Children on Campsites: behaviour?

camcondor

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I wondered what people's views are regarding the general behaviour of children on campsites, following the tragic death of the very small child at Rowntree Park CC site in York last week........we don't have children with us anymore but certainly don't mind well-mannered youngsters having fun around sites, even making a bit of noise within reason as that's what children do, but we HAVE noticed an alarming tendency for people to leave extremely young children totally unsupervised on bikes / scooters / skateboards / just running and flailing wildly about, invading other people's space / pitches, causing a general nuisance, and of course, the ever-present safety issues.:frowny:

Campsites for tuggers / M/Homes have lots of vehicles coming and going all the time, and access roads to my mind are not really the best place to leave unsupervised small children whizzing about on cycles / playing games etc, esp when unsupervised while parents hide behind several windbreaks knocking back booze or just talking and not being vigiliant about their kids. :Confused:

Not sure exactly what the circumstances are re York , but the Brigade of Anti-4x4ers are already baying for blood against of those of us reckless enough to dare to drive a 4x4 as 4x4 drivers are allegedly to blame for most things.

I wonder what it is that makes parents think that offspring can simply be "left" unattended despite potential danger, and then blame someone else when tragedy strikes.........
 

Tony Santara

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I reckon you just about covered it Camconder
its a trend among modern parents to let kids run amock not just on holiday but at home when my kids were young (grown up and married now) one look from me and they knew they were in trouble.
kids now give there parents a load of verbal and they seem to get away with it
its a differant world now
 
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Lindy-C

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Don't get me started on this one :Mad: :Mad:

Its almost as bad as leaving small children unattended on a busy holiday apartment complex only to allow one to be abducted :Mad: :Mad:

A VERY sore subject in my book :Mad:

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Lindy-C

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I don't think its Laurie's intention to have a rant as such Jim, its a subject that will touch a nerve with any responsible parent.

To quote from the news report....
Ken and Jacqueline Robson, from Newcastle, were onsite when the incident occurred. "We were onsite having our dinner and a woman came running up asking people if they had a little boy on a bike," Mrs Robson said.

"They were obviously trying to locate the parents. It wasn't until later on when we went to wash the dishes near the entrance to the site that we saw the ambulance and police."


This implies to me that the child's parents were not close by at the time so couldn't have been supervising him. I am sure they will carry that guilt with them always.................its so sad and could have been avoided :frowny:
 

scotjimland

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I don't think its Laurie's intention to have a rant as such Jim, its a subject that will touch a nerve with any responsible parent.
Of course it touches a nerve, and I consider myself a responsible parent but to go on about parents boozing behind windbreaks while their kids are running amok is quite frankly ranting.

Camp sites should be safe for kids to play without constant supervision, I'm not suggesting that they should do as they please but they should at least be safe to play without fear of being struck by a vehicle.. .. many sites now have strict controls on cars/vans, some even make tuggers park their cars outside the main camping area, often I have watched in amazement as someone uses their car to go to the shower block or site office..

Cars and kids need to be kept apart, this is a failure of the site staff to enforce rules and of the site owners to ensure a safe environment for the kids, not an excuse for a rant about careless or uncaring parents..

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Munchie

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Cars and kids need to be kept apart, this is a failure of the site staff to enforce rules and of the site owners to ensure a safe environment for the kids, not an excuse for a rant about careless or uncaring parents..
I'm afraid saying that "this is a failure of the site staff to enforce rules and of the site owners to ensure a safe environment for the kids" may not be the case. I'm afraid I have seen young children riding bikes on footpaths on campsites and not stopping to look when they come to the end of the path and riding straight out onto the road without slowing or looking. I have to ask you if they ran into an elderly person and injured them or worse would that be the sites fault? I don't see how the wardens can watch children all the time, surely this is the parents responsibility.

I don't know where the fault lies in this tragic case, it may well be the car drivers fault although the report states the the car was moving slowly.

This is a camp site and the use of cars or motorhomes is required even if just to park or leave the the site and roads are clear to see and both parents and children should be aware of this.
 

scotjimland

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G'morning Ken

The law is quite clear on who is responsible for ensuring the safety of pedestrians

Health and Safety act
Ensure that your workplace is organised in such a way that pedestrians and vehicles can circulate in a safe manner. (Sections 2 (1) and 3 (1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, Regulation 5 (1) of the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, Regulation 17 of the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992)

Extract
You should provide a system in the workplace which, so far as is reasonably
practicable, restricts the movement of vehicles to areas which are demarcated from areas where pedestrians have access. So far as is reasonably practicable, vehicles should beprohibited from entering the pedestrian accessed areas, and pedestrians should be prevented from entering the vehicle movement areas. Vehicle movement areas should preferably be demarcated from pedestrian accessed areas by physical barriers such as railings.


