned are you prepared to approach each one individually with location specific data proving the economic benefits for them? Or do you think they should spend their council tax payers money based on vague speculation on how motorhomers might spend money?

I didn't think so. It's far easier to moan in speculative terms without actually doing anything isn't it?
See first point above.

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"Of course normal regulations apply. In UK law there is no such thing as "an overnight stop". If a caravan (including a motor caravan) is used for habitation then, in law, the land used is subject to the provisions of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960."

I struggle to understand how this 'Law' can be enforced when HGV drivers seemingly unchallenged stop on a lay-by to sleep. Of course they (HGV drivers) have limitations in law on their driving hours when we only have common sense to rule when we need a rest! HGV drivers couldn't move as they could be breaking the law whilst we may be just stupid to do so. Typically British, the law is an ass.

Here are a few more approved overnight parking places in Britain, even down to the parking meters having a specific button for motor home overnight parking! That's thanks to Torridge District Council, and if they can do it so can many more if they have the will of course.

Bideford - £5 / Night - 51.02357, -4.20269
Appeldore - £5 / Night - 51.05538, -4.19205
Westward Ho - £5 / Night - 51.04091, -4.23714
Torrington - £5 / Night - 50.95075, -4.144321
Holsworthy - £5 / Night - 50.81058, -4.35332

Also in Cornwall...

King Auther's at Tintagel - £3 / Night - 50.66397, -4.75111

The Powys council website indicates a number of car parks designated for overnight parking in the north of the county, namely Welaspool, Newtown, Llanidloes and Machynlleth.

Rod
 

GJH

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I struggle to understand how this 'Law' can be enforced when HGV drivers seemingly unchallenged stop on a lay-by to sleep. Of course they (HGV drivers) have limitations in law on their driving hours when we only have common sense to rule when we need a rest! HGV drivers couldn't move as they could be breaking the law whilst we may be just stupid to do so. Typically British, the law is an ass.
As mentioned in the previous post, the law governing truck stops differs from that governing caravan sites and takes account of restrictions on HGV drivers. Those pieces of legislation are concerned with off-street parking though. Lay-byes are part of the highway and there is no national legislation preventing sleeping in them. See here.
Here are a few more approved overnight parking places in Britain, even down to the parking meters having a specific button for motor home overnight parking! That's thanks to Torridge District Council, and if they can do it so can many more if they have the will of course.

Bideford - £5 / Night - 51.02357, -4.20269
Appeldore - £5 / Night - 51.05538, -4.19205
Westward Ho - £5 / Night - 51.04091, -4.23714
Torrington - £5 / Night - 50.95075, -4.144321
Holsworthy - £5 / Night - 50.81058, -4.35332

Also in Cornwall...

King Auther's at Tintagel - £3 / Night - 50.66397, -4.75111

The Powys council website indicates a number of car parks designated for overnight parking in the north of the county, namely Welaspool, Newtown, Llanidloes and Machynlleth.
Torridge and Powys are two of the few places I mentioned in post #35.

King Arthur's at Tintagel is privately owned and has a site licence, as do the other two Tintagel car parks which allow overnighting (Sword in the Stone and Mayfair). They are a rare example of a place where obtaining a site licence is economically viable.

The factors which apply to Torridge, Powys (and the few other councils with similar facilities) and which make the Tintagel licensing economically viable are not widespread, however.
 

Allanm

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A few posts ago I referred to outdated legislation
"Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960."
This is one law which appears to govern how land is used now, over 60 years later, and needs to be pulled kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
I understand all the points in arguments that have been put forward earlier in this thread but still can't help feeling it boils down to the good old British " we've always done it like this, why would we want to change it" attitude.
As to badgering my local council, I used to work at my local council and bought the subject of aires up a few times at planning and other meetings. The council opened two aires afterwards, but I am sure this was their plan all along and nothing to do with what I actually said!

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haganap

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Of all the places to stop in the UK it beats me why anybody would chose Dover

Not used it yet but the Canterbury parking option sounds ideal, although you have to pay which might be the key maybe

I am making an assumption that most if not all are on their way to a ferry, surely a better option is to get on board and stay somewhere over in France :)

or am I missing something about Dover, some hidden secret attraction?

Actually Dover is a lovely town and well worth a visit David.
The castle is awesome the Spitfire memorial is really worth a visit.
We stop on marine parade and walk the dogs on the beach and let them have a swim. After a 5 plus hour drive to get there the last thing we want is another 2 hour drive in France after an hour and a half ferry.
I think any parking in the town will be a good idea. Make it safe secure and they will come
 

GJH

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This is one law which appears to govern how land is used now, over 60 years later, and needs to be pulled kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
Why? What needs to be changed?
There is nothing in the 1960 Act which precludes the setting up of aires. All private developers need to do is obtain a caravan site licence and planning consent (the latter would still be required even if the law were to be changed). Councils which are licensing authorities only need the planning consent because they have a licence exemption.
still can't help feeling it boils down to the good old British " we've always done it like this, why would we want to change it" attitude.
The 1960 Act was a response to the problems caused by "always done it like this".
 
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On a brief scan of it the 1960 Act would appear to still be generally fit for purpose.

The one thing that might be useful, if there were actually any private developers with the slightest interest and depending on the detail buried in it that I haven't read, would be a change to separately define "caravan sites" and "aires."

As Graham says Local Authorities already have all the power they need as demonstrated by Canterbury, Chester, Portrush et all.

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