Citizens Advice Bureau post re 90/180 overstay penalties and EES rollout

[Burgo]

The Citizens Advice Bureau here have just put up the post linked below re overstaying your 90d in 180d. Also worth checking is their link to the EES Entry Exit System process being wheeled out in advance of ETIAS.

Consequences of Overstaying in Spain? Fines or Expulsion

Information is added for you almost on a daily basis. We are a charity with no external funding. Any amount you are willing to donate will be greatly appreciated. The following are serious offenses: a) Being found irregularly in Spanish territory, due to not having obtained the extension of...

www.citizensadvice.org.es

Protected: EES/ Entry-Exit System. Border Control and Identify Over-Stayers

At present, the stamping of passports, biometrics and additions to a database are used for border control. The Entry/Exit System (EES) will be an automated IT system for registering travellers from third-countries, both short-stay visa holders and visa exempt travellers, each time they cross an...

www.citizensadvice.org.es

 

[deleted79651]

CAB doesn't have the facility on its site to opt out of Cookies, so I shan't bother to try to access the article. Strange approach for a an Advice Service for the individual to take ...

The EU Link and Press Release et al is here

EU EES Entry and Exit System

Steve

 

[2657]

CAB doesn't have the facility on its site to opt out of Cookies, so I shan't bother to try to access the article. Strange approach for a an Advice Service for the individual to take ...

Steve

Why do cookies worry you, can always delete them.

 

[deleted79651]

Why do cookies worry you, can always delete them.

My choice. It's a matter of principle for me, I'm not asking others to endorse or otherwise support it. If other organisations can provide simple buttons by which one can opt in or opt out, why can't an organisation that purports to advise the individual to deal with bureaucracy et seq?

Steve

 

[nicholsong]

The Citizens Advice Bureau here have just put up the post linked below re overstaying your 90d in 180d. Also worth checking is their link to the EES Entry Exit System process being wheeled out in advance of ETIAS.

Consequences of Overstaying in Spain? Fines or Expulsion

Information is added for you almost on a daily basis. We are a charity with no external funding. Any amount you are willing to donate will be greatly appreciated. The following are serious offenses: a) Being found irregularly in Spanish territory, due to not having obtained the extension of...

www.citizensadvice.org.es

Protected: EES/ Entry-Exit System. Border Control and Identify Over-Stayers

At present, the stamping of passports, biometrics and additions to a database are used for border control. The Entry/Exit System (EES) will be an automated IT system for registering travellers from third-countries, both short-stay visa holders and visa exempt travellers, each time they cross an...

www.citizensadvice.org.es

What the EES link dos not describe is how it will deal with those of us who are Resident in one EU country , who thus have the right of unlimited stay in that country but limited to 90 days in 180 in the rest of the EU.

For example if I drive from Poland to France and UK then back, the EES will record my entry back into the EU at Dunkirk. If i then stay in Poland for a year and do the same again the next year when I am leaving France will the system know of my unlimited right to stay in Poland or will it treat me as having overstayed in France or anywhere in the EU?

Geoff

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[Phill D]

nicholsong sorry you have lost me, not difficult but..

If you drive to France from Poland and back why are you recorded at Dunkirk?

You have not left the schengen and there are no checks at internal borders.

 

[nicholsong]

nicholsong sorry you have lost me, not difficult but..

If you drive to France from Poland and back why are you recorded at Dunkirk?

You have not left the schengen and there are no checks at internal borders.

Sorry left out UK bit, now edited.

Thanks for pointing out my omission.

Geoff

 

[bobandjanie]

nicholsong Geoff as you have a TIE residency card, you don't need anything else, they know exactly who you are, and where your resident.

There has been a few here in Spain that had their passport stamped, but some have not passed their card over with the passport, other is down to some border control not understanding the rules, there was one couple where they stamped his and not hers, and when it was mentioned the border control man crossed his out.

We had 10 weeks in the UK and handing our TIE with our passport, they just glanced at the TIE and waved us through. Bob.

The Entry/Exit System (EES) will be an automated IT system for registering travellers from third-countries, both short-stay visa holders and visa exempt travellers.

 

[nicholsong]

nicholsong Geoff as you have a TIE residency card, you don't need anything else, they know exactly who you are, and where your resident.

There has been a few here in Spain that had their passport stamped, but some have not passed their card over with the passport, other is down to some border control not understanding the rules, there was one couple where they stamped his and not hers, and when it was mentioned the border control man crossed his out.

We had 10 weeks in the UK and handing our TIE with our passport, they just glanced at the TIE and waved us through. Bob.

