Different weights (1 Viewer)

[Jands]

Was going to get a 3500k van but see the advantage of ordering the 4400k option as want to carry a small motorcycle.
What are the differences, apart from increased payload, in changing the payload?
Also can I reclassify the weight to 3500k when over 70 if stop using the bike and don't want to have a yearly medical?

 

[pappajohn]

One difference is the amount of VED due.
3500kg could be well over £200 per year.
4400kg is a fixed £165, has been for years.

Downgrading to 3500kg.
Providing the van weighs less than 3500kg unloaded then it's only a paper exercise.
If it weighs more than 3500kg unloaded it cant be downplated to less than its actual unloaded weight
Fill in the new weight on the V5 and return it to DVLA....along with a cheque for the higher rate of VED.
It may severely restrict your payload though.

 

[MichaelT]

If you down plate to 3500 that will be the maximum you can load it at irrespective of the unladen weight so make sure you are able to run at 3500 fully laden (without motor bike) including gas, water, clothes, pots, pans, all people etc.

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[pappajohn]

If you down plate to 3500 that will be the maximum you can load it at irrespective of the unladen weight so make sure you are able to run at 3500 fully laden (without motor bike) including gas, water, clothes, pots, pans, all people etc.

I mentioned unloaded for a reason.....
No point downgrading if the unladen weight is 3499kg......1kg is no use whatsoever.
You need the unladen weigh to calculate how much payload you'll be left with.
To lose 900kg by downrating makes it unlikely it's worth considering as its not going to leave very much.
Manufacturers don't use upgraded chassis to please the buyer with more payload, it's usually because the van is unusually heavy and the actual payload may be close to the 3500kg version.

 

[andy63]

to get a 3500k

If you do go for a 3500kg van I'd be prepared to have a very poor payload..
And I reckon it's the same over most of the coach built. .
I'll give you an my example..
My Chausson 620... stated payload on that was supposed to be in the order of 450kg on the blurb but they give themselves plenty of wiggle room by stating a tolerance of +/- 5% for a start..
By the time I've done a few jobs like underslung lpg tank a second leisure battery couple solar panels ,purchased a spare wheel added a couple cupboards etc etc it's comes in at 3600kg on the weighbridge.. so has to be uprated which I expected to be fair...
But you get the idea... if you want to add a few bits and pieces to a 3500kg motor home you will need to uprate it imo.
Andy

 

[MichaelT]

I mentioned unloaded for a reason.....
No point downgrading if the unladen weight is 3499kg......1kg is no use whatsoever.
You need the unladen weigh to calculate how much payload you'll be left with.
To lose 900kg by downrating makes it unlikely it's worth considering as its not going to leave very much.
Manufacturers don't use upgraded chassis to please the buyer with more payload, it's usually because the van is unusually heavy and the actual payload may be close to the 3500kg version.

Semantics! That's why I said they should weigh it fully laden with all their stuff in (except bike) to make sure when the time comes and they choose to they can run at 3500. Your post implied that so long as it weighed less than 3500 unladen that would just be a paper exercise...

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[MC 55 FUN]

Currently V.E.D. for a 3500kg Moho is £235 p.a.

 

[andy63]

On downplating you have to provide a weigh bridge certificate to prove the weight I believe.. what you choose to have or not have in the van to obtain that weight won't matter I don't think..
I've known someone down plate and they were effectively left with no payload which was impractical but allowed them to drive on their curgent licence..
Fine unless you are pulled and checked.
Andy.

 

[MC 55 FUN]

If you do go for a 3500kg van I'd be prepared to have a very poor payload..
And I reckon it's the same over most of the coach built. .

Our Moho is 3500kg & has a 635kg payload, no doubt insufficient for some, but works for us.
I do agree with your point that added extras will reduce this figure.

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[Jands]

The van I am looking at at 3500k has a payload of 550k. Upgrading to 4400 increases the unladen weight by 40k so payload will increase to 1410k, assume that axle weights will increase by the same proportion.
This will give plenty of payload for a more suitable bike and stuff.
Downgrading will give me 510k which should be enough without motorbike.

 

[andy63]

Our Moho is 3500kg & has a 635kg payload, no doubt insufficient for some, but works for us.
I do agree with your point that added extras will reduce this figure.

As long as you know that's the case by using a weigh bridge and not just believing what they say
To be fair again my eg quoted above was with full water diesel and lpg... but no mountain bike ,kayak clothes or food... and only me... no passanger ...so it had to be uprated...
Andy.

 

[andy63]

has a payload of 550k

The point I'm making is you don't know that... they have a 5% + or- allowance of the vehicle weight on that figure...
It's been said many times the only sure way is to weigh the vehicle as you intend to use it..
Andy

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[MC 55 FUN]

As long as you know that's the case by using a weigh bridge and not just believing what they say
To be fair again my eg quoted above was with full water diesel and lpg... but no mountain bike ,kayak clothes or food... and only me... no passanger ...so it had to be uprated...
Andy.

Yes, we loaded it up with all our normal gear, fuel, water, 2 full gas canisters, plenty of Peroni & Sauvignon Blanc, both of us & the dog etc the day after we bought it & took it to our local weighbridge, both axles within their limits & the total well under 3.5t

The only extra it has fitted is a 4.5m wind out sun canopy.

