Defibrillator

[Steve and Denise]

In 2016 we bought a Physio control defibrillator and thankfully never had to use it fully, we bought this particular one as it was the same one used by the Lincolnshire ambulance service.

we now need to buy a replacement battery and pads as the shelf life has now gone over the date only to find the model is now discontinued

we are now looking to replace the complete unit the last one cost £650+vat a new equivalent is around £1000+vat

why should we have to pay vat on this type of equipment I don’t know, and also only our NHS management could buy units that were going to be discontinued.

Lesson learned never follow advice from your local NHS

 

[Two on Tour]

When we bought our defib I was obviously hoping that we would never have the need to use it and hoped as it has it would quietly sit there and travel with us in the van.
After some research, I when for the Zoll AED Plus as the batteries are easily replaceable CR123A type at about £25 with an up to 5 years standby time in device, and this type of batteries are very likely to still be available in the foreseeable future unlike the specific to device batteries that a lot of defibs use.
The other thing that drew me to the Zoll was the price of replacement pads are a sensible price compared to other makes of defibs when they time expire.

Totally agree with you on the fact that equipment that can and does save lives carries VAT.

 

[Otter Spotter]

Don’t want to appear insensitive but why carry a Defib? History of heart trouble or just being cautious?

 

[Two on Tour]

Don’t want to appear insensitive but why carry a Defib? History of heart trouble or just being cautious?

For us, it's the "you never know it could be you" and is your life worth £1000 to you?
No history of heart problems for either of us, but how many people have not had any indication of heart problems and die of a heart attack?

Funny how the human mind works.

We have been happy to spend thousands on our motorhome by fitting a levelling system, solar panels, lithium battery, B2B, cab blinds, extra security, so on and so on, but we hummed and harred about investing in a defibrillator due to their cost.

After coming to our senses and realising that our lives are worth more than a grand or so, so we have bought a defibrillator just in case, which can be in easy reach when at home or away in the motorhome.

We were at the Eden Project last month, when the chap in front of us fell to the ground going blue having a heart attack, and what kept him alive until the paramedics arrived, a difib that was to hand and CPR.

 

[Otter Spotter]

Wow, I wouldn’t trust my other half to use a defibrillator on me, she would kill me with it just because of indigestion!
I think I am going to have to nip back to Wissel and get him to fit a single bunk for a nurse to travel with us

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[Brains]

Mate of mine, 54 years old, cycles everywhere (well over 7k PA), not overweight etc. no history of heart issues had a heart attack, luckily he was in the queue A&E at the time as his Mum had taken him there as he was not feeling well and the GP was closed.

So you never know when one might be useful.

 

[Steve and Denise]

Don’t want to appear insensitive but why carry a Defib? History of heart trouble or just being cautious?

Well my wife’s parents both died of heart attacks mum at 50 dad was much older at 69 after having a bypass 10 years earlier also I have AF,

that was the main reason but also now attending quite a few rallie/ events where the average age is north of 60 years of age it may also help someone who hasn’t bought one

 

[Otter Spotter]

Ok so are you all trained to use a defibrillator? and what happens after you have jump started them.
I am being contrary, I suppose I am a bit of a fatalist, if it’s my turn, let me go, I don’t want to end up as a cabbage with little or no quality of life and after a heart attack we would both be too nervous that it would happen again and be frightened of going anywhere then. Just me, no criticism of you.

 

[Two on Tour]

Ok so are you all trained to use a defibrillator? and what happens after you have jump started them.
I am being contrary, I suppose I am a bit of a fatalist, if it’s my turn, let me go, I don’t want to end up as a cabbage with little or no quality of life and after a heart attack we would both be too nervous that it would happen again and be frightened of going anywhere then. Just me, no criticism of you.

