Domestic - Heat Source Air Pump (1 Viewer)

canopus

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Just considering our options re the heating/hot water system in the bungalow we moved to in October. The boiler, hot water cylinder are relatively new, but the rads and pipework are probably original from when the place was built.

The bungalow is built on a concrete raft/slab and the pipework is embedded in the floor. Not sure to what extent whether the pipes are in sand with soft fill as there is laminate floor everywhere.

Do we install a new System boiler (pressurised) and route new pipes down the walls from the loft, dig out the old pipe from the floor and replace to be on the safe side or what?

We are also considering a Air Source heat Pump and just wondered if anybody had one?
 
May 31, 2015
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I have a Mitsubishi air heat source system...
House been built for five years.
With these systems the property has to be very well insulated as the radiators don't get as hot as a gas fired system, when it's running to give heat it heats my house very well and stays warm for a long time after due to the insulation, I find it cheep to run when it's running....

However, I have an electricity monitor and when the heating is not running I noticed it was still drawing power as the power unit outside the house is always on standby ( a bit like a fridge ) so in the summer I turn it off at the mains. For hot water I put the emersion on.

Other then that I find it ok but some others in my road don't like it..
Anything else just ask..(y)
 
Jan 28, 2008
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If you go down the air source route be sure to find an installer who is experienced in them evidently the are quite difficult to specify properly

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Mar 23, 2012
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Just considering our options re the heating/hot water system in the bungalow we moved to in October. The boiler, hot water cylinder are relatively new, but the rads and pipework are probably original from when the place was built.

The bungalow is built on a concrete raft/slab and the pipework is embedded in the floor. Not sure to what extent whether the pipes are in sand with soft fill as there is laminate floor everywhere.

Do we install a new System boiler (pressurised) and route new pipes down the walls from the loft, dig out the old pipe from the floor and replace to be on the safe side or what?

We are also considering a Air Source heat Pump and just wondered if anybody had one?
Is there a problem at present could do a powerflush on the pipes and fit new rads as a cheaper option
 

Violet1

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Be careful considered air source heat pump when doing new build not as efficient as made out , ground source better. Works best with wet underfloor heating as rads need to be hotter . Try Cookes in Norwich for quotes etc. Eventually went with solar. Hope it helps
 

dabhand

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If the pipe work is ok just put new rads up. This will probably last longer than you and work better than existing and be a much easier install than a ground source heat pump which, as stated runs (normally) at much lower temperatures. We have underfloor heating, I love it and would never have radiators if doing a new build, often not worth doing on a refurb unless your prepared for a lot of mess and/or you are putting new floors in.
However, if the floors are ropey and you are going to dig them out anyway, underfloor heating is unbeatable in my opinion, you will need to watch the threshold levels in the house though as to do the job properly you need at least 50mm of insulation, including behind skirtings, and 100mm of screed to bury the pipes in.

If the place is warm I'm not sure I'd be ripping stuff out if I didn't have to.

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Jun 29, 2015
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Take the radiators out and put in air to air heat pumps. This is just air-conditioning which works backwards. Air source wet systems don't get hot enough for rads
 

jonandshell

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We are looking at heat pumps for a project we have started.
As mentioned previously, your existing high temperature radiators need to be swapped out for larger low temperature ones.
Trying to run a heat pump at too high an output temperature severely affects efficiency.
Good insulation is also a must.
We are doing a conversion on a building and one of the requirements is insulating to bring all the U values (insulation efficiency) of windows, walls, floors and roof down to that of the spec of new builds.
Heating will be underfloor and because we will have a bit of land, a ground source heat pump will be utilised due to their better coefficient of performance.
Don't forget, there is the Governments Renewable Heat Incentive too. This will pay you over 7 years for the heat your new system produces. However, your installation needs to be installed by a registered installer and the house must comply with certain insulation standards too.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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In the OP you don't tell us of the current fuel powering the heating. If you have mains gas stay with it. Heat pumps are a alternative if mains gas unavailable. The issues have all been mentioned, insulation is the key. An air to water system is ok but as stated the water temperatures are not as high as gas and look out for the KW heat output, nowhere near a decent gas boiler system. You also need to consider the size (total amps) of the electricity supply and the cost of a possible upgrade.

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Jun 10, 2010
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We have had an airsource heatpump in one of our holiday cottages for 4 years.

Its terrible!!!

Its all known brand stuff, but IMO there are too many controls, and they fail as well as components in the heatpump regularly fail and then its difficult to find someone to fix it; do you need a plumber and electrician or an air conditioning engineer. Its just gone wrong again, crippled by a minor component failure just when you need it most.

I ve been threatening to replace it for 4 years and as soon as we get back we are going to rip it out and stick a worcester combi in.

Jon

btw, dont bank on the grants.
 

laird of Dunstan

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A buddy of mine has recently done a barn conversion with solar,air source heat pumps and a heat store. It took me the best part of a day to figure out how to make it all work at its maximum efficiency , i considered installing a cheap bms system which would have been fine for me but to complicated for your average Joe .
I would go with the underfloor heating system and find out if you have off peak electricity ,this can be a fraction of the cost that you run during day time,and use that to drive a heat store ( emersion heater tank type cylinder), that way you can have enough reserve heat to take part of the load during the day and then have it run along side the air source heat pump or ground source if you have the land .
Ive got my mates house set up so that he uses his washing machines at 2 am etc and that the water is heated from the low price tarrif , but all of this is down to Insulating your property correctly (y)
 

Ambilkate

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Our bungelow is built on a slab to Ken . We have a Worcester combi LPG . We found this quite sufficient . All pipes and radiators Bill replaced . The pipes Bill put under concrete floor protected in plastic sleeves . If you keep old pipework Bill recommends that you use a pressurised flush system before reconnection .
Kate x

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canopus

canopus

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In the OP you don't tell us of the current fuel powering the heating. If you have mains gas stay with it. Heat pumps are a alternative if mains gas unavailable. The issues have all been mentioned, insulation is the key. An air to water system is ok but as stated the water temperatures are not as high as gas and look out for the KW heat output, nowhere near a decent gas boiler system. You also need to consider the size (total amps) of the electricity supply and the cost of a possible upgrade.

