Council Tax and Full Timers

[scotjimland]

I thought that prescriptions could only be obtained for a period of 3 Months.
Jm

When we left, we required medication for Charlotte who suffered from asthma, three months was the max we could have..
however our GP , (oddly he was Spanish) .. gave us a letter which we could use if required in Spain, fortunately she grew out of it and was never required.,

 

[barryd]

Jim. Your advice on full timing and the threads that have been running regarding the FT lifestyle are invaluable. As our time comes nearer I will re-read them all over and over again. Thanks very much for you (as always) useful info.

I fail to see however how anyone can try and "council tax" a moving vehicle and how the hell did they find you on a CL? Presume some do gooder dobbed you in.

I cant wait to full time but as a self employed business owner you can just bet that a year down the road when in Greece or somewhere I will start getting letters about where all my income has gone and why my tax bill has gone down. If they think Im coming back to answer them they have another thing coming. Cant wait to get away but I bet its not all plain sailing!

 

[Snowbird]

Regarding the 6 month prescriptions,up untill 2 years ago I used to get 6 month prescriptions from my doctor,then I went in one day for my 6 month checkup and repeat prescription to be told that from now on he was only allowed to give 3 month ones.

 

[scotjimland]

I fail to see however how anyone can try and "council tax" a moving vehicle and how the hell did they find you on a CL? Presume some do gooder dobbed you in.

I really don't know who tipped them off .. a neighbour, another CL guest perhaps, who knows.. there are plenty of busy people about .. An RV parked up is difficult to disguise and easy to remember. A euro van may have gone un noticed.

When I visited the council office I explained we were a MOTORHOME not a static caravan, but the subtle difference seemed to be lost on them .. especially when I said it was an RV oh:

Their argument was that it was academic, whether a caravan or motorhome as I couldn't provide proof or residence or having payed council tax in England in the past three years then I was classed as a traveler and I was required to pay council tax , same as Gypsies who use sites.

So, in the eyes of the council, if you are full time you are classed as a traveler.. hence my advice to keep moving, don't stay longer than 28days, keep a low profile, do not use a CL or site as a c/o address for any official mail, claim any benefits, or in any way let them know you exist.

It was this problem that put the last nail in the coffin of full timing for us.. it was just too much hassle. We admitted defeat.

 

[Patrick]

I really don't know who tipped them off .. a neighbour, another CL guest perhaps, who knows.. there are plenty of busy people about .. An RV parked up is difficult to disguise and easy to remember. A euro van may have gone un noticed.

When I visited the council office I explained we were a MOTORHOME not a static caravan, but the subtle difference seemed to be lost on them .. especially when I said it was an RV oh:

Their argument was that it was academic, whether a caravan or motorhome as I couldn't provide proof or residence or having payed council tax in England in the past three years then I was classed as a traveler and I was required to pay council tax , same as Gypsies who use sites.

So, in the eyes of the council, if you are full time you are classed as a traveler.. hence my advice to keep moving, don't stay longer than 28days, keep a low profile, do not use a CL or site as a c/o address for any official mail, claim any benefits, or in any way let them know you exist.

It was this problem that put the last nail in the coffin of full timing for us.. it was just too much hassle. We admitted defeat.

Jim your experiences are really priceless to many on this site. A big thank you for all your knowledge and sharing it with us!:thumb:

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[Dodgey]

Jim your experiences are really priceless to many on this site. A big thank you for all your knowledge and sharing it with us!:thumb:

I'll second that (again):thumb:

 

[Pollik]

Thirded!

We are just starting out - my ultimate goal is likewise to do without a permanent base, just a box for things like insurance, car tax and bank accounts.

The state never likes non-conformists...as I have found out, only too often (nothing to do with travelling).

 

[harryoxford2]

Interesting....one side of me says yes pay rates...the other side says surley thats the site owners duty as its his bins that are taken away, his water supply etc. So if council tax is payable even when paying a site fee, then similarly one must be liable for water rates, a local precept to the village council etc....
The money does come from central governemnt too and we all pay taxes to them from pensions etc so we must be half paying.


Anyway never mind all that...how can you get the most out of your council once you have paid your dues...

Many councils annouince they refuse to repair certain types of roads due to shortage of funds, or failo to maintain footpaths and overhanging plant and tree life
...of course they accept by that statement that they commit an illegal act ..the same as if the individual refused to pay council tax.

Just bang a claim in for your car repairs and for contact lenses lost through overhanging trees etc..if you have the stomach for it.