This is the Law, it does not negate parents responsibilities but the onus is on the site owners to provide a safe environment and employees to enforce any regulations which may or in this case may not be in place.
It's not good enough to say they shouldn't be allowed to cycle, if there is a danger then cycling should be banned and the rule enforced. If a traffic system has a high risk then measures must be taken so far is reasonably practical to reduce the risk to low or negligible.

Vehicle movements should be strictly controlled where there is a risk of an accident.
 

TinaGlenn

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While I can agree with your comments Jim, I can also agree with some of what Laurie has said too. It does also seem to me that some very small children do seem to be allowed to do and go where ever they want when at campsites.

We had a very unnerving time at a large campsite in Cornwall recently where a young boy of about 4 or 5 just walked into our van and started to talk to us, asked if we had any biscuits or juice and generally made himself at home. We asked him to go outside but he just sat inside looking around, we didnt have a clue who he was, or where his parents were. I finally gave him a biscuit and told him to sit outside to eat it in case of crumbs and once he was out shut the door. It was about 15 mins later when the parents walked past looking for him. Their comments?? "Oh he likes motorhomes and likes to look in them"???? I am sure we could have taken that child for a ride anywhere in the van and I doubt anyone would have been any the wiser for a long time. It turned out that they were camping right over the other side of the site from us, and thought that it was quite safe to let him wander where he wanted to.

Compare that to the caravan parked next to us at the same time, with 2 very lively and inquisitive little girls of about 3 & 5 who played on their bikes, with their football and dolls, never out of sight of mum and dad, and who when their ball went under our van got mum to come with them to ask if they could get it back. Yes they were curious about the van too, and am sure many of the football games where the ball rolled by were to get a chance to peek in, we invited the parents in for a drink so that the girls could see inside our van and they spent a very happy half an hour up in the overcab bed playing house while we chatted with mum and dad.

Our kids are older now 16 & 21, but we have taken them camping from a young age, they always found friends on sites and had lots of fun, but we always knew where they were and kept an eye on them even as they got older.

I did watch in horror recently as a child on a bike at the Clumber Park site in Nottingham only just stopped short of zooming across the road and crashing into the side of a caravan being towed along slowly and within the speed limit, he could have gone under the caravan and I doubt the driver would even have known at the time.

Tina

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Munchie

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You should provide a system in the workplace which, so far as is reasonably
practicable, restricts the movement of vehicles to areas which are demarcated from areas where pedestrians have access. So far as is reasonably practicable, vehicles should beprohibited from entering the pedestrian accessed areas, and pedestrians should be prevented from entering the vehicle movement areas. Vehicle movement areas should preferably be demarcated from pedestrian accessed areas by physical barriers such as railings.[/QUOTE]

If this is the case how would you do this? What about supermarket car parks for example?

I'm afraid I think this is a perfect example of H&S gone mad, and I worked on health and safety legislation for many years and IMHO this is what gives it a bad name. Yes practicable measures should be in place to ensure a safe environment but this does not negate parents responsibility, as we used to teach our workforce "we have a responsibility for your safety but so do you".


So far as is reasonably practicable
this is the crucial factor. Would it be reasonably practicable for vehicles and pedestrians to be separated on a camp site? I think not.
 

TinaGlenn

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G'morning Ken

Extract
You should provide a system in the workplace which, so far as is reasonably
practicable, restricts the movement of vehicles to areas which are demarcated from areas where pedestrians have access. So far as is reasonably practicable, vehicles should beprohibited from entering the pedestrian accessed areas, and pedestrians should be prevented from entering the vehicle movement areas. Vehicle movement areas should preferably be demarcated from pedestrian accessed areas by physical barriers such as railings.


This is the Law, it does not negate parents responsibilities but the onus is on the site owners to provide a safe environment and employees to enforce any regulations which may or in this case may not be in place.

Vehicle movements should be strictly controlled where there is a risk of an accident.

That is all well and good, but children also need to be told and taught not to play on roads, to stay away from moving cars, and they need to be told not to duck under safety barriers (which they often do).