 

[Jands]

5% will give a variable of 27.5 k on the payload or 147.5k on the overall unladen weight.
A lot depends on how truthfull the manufacturer is as a 5% variation is a lot.

 

[Kingham]

............assume that axle weights will increase by the same proportion.

Don't make that assumption until you've spoken to one of the up-rate engineers (SVTech or John Ruffles) to get specific figures for your van.

I've just raised my maximum from 3500kg to 4500kg, front axle did not change at all, but I gained 200kg on the rear axle.

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[Deleted member 29692]

The van I am looking at at 3500k has a payload of 550k.

The point I'm making is you don't know that... they have a 5% + or- allowance of the vehicle weight on that figure...

And that's assuming they've been honest with the figures they're quoting which isn't always the case.

If you got 550kg from a brochure or manufacturers blurb it's safest to assume it's an outright lie. Don't even trust it will be within the 5%

Until you've seen a new weighbridge ticket treat any payload figure you're quoted as fantasy.

 

[andy63]

Don't make that assumption until you've spoken to one of the up-rate engineers (SVTech or John Ruffles) to get specific figures for your van.

I've just raised my maximum from 3500kg to 4500kg, front axle did not change at all, but I gained 200kg on the rear axle.

Just done mine to max permissible without making any alteratons and that's now 4000kg... but my max axel weights remain unchanged..

5% will give a variable of 27.5 k on the payload or 147.5k on the overall unladen weight.
A lot depends on how truthfull the manufacturer is as a 5% variation is a lot.

The 5% I'm referring to is of the weight the manufacturer class as empty weight ..in my case that's 3049kg..
So 5% of that is over 150kg approx...
So the empty weight they use to determine the payload could be 150 kg more than they state... reducing your expected payload by that amount. .
Andy

 

[Wissel]

Hi @Jands , these figures look familiar. Pilote?

If so, I did a spreadsheet with all the weights on with the 4.4T chassis. I'll attach it in case useful to you.

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[magicsurfbus]

Up-plating could involve fitting air assist suspension on the rear axle, which you'd need to add to your unladen weight when down-plating.

The small print about how your unladen weight is calculated is essential. Ours was based on water, waste, boiler, and loo flush tanks all being empty, fuel tank 90% full, only one person, and a Calor Lite 6Kg cylinder for the gas, leaving us 395 Kgs to play with.

After some juggling, including carefully weighing permanent additions like refillable gas tank, bigger leisure battery, roof bars, one or two dealer's package extras and sat receiver, and leaving habitation carpets out and rear ladder off, the two of us plus basic kit, two push bikes and not much food and drink just about stayed within the limit, and that was with the fresh water tank only half full. No way could we get 4 adults in to fill the 4 berths. Consequently we've up-plated to 3850 Kgs and gained some rear axle weight.

 

[andy63]

Up-plating could involve fitting air assist suspension on the rear axle, which you'd need to add to your unladen weight when down-plating.

I specifically asked for a max permissible weight with no modifications tyre changes etc and was happy with 4000kg..
I notice chausson can provide the vehicle plated as that as on option so it would appear the 3500kg is supplied as such to cater for the majority of car licence holders.. that point has been made by others before ... but I think it's fast becoming an unrealistic target for a modern motor home ....
Andy.

 

[Jands]

Hi Wissel.
Yes looking at the P740C.
Have you put yours on a weighbridge ?
If so how far is the actual vans weight compared with Pilotes quoted figures?

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[Kingham]

Just done mine to max permissible without making any alteratons and that's now 4000kg... but my max axel weights remain unchanged..........
Andy

Which goes to prove the point I was trying to make for Jands, he was assuming that both of his axle weights would increase by the same proportion as his overall maximum weight increase, only my rear axle increased and not at the same proportion that my maximum weight did and yours hasn't increased at all.

Another owner of the same van, who has gone through the procedure could give a fairly good idea of axle weight increases, but the definitive answer for each individual van would come from one of the Engineers.

 

[Jands]

Will have to ask the dealer what are the axle weights of the 3500k model and the increased axle weights on the 4400k upgraded model.

 

[Wissel]

Hi Wissel.
Yes looking at the P740C.
Have you put yours on a weighbridge ?
If so how far is the actual vans weight compared with Pilotes quoted figures?

Hi @Jands
I don't have the Pilote yet - just leaning towards ordering one so doing my research

The figures I used were supplied by another member on here who does have a P740.
(someone who was very thorough, so I think they are close as damn it)
His original post is in this thread:
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/pilote-p740gj-anyone-have-one-or-similar.158073/

The payload figures from Pilote are quite misleading I think as they don't even allow for a driver on board. Mind you, I suspect these figures are misleading from most manufacturers.

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[Jands]

Saw they don't include a driver, little bit of water, 90% fuel and 1 gas bottle.
Also no spare wheel which I think is essential.
Once in any sensible road ready state I expect the payload will be greatly reduced

 

[clanjones]

One disadvantage over 3500 Kg is motorway tarrifs if you use them, of course. By this I am meaning Austria and the Pain in the A*&^ Go Box. If you are 3500kg or below it is a simple vignette.

I haven't investigated other countries but there will be other folks on the forum who have. We have a plated weight of 4250Kg and we were aware this before purchase but it is not a showstopper.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Will have to ask the dealer what are the axle weights of the 3500k model and the increased axle weights on the 4400k upgraded model.

What on earth makes you think the dealer will tell the truth even if they know the answer?