Yvette is defib trained as the company she worked for was very proactive with staff safety and wellbeing.
The defib we have as are most, are automatic or semi-automatic in that the unit talks you through each step of using the device as you are using it, basically you press the start button and do as your told, so there is no real need to be trained to use one.
You have more chance of being left a cabbage if you do not have access to a defib as the likelihood is that if someone is about when you have a heart attack then they are likely to do their best to save you, and with your heart not beating, then you are not getting oxygen to your brain, but if your heart can be shocked into beating, then the oxygen supply reduces the chance of your brain dying.

As an example, 25 year old electrician accidentally got a wack off of a 415 volt supply where Yvette worked, which stopped his heart.
Luckily for him, there was a defibrillator to hand and after two shocks from the defibrillator, his heart was restarted before the paramedics arrived. He left hospital the next day, and what if a defibrillator was not to hand ?

 

[Steve and Denise]

Ok so are you all trained to use a defibrillator? and what happens after you have jump started them.
I am being contrary, I suppose I am a bit of a fatalist, if it’s my turn, let me go, I don’t want to end up as a cabbage with little or no quality of life and after a heart attack we would both be too nervous that it would happen again and be frightened of going anywhere then. Just me, no criticism of you.

Don’t worry I won’t jump start you as the pads are expensive yes we have had training from the NHS but as a previous poster says it can happed to some fit people that go on to lead a normal life for years, I think I would like at least one try a stroke is more frightening to me.

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[Justus3]

Ok some confusion is entering this thread.
The item thats being talked about is not a traditional now mostly old school Defib. But an AED Automated External Defibrillator
If a AED is available then anyone can use them with no training. they are fully automatic from the time you open the lid they tell you what to and when. They will not shock anyone if once it analysers for a heart rhythm. You can't just shock anyone and everyone the machine won't work. They are totally save to use and if one is around please use it.

They save lives , they are now more common and can be found in most public places.
On the subject of CPR if your not able or willing to do the breaths then carry out compression only CPR. In fact it's best if you're not well trained and use to moving from breaths to compressions.
The main thing is get help , call 999 and push hard and fast in the centre of the chest.
Basic early intervention works and give anyone the best chance of life.

 

[Steve and Denise]

From what I understand the aed stops the heart and allows it to return back to synus rhythm or that what they told me when they stopped mine the last 2 times.

 

[Justus3]

From what I understand the aed stops the heart and allows it to return back to synus rhythm or that what they told me when they stopped mine the last 2 times.

Basically yes

 

[suavecarve]

As per others explanations of "Just follow the verbal instructions" CPR and 999 (for arguements on another thread but What3words is extremely helpful here as I have to call emergency services maybe 2-3 times a day in busy periods at work including last night with W3W being essential for my safety on that one !)
I have AED training every 6 months and First Aid refresher every 6 months as do all my staff. We have 7 AEDs on one site and 4 on the other.
I would think we grab them once a week (4 shifts so 4 times a week) dependant upon the information that comes through to us.
Used in anger once in this job in 13 years but have had it out open and ready to put on maybe 6 times and taken it with me numerous times
The one usage was a lucky one. He was 50 yards away, the defib was next to me, there were 7 trained staff dealing with him within 2 minutes, I was on CPR within 30 seconds of the call, he was zapped 4 times by us and 3 by paramedics. We also managed what was described as an outstanding handover to paramedics who nominated us (and we got) The Royal Humane Society Award for saving a life.
This occurred on the Friday, a photo of him holding his first Grandchild on the Sunday (in a different hospital) (born on the Sunday) takes pride of place in our mess room as a reminder.

Even if thinking about it, its worth watching a video or 2 to alleviate concerns. as you may need to use one one day.
If in a position to be able to afford one then far better to be thinking in a few years time, "Quite glad I got one of them" than not having the capacity to think about the money you saved because youre dead.

 

[Justus3]

Anyone who wants a very handy and simple to understand first aid app which inc a great section on CPR and AED use complete with video.
Download the Redcross frist aid app. It's first aid but without the suff that often puts many off. Basics never change it's the added on bit that do. Download it for free one simple app for all agers.