If anyone saw the film "V" tounge in cheek about Blairism was my interpretation, but one statement in the film was certainly true to me.."The people shouldnt be afraid of their governments, the governments should be afraid of their people."

The Councils and Governemnt cant and shouldnt have their cake and eat it. Collecting taxes and then refusing to repair potholes, or expensive claims accounts for moats and the like.
Anything they do wrong..be merciless claim claim claim...for sure if you do anything wrong they will be merciless with you.

 

[scotjimland]

No one has accused me of making all this up , but it has been questioned on another forum.

Fortunately I kept all the council letters and court summons. I can supply copies if anyone has any doubts ..

I STRESS >> I am not an expert on council tax, how it is calculated ..or levied, or how to avoid paying .

I can only say what happened to me .. here are the details.


Details of dates

My first bill was for £122.32 for period 13/03/09 - 31/03/09 issued 22/12/09
second adjustment notice £447.71 for period 1/04/09 - 15/09/09 .. the date we left the site and went into a rented house.

19/01/10 summoned to the magistrates court for non payment of council tax.
Total due £660.03
to appear in court on 17/02/10

I contested the bill with the council and the court appearance was subsequently dropped .

 

[Jim]

No one has accused me of making all this up , but it has been questioned on another forum.

Fortunately I kept all the council letters and court summons. I can supply copies if anyone has any doubts ..

I STRESS >> I am not an expert on council tax, how it is calculated ..or levied, or how to avoid paying .

I can only say what happened to me .. here are the details.


Details of dates

My first bill was for £122.32 for period 13/03/09 - 31/03/09 issued 22/12/09
second adjustment notice £447.71 for period 1/04/09 - 15/09/09 .. the date we left the site and went into a rented house.

19/01/10 summoned to the magistrates court for non payment of council tax.
Total due £660.03
to appear in court on 17/02/10

I contested the bill with the council and the court appearance was subsequently dropped .

Must have been a worrying time Jim. Council tax is often on the list of things that potential full timers want to leave behind them - they'll know now after your experience.

With council tax they base it on the value of the home, so did they just dump your RV on the lowest tax band and ask you to pay?

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

Must have been a worrying time Jim. Council tax is often on the list of things that potential full timers want to leave behind them - they'll know now after your experience.

With council tax they base it on the value of the home, so did they just dump your RV on the lowest tax band and ask you to pay?

Yes.. very worrying Jim

Band A

 

[scotjimland]

To scotch any doubts
see attached court summons for non payment of council tax (my new home address erased )

when I received a call from the council that the summons was dropped I wrote the ink comment at the top. .

 

[John & Joan]

Hi John, any chance I could get a peek at your policy from Comfort. Every time I have given them the opportunity to confirm in public that they will insure full timers it has not been taken up. Cheers

Hi Jim the info is here:

Link Removed

The information is at the very end page 2 of the document. It is available on their website.

We have been accepted as and paid the rate for Full Timing. Therefor we do not need an address other than a contact one. It amounted to a further £350 for 9 months last year on top of our existing premium. Our Smart Car insurance also went up because it is being transported behind the Motorhome on a trailer (therefor not garaged). That is £700+ from this renewal. I expect to be paying about £900 to £1000 for the Motorhome insurance in December. Any savings in Council Tax are taken up by this extra insurance on the vehicles because we are using them full time.

On our schedule it is marked Full Timing.

John

Couldn't get back in yesterday because of poor vodafone signal.

 

[John & Joan]

I thought that prescriptions could only be obtained for a period of 3 Months.
Jm

We got 6 months last October and when I saw the doctor last week he said he would sort out another in November as we are off to Spain until April/May.

I have COPD and he said the warm weather would be advantageous for me. I have 6 monthly check ups for this and Hypertension.

John

 

[Pollik]

With council tax they base it on the value of the home, so did they just dump your RV on the lowest tax band and ask you to pay?

That's a jolly interesting question.

I see that there is quite a long thread here Link Removed on the topic (I haven't read it yet)

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

We have been accepted as and paid the rate for Full Timing. Therefor we do not need an address other than a contact one. It amounted to a further £350 for 9 months last year on top of our existing premium. Our Smart Car insurance also went up because it is being transported behind the Motorhome on a trailer (therefor not garaged). That is £700+ from this renewal. I expect to be paying about £900 to £1000 for the Motorhome insurance in December. Any savings in Council Tax are taken up by this extra insurance on the vehicles because we are using them full time.

On our schedule it is marked Full Timing.

John

Thanks John , useful information

just to clarify .. how much will the renewal premium be for both motorhome and car ?

