Chris Cox 'A' Frames - Legal? (1 Viewer)

Mar 12, 2012
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Hi guys,

I have my Vauxhall Agila complete with a fitted Chris Cox fully braked 'A' frame for sale in the classified section.

I negotiated a sale to some from the forum and he was coming to collect tomorrow.

I just received an email from him stating that he's had to pull out of the deal for the following:

The only reason is that I have been advised by at least 5 a-frame companies that due to recent law changes, the Chris Cox a frame does not meet the requirements of the road traffic act.

He further stated that Chris Cox went out of business because of this!

As far as I'm aware, Chris Cox went out of business over 4 years ago so recent changes couldn't have caused this.

I'm sure many are still using Chris Cox 'A' frames and remain legal. They are fully braked.

I'd be interested in any comments as I think the purchaser has been told porkies.

Cheers

John
 
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Hahahaha,

I'm guessing towing legally is a contentious issue :) I best get my popcorn too!

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Charlie

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Mmmmmmmm

All I can say is that in the U.K. it is entirely legal to use an A frame.

Unless the Chris Cox one differs from my one or any of the current other options from say Towbars to Towcars then it should be fine.

It is of course possible that the Cox one failed to meet current legislation so could be scrap.

Surely one of the 5 A frame companies has mentioned in what way it fails to comply ?

Or are you being buggered about ?
 
Feb 22, 2008
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If it's a braked a frame it's probably not illegal in the UK , many in use with no prosecutions for illegality.
Not legal in much/most of Europe.
 
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Mmmmmmmm


Or are you being buggered about ?

More often than not I give people the benefit of the doubt but, who knows, maybe I am :)

I'm sorry I raised such a thorny subject debated in many other threads.

To the others that rang me about the car, it's still available so please contact me :)

Original ad is here:
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/x-reg-vauxhall-agila-with-full-braked-towing-kit.146515/

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My Dog Likes Fishing

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Sold my Chris Cox Aframe on Ebay along with a Smart car 2 months ago. Had lots of interest and no trouble at all selling it.
 

pappajohn

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All I can say is that in the U.K. it is entirely legal to use an A frame.
Providing, and it's a big providing, the toads brake efficiency is up to trailer standards.
DVSA accept, in THEIR OPINION, a car becomes a trailer in this instance. IF IT MEETS ALL TRAILER REQUIREMENTS.
Only the law lords can decide if they are legal or not.

The buyer is either accepting what he has been told in the belief it's true, or making excuses not to buy afterall.

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Nov 4, 2011
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I use a Chris Cox A frame and can't see what makes it any different from other that are over-run type braking, you could contact the company in Sheffield, sorry don't the name, that remake Chris Cox frames in stainless steel and ask their thoughts.
I seem to remember Chris Cox packed up to move to Spain, but I maybe wrong.
 

Charlie

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If it's a braked a frame it's probably not illegal in the UK , many in use with no prosecutions for illegality.
Not legal in much/most of Europe.

There is as far as I know no question about legality in Spain. It's a no go.

As for the rest of Europe no one can say for sure ..

IF it is that France has or is going to officially ban then that's is as far as motorhoming goes for us. If I cannot tow transport for my disabled wife there is no point in continuing on. We have no interest in motorhoming in the UK.

I am desperately trying to find out what the actual position is for 2017 and on. All we have to go on is hearsay . That hearsay is from a respected forum member not one of the usual wagon jumpers who love to condemn without having a clue.
 

Charlie

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More often than not I give people the benefit of the doubt but, who knows, maybe I am :)

I'm sorry I raised such a thorny subject debated in many other threads.

To the others that rang me about the car, it's still available so please contact me :)

Original ad is here:
http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/x-reg-vauxhall-agila-with-full-braked-towing-kit.146515/


I think an excuse to pull out has been pulled out of a hat. IF 5 companies have said it's duff then your buyer would know why. If I were to phone 5 companies which I wouldn't I would ask why it's duff. Why on earth would someone phone 5 companies snyway ?

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pappajohn

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I believe the 'law' being mentioned does in fact now exist.
Over run brakes can now only be fitted to single (or close coupled) axles trailers only.
A close coupled twin or triple axle trailer means there can be no more than 750mm between adjacent axle centre's.
A car clearly exceeds this limit.
The good news.....it isn't applied retrospectively so an existing set up is still accepted....if it MEETS the minimum braking efficiency.
 
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Mar 12, 2012
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I just received this message from the guy that pulled out of the purchase:

Chris Cox was a sole trader up to 2012, specialising in the manufacture and supply of tow bars and A-frames for the Motorhome industry. He was very popular and from my enquiries made top notch quality products.

In 2012, the requirement of Motorhome Towbars and a-frames came under the 'type approved' regulations, putting not only Chris Cox, but many other small independent suppliers to the Motorhome industry out of business.

All Motorhomes registered after 2012 need to have type approved towbars and also type approved a frames.

The cost of gaining type approval is expensive. My insurance company were happy for me to tow another vehicle via an a-frame, the only stipulation being that the towing equipment met type approval. They were not interested whether the braking mechanism was mechanical or electrical operated.

The above was echoed by most of the very few remaining suppliers of a-framed.


Hope this helps
 

Charlie

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I just received this message from the guy that pulled out of the purchase:

Chris Cox was a sole trader up to 2012, specialising in the manufacture and supply of tow bars and A-frames for the Motorhome industry. He was very popular and from my enquiries made top notch quality products.

In 2012, the requirement of Motorhome Towbars and a-frames came under the 'type approved' regulations, putting not only Chris Cox, but many other small independent suppliers to the Motorhome industry out of business.

