CL,s versus Aires (1 Viewer)

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,090
9,045
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
I think the biggest stumbling block to aires provision in the UK is the genuine fear by councils that they will become Itinerant encampments.. and it's not just imagined.. it would happen.. and in order to remove them they need to get a court order..

and after they leave there is a huge costly clean up operation .. not just domestic waste.. but piles of builders rubble and all sorts of refuse they have been paid to remove from peoples homes who think it is being taken to a landfill site.. electrical white goods, gas bottles etc etc

councils don't need or want this hassle.. and who can blame them ?

In France, no such problem, the Municipal Police move undesirables off without needing a court order.. they just drive into the aire and tell them to bugger off.. job done.
 
D

Deleted member 29692

Deleted User
I think the biggest stumbling block to aires provision in the UK is the genuine fear by councils that they will become Itinerant encampments.. and it's not just imagined.. it would happen.. and in order to remove them they need to get a court order..

I think that's another reason why areas of existing car parks would be a possible solution. They don't tend to come to those places anyway.

As an aside a small group of them, probably an advance party of a much bigger group, turned up in the car park of my gym last week just before the bank holiday. The solution the gym staff used was novel: they locked the gates, locking them in and preventing any more from joining them. The gypos really really don't like that and soon agreed to bugger off (y)
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
Relax the rules how? If you mean make it easier for private individuals or organisations to operate such stopovers I don't agree. Anyone trying to run an aire type as a commercial operation would want to charge commercial rates or and would feel compelled to justify their rates by providing extra facilities. All you would end up with would be another CL type network which isn't the answer.
This is why I think LA provision in the form of car park space with no facilities provided at all would be the most desirable option, at least initially. The set up cost would be minimal and they wouldn't need to make a profit, only charge enough to ensure it wasn't costing them anything. As we know though they aren't going to do it off their own backs, each one individually would need to have the potential benefits demonstrated. The other big advantage of using car parks is that they tick the location box without tying up valuable land that could be used for other things.

The systems in other European countries aren't really relevant to any provision here. There are many many more motorhomes in Europe with a whole different culture surrounding their use. Trying to emulate the French, or any other, system wouldn't work.

Their may be more being registered but we're still a minority and as long as large numbers of us keep using campsites it will be pointed out that there is adequate provision for us already.
Councils can't actually "relax the rules" to make it easier in that sense because they are bound by the legislation as much as anyone else. Indeed, I've not actually seen any evidence that the rules need relaxing. What puts private individuals/companies off is the high price of urban land which means it would be difficult to make a profit.
At first sight it would be cheap to use council car parks (so long as they can stand regular use by heavy vehicles) for camping (mainly legal costs) but one then has to factor in other aspects such as the effect on other users of reduction of spaces. That is where evidence of benefits comes in.
I think the biggest stumbling block to aires provision in the UK is the genuine fear by councils that they will become Itinerant encampments.. and it's not just imagined.. it would happen.. and in order to remove them they need to get a court order..
The question of travellers came up in discussions for Guisborough and the point was made that it had not happened before so was unlikely in future. Where there has been past trouble the site would probably not be suitable.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Feb 16, 2013
19,508
51,189
uttoxeter
Funster No
24,713
MH
ambulance conversion
Exp
50 years
I don't have limited experience of foreign aires, I have absolutely no experience of foreign aires. That is of little relevance to aires in the UK, though, because (as with anything else) requirements can be defined without reliance on existing solutions.
I don't understand point 1. The "rules" consist of fairly straightforward legislation governing granting of site licences and planning consent. What is more difficult to achieve is a suitable site and that is where councils "giving" something comes in because they tend to own most potentially suitable land.
Sorry, no experience of foreign Aires, how do you meen, how are you in a position to go on about uk Aires then, until you actually experienced the aire culture you just can't understand how rubbish it would be here.
 
Oct 18, 2014
1,855
1,155
Salisbury
Funster No
33,868
MH
Hymer B598 PL
Exp
Since 2013
Maybe the way should be that of politicians, don't call them Aires in the uk, just 'parking for motorhomes
 
D

Deleted member 29692

Deleted User
What puts private individuals/companies off is the high price of urban land which means it would be difficult to make a profit.
At first sight it would be cheap to use council car parks (so long as they can stand regular use by heavy vehicles) for camping (mainly legal costs) but one then has to factor in other aspects such as the effect on other users of reduction of spaces. That is where evidence of benefits comes in.