You can put all the rules and regulations you want in place and try to enforce them vocally (loudspeakers, notices, warning signs) and physically (barriers & fences & tarmac/ gravel roadways), but if people do not take some responsibility for their own actions you are fighting a losing battle.

Maybe I am a bad parent by some of the softly softly approach ideas, but many years ago I impressed onto my kids that if they played in the road or ran out in front of a car they would get squashed and be dead and have to be scraped off the road with a shovel and that would make mummy and daddy very sad and would hurt them a lot too. They got the message, never had nightmares about it and still love us!

Tina
 
M

melplash

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I am sure Jim looks after his children. As more and more people go camping it does surprise me that on lots of campsites there are not actual designated walkways, seperate from roadways.

In the example of supermarkets they do often have walkways and so can therefore rightfully claim they have met their responsibilities should such a terrible accident occur.

I do think though that some people jump and automatically tut tut when they see children freely playing. Usually there is a parent somewhere keeping a careful watch.

This is such a sad incident and is probably a no blame incident but somewhere, there are parents and a car driver who for the rest of their lives will suffer from it, and of course a little child with a life no more.

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johnsandywhite

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Don't get me started on this one :Mad:

Its almost as bad as leaving small children unattended on a busy holiday apartment complex only to allow one to be abducted :Mad:

A VERY sore subject in my book :Mad:
:frowny: Looks like my first thoughts about the McCanns may be correct? :Mad:


But I hope I am wrong?
 

scotjimland

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I do think though that some people jump and automatically tut tut when they see children freely playing. Usually there is a parent somewhere keeping a careful watch.
I agree, I also agree that parents do have a responsibility, I said so in my previous post.
I think we all agree that this tragic accident was preventable but only a police enquiry can determine who was responsible..

In memory of this child, a song by Cat Stevens

Where do the children play.

Well I think its fine, building jumbo planes.
Or taking a ride on a cosmic train.
Switch on summer from a slot machine.
Yes, get what you want to if you want, cause you can get anything.

I know weve come a long way,
Were changing day to day,
But tell me, where do the children play?

Well you roll on roads over fresh green grass.
For your lorry loads pumping petrol gas.
And you make them long, and you make them tough.
But they just go on and on, and it seems that you cant get off.

Oh, I know weve come a long way,
Were changing day to day,
But tell me, where do the children play?

Well youve cracked the sky, scrapers fill the air.
But will you keep on building higher
til theres no more room up there?
Will you make us laugh, will you make us cry?
Will you tell us when to live, will you tell us when to die?

I know weve come a long way,
Were changing day to day,
But tell me, where do the children play?
 
OP
camcondor

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Exactly ..

Then why are you having a go at kids and parents .. I find your post provocative and just another excuse for a rant..
"Having a go at kids and parents"????? I don't think so, and I certainly do not expect personal attacks from you just because I dared to raise a topical issue which has ended in tragedy!!! There's enough of the personal attack behaviour on other forums and this one certainly does NOT need it. However, debating issues which are relevant is perfectly appropriate, and there is no need to attack someone else's opinion just because you don't like it or them!!

"Just another excuse for a rant" ???? Seems you are doing the ranting here! Sadly, a very small child has died, tragically, on a CC site in circumstances which indicate that he was totally unsupervised at the time of the tragedy. Some adults appear to treat campsites as play sites for their offspring and I have seen many adults ignore offspring running amok and causing a nuisance, while they hide behind the ubiquitous "windbreaks" or busy themselves with other matters other than the supervision of their children. This tragedy displays that there are dangers to children as well as the (ignored) nuisance they may cause to others.

Children under 10 have, in law, no capacity and as such require 24/7 supervision by a responsible adult. Older children can of course be given more independence but the parent obviously still has a responsibility in granting such freedom from direct supervision.

Keep the insults for another time, Jim, they are inappropriate and unneccessary and definitely belong in a different forum. This is a topical and salient issue and everyone deserves the right to have their say about it - not be attacked by you just because you have a personal problem an individual poster. People who would otherwise have contributed meaningfully have likely been scared off by your attack on me now.

Oh, and as for the folk who use cars to go to the shower block or office - many people have mobility problems and disabilities and need to be able to use their cars to do this - why shouldn't they??