 

[John & Joan]

From a previous Link Removed

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST

I refer to your email dated 13th September 2007.

I confirm that the Valuation Office Agency has no knowledge of the content of your email, has no information concerning this subject and has not been involved in discussions concerning the taxing of Motor homes.

I would point out, however, that under existing rules, a motor home qualifies as a caravan under existing legislation*. If such a caravan is used as a permanent sole or main residence, and is located on a recognised pitch, and the vehicle always returns to that pitch, then the pitch will fall to be treated as a dwelling for Council Tax purposes. Similarly, if such a vehicle became permanently located on such a site, the pitch together with the caravan would be treated as the dwelling.

The treatment of caravans for Council Tax purposes is published in the Council Tax Manual Practice Note 7 available on the VOA website. (http://vo.inrev.gov.uk/TheLibrary/CT...tml#P265_18949)

That scenario appears to be different from the content of your email.

Yours sincerely

Justin Giles
Justin Giles
Council Tax (Technical)
Valuation Office Agency

* A caravan is defined in section 66(7) of the LGFA 1988 by reference to Part I of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. That Act, as amended, by S.13 of The Caravan Sites Act 1968, provides that:
“Caravan” means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted…..”

John

 

[scotjimland]

This clause explains why the council sent me a bill

I would point out, however, that under existing rules, a motor home qualifies as a caravan under existing legislation*. If such a caravan is used as a permanent sole or main residence, and is located on a recognised pitch, and the vehicle always returns to that pitch, then the pitch will fall to be treated as a dwelling for Council Tax purposes. Similarly, if such a vehicle became permanently located on such a site, the pitch together with the caravan would be treated as the dwelling.

If you are full time without a home your motorhome is your residence and therefore is liable for council tax

The key words are 'sole' , 'main' and 'permanent'

they just have to catch you !

 

[John & Joan]

This clause explains why the council sent me a bill



If you are full time without a home your motorhome is your residence and therefore is liable for council tax

The key words are 'sole' , 'main' and 'permanent'

they just have to catch you !

The key is as you said at first Jim. Keep moving. The other key word is pitch

is located on a recognised pitch, and the vehicle always returns to that pitch

not site so if you move to another pitch on the same site or return to another pitch each time you take the RV out then you should not be liable.

 

[scotjimland]

The key is as you said at first Jim. Keep moving. The other key word is pitch not site so if you move to another pitch on the same site or return to another pitch each time you take the RV out then you should not be liable.

Indeed .. and thanks for the information ..

However, I wouldn't depend on just moving pitch on the same site to avoid being sent a bill .. better to move out of the county, or better still.. France..

I'm glad I started this thread as other fulltimers will be better informed than we were and can take steps to avoid having an unwelcome council letter drop on their step .. and a court summons for non payment.

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[artona]

From a previous Link Removed

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST

I refer to your email dated 13th September 2007.

I confirm that the Valuation Office Agency has no knowledge of the content of your email, has no information concerning this subject and has not been involved in discussions concerning the taxing of Motor homes.

I would point out, however, that under existing rules, a motor home qualifies as a caravan under existing legislation*. If such a caravan is used as a permanent sole or main residence, and is located on a recognised pitch, and the vehicle always returns to that pitch, then the pitch will fall to be treated as a dwelling for Council Tax purposes. Similarly, if such a vehicle became permanently located on such a site, the pitch together with the caravan would be treated as the dwelling.

The treatment of caravans for Council Tax purposes is published in the Council Tax Manual Practice Note 7 available on the VOA website. (http://vo.inrev.gov.uk/TheLibrary/CT...tml#P265_18949)

That scenario appears to be different from the content of your email.

Yours sincerely

Justin Giles
Justin Giles
Council Tax (Technical)
Valuation Office Agency

* A caravan is defined in section 66(7) of the LGFA 1988 by reference to Part I of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960. That Act, as amended, by S.13 of The Caravan Sites Act 1968, provides that:
“Caravan” means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted…..”

John

This really is amazing, I can't quite get my head around it. I know the campsite you were on and you would have stood out a mile to drivers on the road and the hotel next door.

If you stayed longer than 28 days then obviously you have breached the 28 day rule and the campsite would be in breach of the use of license but why would this make you liable for rates.

We no longer have poll tax in this country or do we? I thought it was the rateable tax on the property rather than the person. Is a motorhome a property? It looks like the council do. So what would have happened if you had paid the rates Jim? Would you then have been able to claim the pitch was now acceptable for permanent residential use and you wanted to build a house on it so please pass the planning permission!!