The Entry/Exit System (EES) will be an automated IT system for registering travellers from third-countries, both short-stay visa holders and visa exempt travellers.

Thanks.

Firstly what doe TIE stand for? You Spanish Residents seem to use it but I have not seen it referred to by Residents of other EU countires, so I assume it is just the Spanish designation.

Your post is saying that for leaving and entering EU one should use the ID card, but of course one would need a passport for entering/leaving UK and other non-EU/Schengen countries.

As has been discussed before the existing passport stamping system does not allow control of EU Residents' restrictions under the 90/180 limitation for travel in EU countries other than that of Residence, and it seems that the EES will not provide that control either, so the rule seems to be ineffective in policing.

ETIAS, when it comes into force, will make no difference to those of us UK Citizens carrying ID cards issued under the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement because we are exempt from the ETIAS requirements.

Do the Spanish authorities take any notice of Residents of EU countries other than Spain? At present we drive a UK-registered MH, which might attract attention, as all such vehicles might in Spain. We are hoping to register it in Poland within days. Would the Spanish authorities be interested then?

Geoff

 

[kevenh]

Why do cookies worry you, can always delete them.

And doesn’t MHF store more of our personal data than CAB would do?
CAB imo are set at the low/minimum end of data retention. I.e. just those that could gauge analysis of our browsing,

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[bobandjanie]

Thanks.

Firstly what doe TIE stand for? You Spanish Residents seem to use it but I have not seen it referred to by Residents of other EU countires, so I assume it is just the Spanish designation.

Your post is saying that for leaving and entering EU one should use the ID card, but of course one would need a passport for entering/leaving UK and other non-EU/Schengen countries.

As has been discussed before the existing passport stamping system does not allow control of EU Residents' restrictions under the 90/180 limitation for travel in EU countries other than that of Residence, and it seems that the EES will not provide that control either, so the rule seems to be ineffective in policing.

ETIAS, when it comes into force, will make no difference to those of us UK Citizens carrying ID cards issued under the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement because we are exempt from the ETIAS requirements.

Do the Spanish authorities take any notice of Residents of EU countries other than Spain? At present we drive a UK-registered MH, which might attract attention, as all such vehicles might in Spain. We are hoping to register it in Poland within days. Would the Spanish authorities be interested then?

Geoff

A TIE is a “Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero”, an identity card for foreigners which is issued to non-EU residents in Spain.
It will be the same in other countries whatever they call it, an identity card they have your photo and fingerprints and it's all tied in with your passport driving licence national insurance number and so on.

I don't think they take any notice of other EU people in Spain, our neighbour upstairs is Dutch she has two apartments one she lives in full time she is non resident and has been our neighbour for 5 years, she also owns property in Holland and Switzerland drives a Spanish car.

Our German friends are resident in Germany with property in Germany/ Switzerland and spend long winters at a villa in Spain and drive a German car.

Here in Spain its illegal to drive a non Spanish vehicle if your resident I would have thought Poland was the same.
I think having the UK registration will cause you the problem Geoff.

Bob.

 

[nicholsong]

A TIE is a “Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero”, an identity card for foreigners which is issued to non-EU residents in Spain.
It will be the same in other countries whatever they call it, an identity card they have your photo and fingerprints and it's all tied in with your passport driving licence national insurance number and so on.

I don't think they take any notice of other EU people in Spain, our neighbour upstairs is Dutch she has two apartments one she lives in full time she is non resident and has been our neighbour for 5 years, she also owns property in Holland and Switzerland drives a Spanish car.

Our German friends are resident in Germany with property in Germany/ Switzerland and spend long winters at a villa in Spain and drive a German car.

Here in Spain its illegal to drive a non Spanish vehicle if your resident I would have thought Poland was the same.
I think having the UK registration will cause you the problem Geoff.

Bob.

Bob

It is not illegal in Poland - it seems to be an Iberian attitude.

With UK Registration can one not just say 'I am on holiday'?

Not re-registering in Poland cannot be a Spanish offence, can it? Especially since the refusal of the Polish government to re-register RHD vehicles over 3.5t is contrary to an ECJ decision in 2008, which in my opinion would bind a Spanish Court even though the Polish government will not comply with it.

I know a Guardia Civile officer might not get the point.

Geoff

 

[EuroTrotters]

I’m currently relying on the Schengen calculator (s). !

 

[jumar]

I’m currently relying on the Schengen calculator (s). !

I've just had a long bike ride, lunch and am considering a Siesta....