That's more or less what I said isn't it?

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
Jun 10, 2010
8,427
20,061
Shrewsbury (sometimes)
Funster No
12,013
MH
N&B Clou Liner MAN
Exp
2006
Relax the rules how? If you mean make it easier for private individuals or organisations to operate such stopovers I don't agree. Anyone trying to run an aire type as a commercial operation would want to charge commercial rates or and would feel compelled to justify their rates by providing extra facilities. All you would end up with would be another CL type network which isn't the answer.
This is why I think LA provision in the form of car park space with no facilities provided at all would be the most desirable option, at least initially. The set up cost would be minimal and they wouldn't need to make a profit, only charge enough to ensure it wasn't costing them anything. As we know though they aren't going to do it off their own backs, each one individually would need to have the potential benefits demonstrated. The other big advantage of using car parks is that they tick the location box without tying up valuable land that could be used for other things.

The systems in other European countries aren't really relevant to any provision here. There are many many more motorhomes in Europe with a whole different culture surrounding their use. Trying to emulate the French, or any other, system wouldn't work.

Their may be more being registered but we're still a minority and as long as large numbers of us keep using campsites it will be pointed out that there is adequate provision for us already.

By relaxing the rules. I meant, allowing overnighting in existing carparks with no facilities - just like you went on to say.
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
Sorry, no experience of foreign Aires, how do you meen, how are you in a position to go on about uk Aires then, until you actually experienced the aire culture you just can't understand how rubbish it would be here.
Firstly, in the UK an "aire" would have exactly the same status of any licensed caravan site unless the 1960 Act is changed and that isn't going to happen soon. Secondly, the main thrust of all calls for "aires" in the UK has been for minimal facility caravan sites. From a theoretical point of view one doesn't, therefore, have to understand what happens elsewhere but simply to understand what is stated as being required here.
From a practical point of view I was involved in the creation of the (short-lived as it turned out) "aire" at Guisborough a process which provided valuable information for any future such exercises.
 
Feb 16, 2013
19,508
51,189
uttoxeter
Funster No
24,713
MH
ambulance conversion
Exp
50 years
Firstly, in the UK an "aire" would have exactly the same status of any licensed caravan site unless the 1960 Act is changed and that isn't going to happen soon. Secondly, the main thrust of all calls for "aires" in the UK has been for minimal facility caravan sites. From a theoretical point of view one doesn't, therefore, have to understand what happens elsewhere but simply to understand what is stated as being required here.
From a practical point of view I was involved in the creation of the (short-lived as it turned out) "aire" at Guisborough a process which provided valuable information for any future such exercises.
That's just why in wont happen , for a very big start we havnt got the sort of police here , they would very soon be gypsie camps with no one wanting to move them, just wouldn't happen in France , they would be looking down a gun barrel.
If cc, or ccc had the slightest hand in it you would end up with 9 meters and facing the right way and all the other tripe they come up with, in France if there's room you are in it.
Here users would want campsite conditions and insist on caravans as well, and who would foot the bill.
 
D

Deleted member 29692

Deleted User
From a practical point of view I was involved in the creation of the (short-lived as it turned out) "aire" at Guisborough a process which provided valuable information for any future such exercises.

The Guisborough example, whatever the reason it didn't work out, is going to be what a local authority person who isn't on side and does minimal research is going to answer any new approach with.

Is there any obvious reason it didn't work Graham?
 

Lot lover

Free Member
May 13, 2016
1,291
1,617
Lot, France
Funster No
43,061
MH
Le Voyageur Integral
Exp
New boy
In my limited experience such ventures fail not through a lack of will but a surfeit of won't.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

glenn2926

Free Member
Sep 11, 2012
3,326
13,619
Gods country
Funster No
22,848
MH
Chausson
Exp
newbie hired 3
Called in at the Aire in Hawick last week, didn't stay over as it was too early in the day. However there were three motor homes there that had stayed the night previously. It was an area of the town car park specifically for motor homes . There were no extra facilities provided so no extra cost to the council. I will use it when we go that way again. Now if they (Hawick council) can do this why can't others?
 