Laurie

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kands

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I think we all agree that this tragic accident was preventable but only a police enquiry can determine who was responsible..
Sorry Jim, I have to disagree mate, I am not sure that accidents such as this are necessarily preventable. It would be nice to think so but in reality I do believe that sometimes accidents happen and whilst it may be interesting to debate who is responsible for this tragedy, it serves little purpose. There will be a police investigation and then the truth will come out. I think it a bit unfair of you to poke at Laurie for her comments personally, I believe that what she said was largely true, even if not in the context of this appalling tragedy and also noticed that she pointed out that the anti 4x4 brigade had already started, presumably trying to heap blame upon the driver, just because has was(?) driving a 4x4? Laurie has obviously posted her perception of a possible scenario, pointing out (without pointing a finger) the overall responsibilities of parents, however if I read your post correctly you seem to be indicating that the responsibility for everyone safety belongs firmly with the owners of the campsite.
I saw a sign on a mirror in a toilet at one of our customers, that said, quite plainly "The person responsible for your safety is looking at you" I thought that was an awesome statement ::bigsmile:
Laurie did not actually blame anyone in her post (unlike the anti 4x4 brigade) I think she was making a general observation about life on a campsite these days, and it is an observation that I for one have also made, as I am sure have many others.
I cannot follow the logic of separating pedestrians from vehicular traffic on a camp site, it is impossible without introducing a police state, and erecting barriers is just beyond the realms of reality, in my opinion, because they will restrict access to the pitches by campers, will do nothing to Shepherd the pedestrians as they will climb over or under any barrier to get where they are going, and could in extreme circumstances be used as missiles or weapons by unsavory people.
I really think that we should all wait for the inquiry to be published and then we can make our judgments, but please let us not be too judgmental about peoples honest thoughts and posts ::bigsmile: We are, after all MotorhomeFun ::bigsmile:
Thanks

Keith
 

scotjimland

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Sorry Jim, I have to disagree mate,
Keith
Hi Keith

Then we agree to disagree, I have nothing more to say on the matter, I've seen these types of threads deteriorate into a full scale battle with little achieved, friends falling out and people leaving the forum, we don't want that.

Regards

Jim
 

johnsandywhite

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I've seen these types of threads deteriorate into a full scale battle with little achieved, friends falling out and people leaving the forum, we don't want that.
:whatthe: We certainly do NOT want that. Calm down peeps. Have Fun and enjoy. :winky:

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kands

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Hi Jim
Not falling out with anyone mate ::bigsmile:::bigsmile:::bigsmile: And certainly no intention of leaving, but it is a bit difficult not to say what one feels with these emotive type of subjects sometimes isn't it?

Keith
 

scotjimland

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it is a bit difficult not to say what one feels with these emotive type of subjects sometimes isn't it?

Keith

Yes indeed, I've never been one for not saying as I think,
nor have you.. :roflmto:

Jim
 
F

fordy

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Hi all i take my kids on to a campsite so that they can have a bit more freedom in a more secure environment, but they have good road sense and know what to and not to do with regards to other campers and there pitches they may ride bikes to the swings and always have walke talkies with them. and must call in or come back to the RV before going into any of there friends vans. and yes i may have a drink of wine wile relaxing but we are always aware of what the kids are up to i think that if you cant let your kids enjoy the time away on a campsite with some freedom then there would be no point going away. and there are a lot of sites that have an adult only part or adult only sites if people don't want to be disturbed by kids playing. this is the only time my kids get to go out and explorer on there own as when we are at home i will not let them play out in the streets... just my opinion and it is very sad that a child got killed on a campsite but i think that overall sites are safe if the children know how to go on as in most things in life.

FORDY:Smile:

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"Having a go at kids and parents"????? I don't think so, and I certainly do not expect personal attacks from you just because I dared to raise a topical issue which has ended in tragedy!!! There's enough of the personal attack behaviour on other forums and this one certainly does NOT need it. However, debating issues which are relevant is perfectly appropriate, and there is no need to attack someone else's opinion just because you don't like it or them!!

"Just another excuse for a rant" ???? Seems you are doing the ranting here! Sadly, a very small child has died, tragically, on a CC site in circumstances which indicate that he was totally unsupervised at the time of the tragedy. Some adults appear to treat campsites as play sites for their offspring and I have seen many adults ignore offspring running amok and causing a nuisance, while they hide behind the ubiquitous "windbreaks" or busy themselves with other matters other than the supervision of their children. This tragedy displays that there are dangers to children as well as the (ignored) nuisance they may cause to others.