 

[bobandjanie]

I've just had a long bike ride, lunch and am considering a Siesta....

Unfortunately some of us have to work. Bob.

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[royandsharont]

A TIE is a “Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero”, an identity card for foreigners which is issued to non-EU residents in Spain.
It will be the same in other countries whatever they call it, an identity card they have your photo and fingerprints and it's all tied in with your passport driving licence national insurance number and so on.

I don't think they take any notice of other EU people in Spain, our neighbour upstairs is Dutch she has two apartments one she lives in full time she is non resident and has been our neighbour for 5 years, she also owns property in Holland and Switzerland drives a Spanish car.

Our German friends are resident in Germany with property in Germany/ Switzerland and spend long winters at a villa in Spain and drive a German car.

Here in Spain its illegal to drive a non Spanish vehicle if your resident I would have thought Poland was the same.
I think having the UK registration will cause you the problem Geoff.

Bob.

I am not certain but think your friends bobandjanie are staying there illegally. Whilst being EU nationals my understanding was they could only spend 90 days in Spain and any longer required them to register with the police/foreigners office as temporary residents. I think this came in around 2010, before then it was 180 days. The difficulties are the no border controls between either country to monitor them but it doesn’t make it legal. I think all EU countries had/have similar rules.

If they are not on the Padron then the local authorities do not get the funding they need for their residents whilst still providing all the service and I believe this becomes a bone of contention locally.

Many Brits flouted these rules all the time, including many snowbirds and of course we now have the new rules for us.

 

[bobandjanie]

royandsharont

Your right ........ but this has alway happened, when the UK was in the club and before we had to make the decision, we was only spending 6 weeks in the UK, but at that time when you asked solicitors or a gestor a question the answer was don't tell them.
It's not like that now things have changed. Bob.

 

[gus-lopez]

Firstly what doe TIE stand for? You Spanish Residents seem to use it but I have not seen it referred to by Residents of other EU countires, so I assume it is just the Spanish designation.

As stated it is a 'Foreigners Identity Card' & standardised throughout the EU

Your post is saying that for leaving and entering EU one should use the ID card, but of course one would need a passport for entering/leaving UK and other non-EU/Schengen countries.

You do not need a passport when travelling anywhere within the schengen area.

Would the Spanish authorities be interested then?

No.

I think having the UK registration will cause you the problem Geoff.

As do I.

It is not illegal in Poland - it seems to be an Iberian attitude.

It is illegal in any country that is affiliated to the European union. The law was brought in in 1983 but most countries took 20+ years to enact it.
A national or resident cannot drive anything that isn't registered in that country. For "professional " drivers , car hire workers etc; seperate rules come in to play allowing them to do so in the course of their work.

I am not certain but think your friends @bobandjanie are staying there illegally. Whilst being EU nationals my understanding was they could only spend 90 days in Spain and any longer required them to register with the police/foreigners office as temporary residents.

They are. everyone does but as the rules mean that any eu citizen only has to leave after 89 consecutive days to reset the clock no one was ever bothered , unfortunately.
There is no such thing as a "temporary resident" . Whether you apply or not after 90 consecutive days you are a resident, if you are an EU citizen.

I think this came in around 2010, before then it was 180 days.

No it has always been 90 consecutive days making you a resident.

If they are not on the Padron then the local authorities do not get the funding they need for their residents whilst still providing all the service and I believe this becomes a bone of contention locally.

Exactly.

 

[deleted79651]

gus-lopez and royandsharont,
I think, subject to my dimming memory, that you are both '1/2 right' re the Rules change for EU Stays around 2010/11, because Gus posted about 2 months ago a reference to the old Regs being 90 days stay in 6 months, and the Regs were changed to 90 days in 180 days, and, IIRC, the 'hop over the Border and return the next day' to reset the clock was also ruled out, but the ability to police this via manual Border Checks was impossible, hence the [delayed from 2020] EES automated system.

As I said above, this is from memory, so if I've had a 'Senior/C.R.A.F.T. moment', I'll recant quite happily! I'm posting this mainly for my own edification and delight, and to check whether my recollections are in way accurate ...

Steve

 

[royandsharont]

The rules definitely changed in 2010/11 because we were living there then and it was well documented in the papers.

When registering you also had to provide evidence of being self sufficient financially and also health insurance if you were under state pension age. I remember it well because it impacted upon us at that time.

I was also pretty sure that it was 180 days before then and this would tie in with some of the other Eau countries as their rules used to be 180 or 90 days.

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