D

Deleted member 29692

Deleted User
Called in at the Aire in Hawick last week, didn't stay over as it was too early in the day. However there were three motor homes there that had stayed the night previously. It was an area of the town car park specifically for motor homes . There were no extra facilities provided so no extra cost to the council. I will use it when we go that way again. Now if they (Hawick council) can do this why can't others?

Hawick council, like Chester and Portrush councils have had someone take the time and effort to demonstrate the potential benefits to them. We'll ignore Canterbury for the purposes of this as it has a USP that nowhere else in the UK can claim.

Unfortunately not enough people are prepared to actually put any effort in for themselves. They prefer just to moan about things and demand someone else sorts it out (y)
 

scotjimland

LIFE MEMBER
Jul 25, 2007
2,090
9,045
Suffolk Coastal District, UK
Funster No
15
MH
Timberland
Called in at the Aire in Hawick last week, didn't stay over as it was too early in the day. However there were three motor homes there that had stayed the night previously.

It's also free..

and you can get water ..

information here..

https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/20029/parking/195/motorhome_parking

parking free https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/directory_record/12881/common_haugh

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

glenn2926

Free Member
Sep 11, 2012
3,326
13,619
Gods country
Funster No
22,848
MH
Chausson
Exp
newbie hired 3
Hawick council, like Chester and Portrush councils have had someone take the time and effort to demonstrate the potential benefits to them. We'll ignore Canterbury for the purposes of this as it has a USP that nowhere else in the UK can claim.

Unfortunately not enough people are prepared to actually put any effort in for themselves. They prefer just to moan about things and demand someone else sorts it out (y)
I would try to get my local council to do something similar to Hawick but nobody in their right mind wants to come to Keighley:LOL:.
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
That's just why in wont happen , for a very big start we havnt got the sort of police here , they would very soon be gypsie camps with no one wanting to move them, just wouldn't happen in France , they would be looking down a gun barrel.
If cc, or ccc had the slightest hand in it you would end up with 9 meters and facing the right way and all the other tripe they come up with, in France if there's room you are in it.
Here users would want campsite conditions and insist on caravans as well, and who would foot the bill.
The police can only act within the powers they have by law. It is the legislation that is the important difference between the UK and France, not the police.
As for "very soon be gypsie camps" that didn't happen at Guisborough nor (as far as I know) has it happened at Canterbury, St Annes &c.
 
D

Deleted member 29692

Deleted User
I would try to get my local council to do something similar to Hawick but nobody in their right mind wants to come to Keighley:LOL:.

I've had a look at Kettering as well even though again nobody in their right mind gets within 5 miles of the place. The problem here is that the only council run car park that would be in any way suitable is in the middle of town very close to the noisy late night pubs so isn't really a good choice. I know I wouldn't want to sleep there.

We don't tour in the UK much at all so I haven't come across any other likely candidates yet but if/when I do I'll see how I get on.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
The Guisborough example, whatever the reason it didn't work out, is going to be what a local authority person who isn't on side and does minimal research is going to answer any new approach with.

Is there any obvious reason it didn't work Graham?
Only about half a dozen people paid in the 18 month trial period. It isn't clear whether more stayed without paying but it's thought that the town itself wasn't attractive enough and/or on transit routes which would have encouraged people to stay.
I would try to get my local council to do something similar to Hawick but nobody in their right mind wants to come to Keighley:LOL:.
And that is the case with the vast majority of towns in the UK, which is one reason why any blanket demand for aires is bound to fail and why cases have to be made.
Having said that, there are several rallies/THSs held by the clubs in places like Ilkley and parts of the Worth Valley might attract people. Within the wider Bradford Council area there could well be places where aires might be viable. We enjoyed a visit to Bradford (mainly for the Media Museum) a couple of weeks ago when we stayed at a C&CC meet at Hipperholme.
In my limited experience such ventures fail not through a lack of will but a surfeit of won't.
Yes, as Nick says, too many people prefer just to moan about things and demand someone else sorts it out.
 

denisejoe

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 6, 2014
5,566
11,650
Warden isle of sheppy
Funster No
32,702
MH
A Class
Exp
Since 2004
the reason a lot of aires in france have a time limit on them is that if gypsies turn up they give them the time limit then get them to move not a problem

joe
 

Photo4x4

Free Member
Jul 26, 2014
371
873
Scottish Highlands
Funster No
32,556
MH
Coachbuilt with over cab
Exp
Newbie
Only about half a dozen people paid in the 18 month trial period. .