Children under 10 have, in law, no capacity and as such require 24/7 supervision by a responsible adult. Older children can of course be given more independence but the parent obviously still has a responsibility in granting such freedom from direct supervision.

Keep the insults for another time, Jim, they are inappropriate and unneccessary and definitely belong in a different forum. This is a topical and salient issue and everyone deserves the right to have their say about it - not be attacked by you just because you have a personal problem an individual poster. People who would otherwise have contributed meaningfully have likely been scared off by your attack on me now.

Oh, and as for the folk who use cars to go to the shower block or office - many people have mobility problems and disabilities and need to be able to use their cars to do this - why shouldn't they??

Laurie
Hi camcondor Laurie,
We have had the same things going off on Wildcamping and as you say I am now afraid to post as too many people are looking for any old reason too have a go!
I now note that George Telford is on here! so more reasons not to post!
Seems to me that all the forums are the same so I will keep in the back ground for now and see how things go.
I was going to come to the meet but I have decided against it as I do not want nasty people to know where I am.
Your post was quite right and not provocative.
regards Graham

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Lindy-C

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I was going to come to the meet but I have decided against it as I do not want nasty people to know where I am.
Your post was quite right and not provocative.
regards Graham
Graham....I hope you will change your mind :whatthe:
The people going to the meet are a wonderful bunch....I assure you - otherwise I certainly wouldnt be going :eek:
 
Aug 16, 2007
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Graham....I hope you will change your mind :whatthe:
The people going to the meet are a wonderful bunch....I assure you - otherwise I certainly wouldnt be going :eek:
Thanks lc1962, but I had a serious run in with George and his so called mates on Wildcamping and they all got Banned. They used a lot of alias names and they were really nasty twisted people and I think that they could be capable of anything. This is the reason that Sam has not booked the camp site , my fault as I asked her to hold fire.
I do suspect that some of them are on here!
 

Adria 5

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Thanks lc1962, but I had a serious run in with George and his so called mates on Wildcamping and they all got Banned. They used a lot of alias names and they were really nasty twisted people and I think that they could be capable of anything. This is the reason that Sam has not booked the camp site , my fault as I asked her to hold fire.
I do suspect that some of them are on here!
hi agree with lc1962 on this i urge you and samm to reconsider:winky: remember this forum is open to anyone even the dark side:whatthe::roflmto: who want to cause problems

if you know whay i mean the price you pay for a open forum i am afraid:winky:

ray

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Aug 16, 2007
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hi agree with lc1962 on this i urge you and samm to reconsider:winky: remember this forum is open to anyone even the dark side:whatthe::roflmto: who want to cause problems

if you know whay i mean the price you pay for a open forum i am afraid:winky:

ray
Thanks Saruman, lets just wait and see what happens.
It would be nice, but my faith in friendly motorhomers has had a good kicking.
And I am not alone, it is just that I speak out!
 

Munchie

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So sorry to see this happening on this site. There is room for everyones opinions and they are entitled to them but I hope no room for personal attacks. I happen to agree with Lauries post but understand that some may not. We are supposedly adults who can exchange a range of views on any subject and remain friends.

Please reconsider Samm if you don't go the spoilers win. I can't make this one only wish I could.
 
U

ukrv

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Laurie,

I agree with everything you have written - well done!

Unfortunately, there ARE far too many parents only too happy to dump their kids somewhere out of the way (and yes, of course there are others who raise their offspring with only the best in mind for them).

The campsite Im currently on has a FANTASTIC play area (read posh and expensive looking whilst being free to use) less than 100yds away from us.

It is obviously too much trouble for the adults to take the kids there so they let them play on the roads instead - which are clealry marked as one-way.

The vehicles using these roads (mainly parents as this is a family campsite) drive the twists and turns as if they were driving a rally - in either direction most convenient to them, not other road users.

At some point someone WILL get hurt - Ive seen kids racing their bikes around corners and come face-to-face with each other and fly over their handlebars, so a car WILL hit one of them.

It's an incredibly sad prospect for someone when you think the park is so close.:frowny:

Then, consider the campsite Im working at :-

Again, some great play areas - yet the kids would rather play with (and damage) the fire hoses. They would rather throw bricks thru the windows of empty vans or write grafitti on the train provided for their convenience.

Where the hell are the parents ????????

Paul

PS Fordy - I think you have the situation spot-on. If only a few more parents would put some simple rules and boundaries in place like you both have, things would be so much better. Thanks!!

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