Carrefour selling 'superior' diesel (1 Viewer)

D

DL42846

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I live in France and regularly fill up all our vehicles at Supermarkets, I can't remember when I last filled up not at a Supermarket. Never had any problems. Never tried the superior stuff, don't see the point in paying more than you have to. Up until recently I drove a work Sprinter van which had over 620,000 Kilometers all on regular diesel and never had any additives. Engine was still in top notch.
 

EX51SSS

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After @Robert Clark started this thread I filled up with the Carrefour 'premium'? fuel at Cite Europe to see if it made any difference to economy or performance.
For the next couple of days I had the worst mpg figures of the whole 2k mile trip.
Could have been coincidence but I don't think so. The thing that affects mpg most of all seems to be strong head winds rather than load or terrain. Those couple of days had light winds, easy low speed driving and no motorways.
I went back to cheap supermarket fuel afterwards and my usual 26mpg (ish) was restored.

Richard.
Strangely enough I had the same. I filled up with 'top quality ' diesel in Luxembourg. Thought I'd try a tank full to see if I agree with others that it's worth the odd tank full. As it was only €1.03 as opposed to €0.93, I thought it's still a good saving. However I reckon I got considerably less mpg with this superior diesel than my Asda diesel. OK, so it's had it's treat and hopefully I'll get back to the mpg I got before.
 

DuxDeluxe

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Strangely enough I had the same. I filled up with 'top quality ' diesel in Luxembourg. Thought I'd try a tank full to see if I agree with others that it's worth the odd tank full. As it was only €1.03 as opposed to €0.93, I thought it's still a good saving. However I reckon I got considerably less mpg with this superior diesel than my Asda diesel. OK, so it's had it's treat and hopefully I'll get back to the mpg I got before.

my mileage droped with super fuel as well

That is interesting, economy usually improves a little when using a super fuel but there are many variables.
 

Charlie

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Diesel is made to a standard. If you pay more you might feel good but what is the real difference. In Germany yesterday I saw normal 1.13e super 1.26e and something called Race diesel 1.54e.

I don't think a delivery van engine need premium fuel.


The problem is is that the "standard " is very low. Modern engines with DPFs run better with quality fuel simple as that. I used to do 50K miles a year and tested MPGs exhaustively and IMHO the bit extra we pay at the pump is returned in MPG. Plus and this is the big issue your DPF will stay clean.

Its a well respected fact that "standard" diesel will eventually bugger DPFs... Modern fuel must by regulation contain 5% Bio fuel which is rubbish. Those that set emissions targets care not a jot about your engines or DPF units .

Its all well and good folk saying Ive run for years on cheap supermarket fuel but remember late engines with common rail technology and DPF filters don't like it !

I actuallly use branded fuel like Shell and add Millers Diesel treatment. It works out cheaper than Shell V power ot BP Ultimate and good MPGs are returned and the DPF is better for it ...
 
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Well all this talk of 30mpg from fiat 2.3 150 engines is confusing as we have had that very same engine in first an Auto trail and now Hymer Exsis I always fill to brim and note mileage never rely on instruments and on both got an average of around 25mpg I stick to around 50-55mph. Which by the way I think is pretty good. I'd really like to know how to get 30 mpg?:D:D:D

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EX51SSS

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Well all this talk of 30mpg from fiat 2.3 150 engines is confusing as we have had that very same engine in first an Auto trail and now Hymer Exsis I always fill to brim and note mileage never rely on instruments and on both got an average of around 25mpg I stick to around 50-55mph. Which by the way I think is pretty good. I'd really like to know how to get 30 mpg?:D:D:D
All I can say is that I drive at around the same speed, 50/55, usually at 52, best mileage gained at night in this country but in rural France at most times. Cruise control and I'd be absolutely horrified if I got a figure like 30mpg. However, I think the aerodynamic shape of the Exsis helps. It's the SG/SK models.
 

EX51SSS

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The problem is is that the "standard " is very low. Modern engines with DPFs run better with quality fuel simple as that. I used to do 50K miles a year and tested MPGs exhaustively and IMHO the bit extra we pay at the pump is returned in MPG. Plus and this is the big issue your DPF will stay clean.

Its a well respected fact that "standard" diesel will eventually bugger DPFs... Modern fuel must by regulation contain 5% Bio fuel which is rubbish. Those that set emissions targets care not a jot about your engines or DPF units .

Its all well and good folk saying Ive run for years on cheap supermarket fuel but remember late engines with common rail technology and DPF filters don't like it !

I actuallly use branded fuel like Shell and add Millers Diesel treatment. It works out cheaper than Shell V power ot BP Ultimate and good MPGs are returned and the DPF is better for it ...
Must be me but what is/was/or has been a DPF?