What 3 words is not without issues and not every controlled room or service has access to it. OS do a locate me app free to use and really useable information that control rooms can use.

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[Otter Spotter]

OK you’ve sold me on the idea but it’s a bit like my daughter for the last 12months or so has been learning British Sign Language (BSL) and she has passed a number of of exams and has become very proficient, but when I asked her ‘how often do you actually come into contact with a signing death persons she admitted never, so far

 

[tacr2man]

I carried a AED in my RV and now in the overlander, have a Sticker by the door so that any parked by me know one is available. I was a first responder for several years , so bought one to carry myself after first hand experience of how big a difference timely intervention can make . As Justus3 says you cant harm anyone with one trying to help them .

 

[Justus3]

Someone is admitted to a UK hospital every 5 mins with a heart attack it's more common than you think.
Look at this way would you want someone to help you ? It don't take much to save to life but the effects to others last a life time.

One other thing if you are involved in a group, school, club ect who have or are buying an AED. Check with who ever in charge or make sure someone has/ or once you have it do so.
Make sure it's registered with the National Defibrillator Network called The Circuit

National Defibrillator Network - The Circuit

We've joined forces with the NHS and other health authorities to build a defibrillator network, meaning ambulance services can locate defibrillators to treat people who suffer cardiac arrests.

www.bhf.org.uk

That way Abmo service can tell others who need where one is.
1000's are not and no one has any idea about them.

 

[Steve and Denise]

OK you’ve sold me on the idea but it’s a bit like my daughter for the last 12months or so has been learning British Sign Language (BSL) and she has passed a number of of exams and has become very proficient, but when I asked her ‘how often do you actually come into contact with a signing death persons she admitted never, so far

Just as well we are not all in that sixties frame of mind

 

[jumar]

I was frontline Emergency Service Officer for 30 years....the equipment I had at hand enabled me to carry out my tasks....
When I retired I still had a moral responsibility to assist those in distress....but without the equipment I was used to having at hand became at times quite testing...I had on many occasions been in the right place at the right time....AED's were not common when I retired, but are now, and they must have saved many a life....with no guaranteed attendance time for an Ambulance, anyone who at there own expense decided to buy there own, is in my opinion doing a great service to their fellow humans...well done you. Saving a life is one of the most satisfying experiences there is...

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[Steve and Denise]

I was frontline Emergency Service Officer for 30 years....the equipment I had at hand enabled me to carry out my tasks....
When I retired I still had a moral responsibility to assist those in distress....but without the equipment I was used to having at hand became at times quite testing...I had on many occasions been in the right place at the right time....AED's were not common when I retired, but are now, and they must have saved many a life....with no guaranteed attendance time for an Ambulance, anyone who at there own expense decided to buy there own, is in my opinion doing a great service to their fellow humans...well done you. Saving a life is one of the most satisfying experiences there is...

I agree the only one thing that is more satisfying is having your life saved

 

[carolyn]

If the AED won’t let you shock the person and they are still unconscious and not breathing, please give CPR a go as they are ”dead” , you can do no harm whatsoever. Their only hope is the speedy arrival of Paramedics armed with adrenaline and maybe other drugs who can get the heart going into a shockable rhythm, unlikely but it might happen if you’re near a hospital.

My certificates are still up to date and I plan on keeping them that way, I have face masks in all my handbags though as I’ve seen the state of some of your mouths and teeth!

 

[Googlebot]

In 2016 we bought a Physio control defibrillator and thankfully never had to use it fully, we bought this particular one as it was the same one used by the Lincolnshire ambulance service.

we now need to buy a replacement battery and pads as the shelf life has now gone over the date only to find the model is now discontinued

we are now looking to replace the complete unit the last one cost £650+vat a new equivalent is around £1000+vat

why should we have to pay vat on this type of equipment I don’t know, and also only our NHS management could buy units that were going to be discontinued.