I think the lesson to be learnt by all of this is if you want to live the fulltiming lifestyle its best to have something to put into the official's boxes when they ask where you actually live.

I think you could have become a test case Jim............

 

[GJH]

(snip)

We no longer have poll tax in this country or do we? I thought it was the rateable tax on the property rather than the person. Is a motorhome a property? It looks like the council do. So what would have happened if you had paid the rates Jim? Would you then have been able to claim the pitch was now acceptable for permanent residential use and you wanted to build a house on it so please pass the planning permission!!
(snip).

Just for clarity. Liability for paying CT is laid down in the Local Government Finance Act 1992 (as amended), which was passed by parliament. Local councils have no option but to abide by the legislation.

Graham

 

[John & Joan]

If you stayed longer than 28 days then obviously you have breached the 28 day rule and the campsite would be in breach of the use of license but why would this make you liable for rates.

This is another moot point.

In the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 there is no limit to the time a caravan can stay on a 5 van (paragraph 5 Sites approved by exempted organisations) site. The limit is 5 vans at any one time.

The only limit to stay is in the rally section (paragraph 6 Meetings organised by exempted organisations) that limits any number of vans to 5 days maximum stay.

A similar limit of 28 days duration is being imposed on extended rallies (paragraph 4 "Sites occupied and supervised by exempted organisations") which is not in the 1960 Act.

I had this out with Natural England at Cambridge who are the managing agent for DEFRA.

It turned out that these limits have been agreed unilaterally by the big clubs and ACCEO in conjunction with the DEFRA solicitors. The 28 day rule has been misapplied to these sections from paragraph 2(b) (see below), it is actually to limit the length of stay on unlicenced land. Staff in the department have then been instructed to apply these rules to all exempted clubs.

FIRST SCHEDULE​

CASES WHERE A SITE LICENCE IS NOT REQUIRED



Use within curtilage of a dwellinghouse
1. A site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is incidental to the enjoyment as such of a dwellinghouse within the curtilage of which the land is situaited.

Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights​

2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall

not be required for the use of land as a caravan site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights.​

(a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining land in the same occupation, and
(b) if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that and or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human

habitation did not exceed twenty-eight.​

NOTE: Section (b) above is the 28 day rule.​

Sites ​

occupied and supervised by exempted organisations​

4. S

ubject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence

shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land which is occupied by an organisation which holds for the time being a certificate of exemption granted under paragraph 12 of this Schedule (hereinafter referred to as an exempted organisation) if the use is for purposes of recreation and is under the supervision of the organisation.​

Sites ​

​

approved by exempted organisations

5. (l) Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land as respects which there is in force a certificate issued under this paragraph by an exempted organisation if not more than five caravans are at the time stationed for the purposes of human habitation on the land to which the certificate relates.

(2) For the purposes of this paragraph an exempted organisation may issue

as respects any land a certificate stating that the land has been approved by the exempted organisation for use by its members for the purposes of recreation.​

(3) The certificate shall be issued to the occupier of the land to which it relates, and the organisation shall send particulars to the Minister of all certificates •issued by the organisation under this paragraph.​

(4) A certificate issued by an exempted organisation under this paragraph shall specify the date on which it is to come into force and the period for which it is to continue in force, being a period not exceeding one year.

Meetings ​

​

organised by exempted organisations

6. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall

not be required for the use of land as a caravan site if the use is under the supervision of an exempted organisation and is in pursuance of arrangements made by that organisation for a meeting for its members lasting not more tihan five days.​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

The two big clubs restrict the use of their 5 van sites to members only, the MCC does not. Natural England also put it over to all the other clubs that this is the rule. Again it is not in the 1960 Act. Their officer intepreted it to me, "that a member must be in a caravan on a 5 van site, only then can non members stay in the caravan". Again there is nothing in the Act that states this. When I chalenged this they had to go and seek advice and confirmation and could not do so, other than that it was the interpretation by their solicitors. ​

Para 6 rallies are for members only. Non members can use para 5 and 4 sites in their own vans.​

We have regulations being applied in respect of Caravans and Motorhomes that are not in fact law, but interpretations by department staff. It would seem that local authorities are also trying to put their own interpretations in respect of Motorhomes and Council Tax without these having a basis in law.​

It does state in paragraph 5, that the land has been approved by the exempted organisation for use by its members for the purposes of recreation. Not for permanent residence. I am now retired so all of my time is spent on recreational activities.​

John
​

 

[scotjimland]

I think the lesson to be learnt by all of this is if you want to live the fulltiming lifestyle its best to have something to put into the official's boxes when they ask where you actually live.