Currently on oil - no town gas available only LPG bulk.

Not a fan of combi boilers, if they go wrong you've no hot water or heating. Always like to have an alternative if possible i.e immersion heater. Ideally would like a System boiler if we are going down that route but question is will the old pipes below the floor screed cope with 1.5 bar. Quandary then being if we dig the floor up for pipe replacement do we dig it all up and put an underfloor wet system instead, hence the original question on Air Source Heat Pumps.
 
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Jan 28, 2008
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the condition of your existing pipework will depend on how it was fitted originally how old it is and have you ever had problems with it
generally speaking copper pipework will last indefinitley on the right system and corectly fitted
ive had jobs less than two years old popping and in a right state but badly fitted
my brothers house has been done over thirty five years, pipes on ground floor are all buried in screed and sytem is open vented with no problems the rads are at least ten years older as they were ones i had taken out of an office refurb job
 
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canopus

canopus

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We have no idea how it was fitted originally, save to say that the house is a one off, and was built in the early 70's probably to the original owners spec. Assuming, the pipework was installed correctly, i.e. wrapped with the old style lagging, before screeding, and given that copper pipe was better quality 40 odd years ago, we are optimistic about leaving it in situ. We are erring towards probably just changing the rads and installing a new gravity boiler (which is external btw) and forgetting about the underfloor heating and Air Source Heat Pump option. This option would cause too much upheaval, cost a lot more, for little gain with a possible system that could be prone to problems.

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Aug 6, 2013
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I updated mine with a modern boiler & new rads. The pipework (under a suspended wooden floor) is original and was installed in the late '50s. It took me a while to flush but it has been running now for 10 years with no issues. The boiler is NG by the way.
 

Ambilkate

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ours has been running 9 yrs no issues Bill flushed once in the nine yrs no probs only use 2 x 47 's gas bottles a year with two ready to go on when needed
 
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canopus

canopus

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If you get 10 years out of a boiler these days you've done well I was told by a plumber.

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dabhand

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If you get 10 years out of a boiler these days you've done well I was told by a plumber.
Not if you buy the right boiler, cast iron heat exchanger etc. depends on system and btw referring to your earlier point about dropping pipes through attic, I repiped a whole heating system in 4 hours in plastic by doing this so you don't need to touch the floor anyway just use copper around the boiler!
 
Aug 6, 2013
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Don't think you'll find a cast iron heat exchanger on any modern boiler. Mine is stainless steel & very low water content as are all condensing boilers I've seen. (Which actually isn't that many:)).
 

DBK

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For heat pumps, as already mentioned you really need to fit underfloor heating. This is because they can't efficiently raise the water temperature high enough to use in conventional radiators. They can but are then no cheaper to run than conventional systems. Air sourced ones are also noisy outside so not really suitable if you have near neighbours. The hot water for showering etc is normally boosted by an electric heater up to the required temperature.

From the sound of it without extensive modification your bungalow may not be suitable.
 
Mar 23, 2012
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Your original post said the boiler was new as oil is now cheaper than gas to run just swap the rads the pipes may have been flushed when the boiler was done

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canopus

canopus

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Looking at the state of some of the work the previous owner has carried out (probably including installing the external boiler himself with no earth, and leaving live cable ends in situ), I doubt he had the gumption to flush the pipework. That said, thats probably the option we will take.
 
Sep 10, 2013
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Change the rads and before decommissioning the system add system cleaner, then have a heating engineer flush the system with a power flush and when complete make sure the system is fully protected with a good inhibitor at the correct dilution.
Also take the time to change all the radiator valves with Thermostatc units on the rads and new powered valves wherever fitted. Maybe also review the controls and if at all dodgy change with new.
The system should then be good for years.
 
Aug 6, 2013
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Veismann?
From Veismann website:

"Inox-Radial Heat Exchanger
At the heart of all of our wall-mounted Vitodens condensing boilers is a corrosion-resistant, high alloy stainless steel heat exchanger designed by us, called the Inox-Radial Heat exchanger.

Key to outstanding efficiency, the Inox-Radial Heat Exchanger ensures our boilers provide proven reliability and a long service life.

Made for high-grade stainless steel, Inox-Radial Heat Exchangers are durable, self-cleaning and are guaranteed for 10 years against corrosion."

TBH it's hard to imagine a condensing boiler could use cast iron anywhere. The clue is in the name in that the condensate would eat anything other than SS in a very short time.

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Anthony496

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My company supplies and installs Daikin and mitsubishi electric equipment, Air source heat pumps including Vrf and air to water systems. When the time came to replace my heating I costed up both options.

Even buying the equipment at trade price and having my engineers install it the figures still didn't weigh up in a domestic situation. I eventually went for a Worcester 42cdi combi system with Independant zoning of the house with underfloor heating where I could (the new build portion)

System hasn't missed a beat in 4 years and with correct set up of the controls and zones is very efficient.

Most savings in heating installations come from a good spec boiler, controls and correct zoning so spend your money there IMO.
 

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