Lesson learned never follow advice from your local NHS

You do know manufacturers discontinue their products even when the NHS Managers don’t want them to?

Since I started in the NHS we are probably 5 versions on from with what we started with. There are many reasons but mainly the fact that newer ones automatically work out the impedance and give a biphasic shock which is far more effective with less ooompff.

All of that is very good for your heart even if it hurts the wallet. It’s why we spend your hard earned tax cash on the best stuff, the more public we save the better.

So apologies if the NHS couldn’t tell the future, but it will be for the best should the worst happen.

 

[Justus3]

If the AED won’t let you shock the person and they are still unconscious and not breathing, please give CPR a go as they are ”dead” , you can do no harm whatsoever. Their only hope is the speedy arrival of Paramedics armed with adrenaline and maybe other drugs who can get the heart going into a shockable rhythm, unlikely but it might happen if you’re near a hospital.

My certificates are still up to date and I plan on keeping them that way, I have face masks in all my handbags though as I’ve seen the state of some of your mouths and teeth!

In that case effective CPR is mostly the only way to get into a shockable rhythm. So even more important the main thing is doing nothing is not an option it wont make the situation any worse but my make it a whole lot better.
With breathing the key wording now is are they breathing normally anything other than that start CPR. Don't wait for it to stop It's likely to stop at some point.

 

[Steve and Denise]

You do know manufacturers discontinue their products even when the NHS Managers don’t want them to?

Since I started in the NHS we are probably 5 versions on from with what we started with. There are many reasons but mainly the fact that newer ones automatically work out the impedance and give a biphasic shock which is far more effective with less ooompff.

All of that is very good for your heart even if it hurts the wallet. It’s why we spend your hard earned tax cash on the best stuff, the more public we save the better.

So apologies if the NHS couldn’t tell the future, but it will be for the best should the worst happen.

Well it hurt my wallet not so much the £650 but the bloody VAT and the NHS have always been good at spending money not always in the most effective ways, but that’s management in general

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[stevewagner]

You do know manufacturers discontinue their products even when the NHS Managers don’t want them to?

Since I started in the NHS we are probably 5 versions on from with what we started with. There are many reasons but mainly the fact that newer ones automatically work out the impedance and give a biphasic shock which is far more effective with less ooompff.

All of that is very good for your heart even if it hurts the wallet. It’s why we spend your hard earned tax cash on the best stuff, the more public we save the better.

So apologies if the NHS couldn’t tell the future, but it will be for the best should the worst happen.

Well said. Tech is changing all the time and I would have said that 6 years is a good lifespan for that type of equipment. The other thing worth remembering is that when the NHS and other public organisations purchase equipment they plan when to replace it and budget accordingly. Even the inland revenue only allow four years for capital equipment depreciation

 

[Wildbill]

Do sumthing thay my live do nothing and thay will die
Bill

 

[Googlebot]

Do sumthing thay my live do nothing and thay will die
Bill

Exactly this.

When I teach first aid courses, I drum it into people that you can’t make things worse by having a go.

 

[Steve and Denise]

I had an instance when walking into our local pub and an old guy was on a bench not breathing with his wife rubbing his hand and a few people stood messing around, I said get him on the ground and give cpr his wife replied you can’t he has a valve fitted, myreply was well he is dead at the moment but she was not going to let me move him.

around 20 minutes later the ambulance arrived put him straight on the ground and started cpr then a few shocks and got him going but later that day died in hospital.

I often wonder if the outcome could have been different, since then we had a AED fitted to the wall of the village pub.

 

[Justus3]

Sadly things like this happen reminds me of a lad locally who was hit by a car his mother would not let anyone near him he dead laying in the road. He only needed his airway opening.
Both these examples are down to fear by love ones.
But a word of warning if anyone standing around ever tries to stop someone who knows how to help. They will have to face one very angry coroner if they die.It's also handy to tell them when some prat tries to stop you. Now if the one trying to help is a HCP or emergency service staff even better as it's also a criminal offence.

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