I think you could have become a test case Jim............

When they ask for you 'home' address you will need to be able to prove it ..ie ..rent book, utility bill etc .. just having an address with no proof or living there won't be any good. A care off address won't suffice unless you are actually paying rent.

If you keep a property you will have to show you pay the rates.. and if you do , that wouldn't be full timing would it ?

I think I WAS a test case .. how much further would you want me to have gone ?
Stay on the pitch, not pay and be arrested ? No thanks.. I'll let you have that honour Stew.

If you go back to fulltiming at least you will now be better informed of what the law is and how to avoid a court summons..

Just for information .

We inquired about a seasonal pitch at Colchester camping .. and were refused ..here is the reason:

From the sites T&Cs

People who stay on the pitch MUST HAVE a permanent residence, which can be verified by either a utility bill and a current driving licence or passport.

ie .. proof of NOT fullltiming

Frankly, full time is more hassle than it's worth .... not just an opinion but a journey we embarked on and found out just how difficult it was..

Don't shoot the messenger Stew ..

 

[John & Joan]

When they ask for you 'home' address you will need to be able to prove it ..ie ..rent book, utility bill etc .. just having an address with no proof or living there won't be any good. A care off address won't suffice unless you are actually paying rent.

If you keep a property you will have to show you pay the rates.. and if you do , that wouldn't be full timing would it ?

I think I WAS a test case .. how much further would you want me to have gone ?
Stay on the pitch, not pay and be arrested ? No thanks.. I'll let you have that honour Stew.

If you go back to fulltiming at least you will now be better informed of what the law is and how to avoid a court summons..

Just for information .

We inquired about a seasonal pitch at Colchester camping .. and were refused ..here is the reason:

From the sites T&Cs


ie .. proof of NOT fullltiming

Frankly, full time is more hassle than it's worth .... not just an opinion but a journey we embarked on and found out just how difficult it was..

Don't shoot the messenger Stew ..

Hi Jim

re Council Tax. I agree I think they were trying it on.

Colchester Camping Site. Again it is the site imposing its own conditions. Which it is entitled to do. It does not mean that it applies everywhere.

John

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}

 

[scotjimland]

Hi Jim

re Council Tax. I agree I think they were trying it on.

Colchester Camping Site. Again it is the site imposing its own conditions. Which it is entitled to do. It does not mean that it applies everywhere.

John

Hi John

whether they were trying it on or not didn't make the experience any less stressful.. nor does it mean it won't happen again..

Re sites and seasonal pitches: I wasn't inferring it was a general rule, but it's one to be aware of.

Both clubs have quite strict rules about occupation of seasonal pitches.. no doubt some are broken. eg. , being used as a 'base' while working and or as a sole residence.

In anyone is interested here is some light reading .. (I lost the will to live ploughing through it )

Link Removed

 

[Aylesboy]

Whilst useful , you don't need a C/O address , you can have a post box postal address ( although some companies are reluctant to accept ). I really do not see how any council , can charge you council tax as a full timer , if you stay < 28 days on any one site , as you could be moving in and out of a single councils jurisdiction at any point and they legally can not charge you if they are unable to accurately calculate the amount owed. Any threat to obtain money ( not sure how they would contact you ) without proof of accurate amounts owed , would be considered illegal and attempting to obtain money with menace. Staying on any site ( unless residential ) for a transient period , would be covered by the site itself , either as a business or if a residence , by the residences CT . As mentioned previously if you are intending to stay >28 then you move into the realms of residency .

 

[LesW]

Whilst useful , you don't need a C/O address , you can have a post box postal address ( although some companies are reluctant to accept ). I really do not see how any council , can charge you council tax as a full timer , if you stay < 28 days on any one site , as you could be moving in and out of a single councils jurisdiction at any point and they legally can not charge you if they are unable to accurately calculate the amount owed. Any threat to obtain money ( not sure how they would contact you ) without proof of accurate amounts owed , would be considered illegal and attempting to obtain money with menace. Staying on any site ( unless residential ) for a transient period , would be covered by the site itself , either as a business or if a residence , by the residences CT . As mentioned previously if you are intending to stay >28 then you move into the realms of residency .

First post, replying to a twelve year old thread, must be some sort of record... welcome etc...

 

[Boringfrog]

 

[Andacami]

^{_{Subscribers  do not see these advertisements}}