All Motorhomes registered after 2012 need to have type approved towbars and also type approved a frames.

The cost of gaining type approval is expensive. My insurance company were happy for me to tow another vehicle via an a-frame, the only stipulation being that the towing equipment met type approval. They were not interested whether the braking mechanism was mechanical or electrical operated.

The above was echoed by most of the very few remaining suppliers of a-framed.


Hope this helps

You say few remaining suppliers. This intonates that companies of which there are many are going out of business which they aren't.

What I can assure you is it's not at all likely for any of the current suppliers to endorse another's kit. Slag it off Ohhhhh yes you bet ! They really do seem to hate each other's guts.

I took much time selecting my kit. I absolutely ensured and got it in writing from my insurers (LV) that I am covered for ALL risks when towing our Toyota IQ with the MH.

They do require type approved bars but I have never heard of type approved A frames.

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pappajohn

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I have a towtal frame sat in my garage doing nowt.
Homemade brackets and a specific brake cable suitable for a '97 Vauxhall corsa.
It isn't type approved, never was and never will be just the same as ALL other A frames currently in production.
Car manufacturers DO NOT build in specific mounting points for A frames so bolting one on would not meet the cars whole vehicle type approval anyway.
which is why rear towbar fixing points ARE inbuilt and towbars ARE type approved.

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Charlie

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Definitely illegal in Germany as well.

France you know about (y)

Errr no Nick I don't know about France. A respected member said he had heard in the negative. Several other members said they were currently A framing at this very time with zero problems. I have with the help of my daughter mailed the police in France who report No change as far as they can tell us.
 
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Sales of Popcorn rocket :)

It seems the last amendment to the Vehicle Construction & Use Regulations concerning 'A' Frames was in 1989

From the Department of Transport Government site:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/a-frames-and-dollies/a-frames-and-dollies


A-frames
When an A-frame is attached to a vehicle (eg a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (eg motorhome) we believe the A-frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain.

These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/1078) as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3,500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 of C&U set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (ie servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency.

To prevent the trailer being used illegally, a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988, the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an A-frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1,500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate etc.

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of A-frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the regulations, it is only the courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.
 
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Anyone know where you can get popcorn in Spain, this could be a runner.

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Errr no Nick I don't know about France. A respected member said he had heard in the negative. Several other members said they were currently A framing at this very time with zero problems. I have with the help of my daughter mailed the police in France who report No change as far as they can tell us.

I meant you've heard that there's something in the works just like the rest of us.

It will stay the same right up until one day they'll decide it's not allowed any more and that will be that.
 

Charlie

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I meant you've heard that there's something in the works just like the rest of us.

It will stay the same right up until one day they'll decide it's not allowed any more and that will be that.

Yep guess so mate. Till there is proper clarification which there is not I personally will carry on.
 

Chris

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I can't see how the traffic cops over here would have a clue whether an A frame was a Chris Cox A frame or not.

I wouldn't know the difference between makes of A frame.

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Charlie

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I can't see how the traffic cops over here would have a clue whether an A frame was a Chris Cox A frame or not.

I wouldn't know the difference between makes of A frame.

Completely agree with that Chris. I doubt if any plod anywhere would have a clue.

Given the cost of the outfit offered for sale here it's hardly much of a risk .. I have push bikes that cost way more.

That said if someone's unsure it's their coin.
 

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If the trailer braking system has power assistance (ie servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency.

There are reasons to take issue with this statement. The purpose of the Brake "booster" AKA "Servo" is to assist the driver to be capable of applying the full effort to the braking system. However the braking system MUST still be capable of being able to apply full effort without assistance. The ultimate brake effort is neither increased nor diminished by the use or absence thereof of the servo. THAT is the factor included in the design, a mechanical Fact. In short it is down to the Right foot!. Small weak driver, or Butch Trucker, ultimately the brakes can only exert so much braking effort as a feature of the design parameters.

As For Chris Cox Frames no better or worse that any other. they do what it says on the tin!. The rest is just EU malarky!

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pappajohn

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There are reasons to take issue with this statement. The purpose of the Brake "booster" AKA "Servo" is to assist the driver to be capable of applying the full effort to the braking system. However the braking system MUST still be capable of being able to apply full effort without assistance. The ultimate brake effort is neither increased nor diminished by the use or absence thereof of the servo. THAT is the factor included in the design, a mechanical Fact. In short it is down to the Right foot!. Small weak driver, or Butch Trucker, ultimately the brakes can only exert so much braking effort as a feature of the design parameters.
Have you tried to stop a car from 30mph with a depleted servo.......I have and still have the brown stain on the drivers seat.
Even wheel cylinders and caliper pistons are a smaller size than non servo brakes to compensate for the additional servo power.
 

PeteH

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Have you tried to stop a car from 30mph with a depleted servo.......I have and still have the brown stain on the drivers seat.
Even wheel cylinders and caliper pistons are a smaller size than non servo brakes to compensate for the additional servo power.

The effort required from the "pilot" is greater, But Ultimately the Physics have the last say. the reason for your "Brown Stain":whistle: is the fact that you where not expecting it, like losing your power steering, It still steers, but is a sight mucking heavier!. now if you lost the Hydraulic Fluid?, (as I did on the R-V once) even bigger brown stain!:D2. Think back to the days before "Servo`s". Same braking system same drums / discs etc; But he "G-T" "Giha" more expensive models had Servo brakes.

That is why the larger the vehicle the Larger the breaking Disk,pad,drum area is, regardless of power or lack of. Pure physics.

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