Yes and it will never work in Scotland as many people (erroneously) think that you can park for free anywhere in any case!

KH

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 
  • Like
Reactions: GJH

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
Yes and it will never work in Scotland as many people (erroneously) think that you can park for free anywhere in any case!

KH
Happens all over. Some motorhomers (whether through lack of knowledge or simply not caring) happily ignore the law if it means they can camp where they want to. It's not just motorhomers either. Too many people in the UK today think that if there is something they want then they have a right to take it.
 
Jan 28, 2008
10,104
18,260
Dovercourt, Harwich, UK
Funster No
1,353
MH
Renalt burstner
Exp
7 years campers before that
Firstly, in the UK an "aire" would have exactly the same status of any licensed caravan site unless the 1960 Act is changed and that isn't going to happen soon. Secondly, the main thrust of all calls for "aires" in the UK has been for minimal facility caravan sites. From a theoretical point of view one doesn't, therefore, have to understand what happens elsewhere but simply to understand what is stated as being required here.
From a practical point of view I was involved in the creation of the (short-lived as it turned out) "aire" at Guisborough a process which provided valuable information for any future such exercises.
Two questions from the above if provision of aires requires a change of an act how have canterbury got round it
Could you enlighten me to what actually went wrong at guisborough
 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
Two questions from the above if provision of aires requires a change of an act how have canterbury got round it
Could you enlighten me to what actually went wrong at guisborough
It doesn't require a change. My comment was in response to the question asking how I was in a position to go on about UK "aires" so that sentence merely sets the scene - i.e. that an "aire" has the same status in law as any other caravan site. The law would only require a change if an "aire" were to be defined (in the UK) as somehow different from a caravan site.
The 1960 Act contains a provision (Para 11 of Schedule 1) "A site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land occupied by the local authority in whose area the land is situated.". Canterbury and other authorities used that provision.

In Guisborough, , it seems that the town wasn't as appropriate place for an "aire" as we had thought. Even so it was a valuable lesson that one has to be careful in identifying viable places.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

GJH

LIFE MEMBER
Aug 20, 2007
29,450
38,828
Acklam, Teesside, originally Glossop
Funster No
127
MH
None, now sold
Exp
2006 to 2022
Thinking about this thread reminded me that a number of small rugby and soccer clubs have CLs and/or allow rallies on their land. They tend to be located fairly close to other amenities in their own towns so maybe that is a potential alternative source of "aires".

They wouldn't have to be staffed all the time. At Bourton on the Water, for instance you just turn up and pay the steward when the club house is opened and at Stow on the Wold rugby club they have an honesty box.

Perhaps Funsters with connections to their local clubs might be able to suggest that they investigate certification through Fun - @Jim has the details.
 
Jul 29, 2007
6,526
39,291
Ipswich
Funster No
32
MH
RV and PVC
Exp
30 years
Ipswich tried one out, no facilities as its just a carpark, not before 20.00 and off by 08.00 and not in the best of areas, needless to say it failed.

Ian
 
Apr 27, 2008
11,794
13,956
Eastbourne East Sussex
Funster No
2,327
MH
Hymer low profile
Exp
Since 1972
There seems to be an unofficial aire on Eastbourne seafront (west end) where parking is free and overnight parking is allowed outside the main holiday period. Some do take the p!ss a bit though. There were so many motorhomes parked for Airbourne last year there was no room for cars. I think the police moved them on, they certainly disappeared quite quickly.

Subscribers  do not see these advertisements

 

Join us or log in to post a reply.

To join in you must be a member of MotorhomeFun

Join MotorhomeFun

Join us, it quick and easy!

Log in

Already a member? Log in here.

Latest journal entries

Funsters who are viewing this thread

Back
Top