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EX51SSS

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150bhp but with an auto box.
I log our consumption on a phone app and from new we have done just under 16k miles @ 25.81mpg.
I think the mpg is improving slightly as the engine loosens up but I can't get near your 30mpg for very long. :(
Mind you, I'm not known for being a 'dawdler'. I'm usually pretty close to the speed limits and if you stick closely to the 80kph limit on single carriageway roads in France (4500kg) you will soon get an irate HGV driver right up your chuff. ;)

Richard.

Well all this talk of 30mpg from fiat 2.3 150 engines is confusing as we have had that very same engine in first an Auto trail and now Hymer Exsis I always fill to brim and note mileage never rely on instruments and on both got an average of around 25mpg I stick to around 50-55mph. Which by the way I think is pretty good. I'd really like to know how to get 30 mpg?:D:D:D
They may have the same engine but also depends on gearbox and weight of vehicle. A sub 3.5 tonnes and manual gearbox will do better than a +4 tonnes with an automatic transmission.
 

EX51SSS

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Diesel particulate filter
OK and is that a system or a type of filter within or around the engine? I'm not mechanically minded and not taking the Michael.

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Jul 29, 2013
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They may have the same engine but also depends on gearbox and weight of vehicle. A sub 3.5 tonnes and manual gearbox will do better than a +4 tonnes with an automatic transmission.
Yes I agree my Autotrail was 3850kg and Exsis i698 4250kg both manual gearbox interestingly the Exis will tow our car trailer and makes very little difference to consumption. Must be my driving:whistle: (y)(y)(y)
 
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Robert Clark

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They may have the same engine but also depends on gearbox and weight of vehicle. A sub 3.5 tonnes and manual gearbox will do better than a +4 tonnes with an automatic transmission.
@Clarky and I have the same van
Only difference appears to be auto versus manual box
Both vans are 4.2 tons (I believe)
 

DBK

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OK and is that a system or a type of filter within or around the engine? I'm not mechanically minded and not taking the Michael.
It's a filter in the exhaust system to catch soot for want of a better term. The vehicle has ways of periodically cleaning it by raising the temperature in the exhaust. They can get blocked.

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Charlie

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Must be me but what is/was/or has been a DPF?

Diesel Particulate Filter.

Most but not all modern vehicles have them. The later the vehicle the greater the chance of one being on the engine.

If these block and they do then the cost is huge. They do have regeneration processes where the filter heats up burning the deposits it has retained. But still the filters are prone to blocking . Cheap fuel does not have the cleaning ingredients so the likely hood of problems are greater.
 
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@Clarky and I have the same van
Only difference appears to be auto versus manual box
Both vans are 4.2 tons (I believe)
Mine is uprated to 4.5 tons but that is only a paper exercise and allows me to load extra wine and beer on the way home from France. :D(y)
Other than that and the auto box almost identical vans.

Richard.
 

DuxDeluxe

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Diesel Particulate Filter.

Most but not all modern vehicles have them. The later the vehicle the greater the chance of one being on the engine.

If these block and they do then the cost is huge. They do have regeneration processes where the filter heats up burning the deposits it has retained. But still the filters are prone to blocking . Cheap fuel does not have the cleaning ingredients so the likely hood of problems are greater.
I would beg to slightly differ there...... Both engine manufacturers and fuel companies spend millions every year on research (I know, we used to do the testing...) so that vehicles on the one hand can run for many tens of thousands of miles without problems and the fuel on the other hand does not cause any issues, whilst meeting the (in this case EN 590 spec.). All fuel has to meet EN590 spec in Europe wherever it is sold and this fuel is designed to operate problem free. Of course the issues start where engines do not have time to warm up properly or the DPF does not get the chance to go through its regeneration cycle. Nissan cars, for example, advise buyers not to buy a diesel if it is to be used for pootling around - precisely to avoid this problem with DPFs.

Certainly the Superfuels do have detergents in them but the point is that research by the fuel companies and engine manufacturers have shown that apart from a minimum amount of additives at ppm levels, they aren't normally necessary. Neither fuel companies not engine manufacturers want to be blamed/claimed for frequent DPF blockage or indeed other failures so believe me, they make sure of it. It is the useage, not the fuel that usually results in most DPF blockages and failures. Superfuels should not be necessary, but certainly the extra detergents and other additives, plus also the slightly different component blend are beneficial to the diesel or gasoline motor.

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EX51SSS

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Yes I agree my Autotrail was 3850kg and Exsis i698 4250kg both manual gearbox interestingly the Exis will tow our car trailer and makes very little difference to consumption. Must be my driving:whistle: (y)(y)(y)
Hi Speve and mine is not an Exsis i. It's the Exsis SK which is sub 3.5 tonnes. The Exsis i and Exsis t and newer models.
 

Charlie

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I would beg to slightly differ there...... Both engine manufacturers and fuel companies spend millions every year on research (I know, we used to do the testing...) so that vehicles on the one hand can run for many tens of thousands of miles without problems and the fuel on the other hand does not cause any issues, whilst meeting the (in this case EN 590 spec.). All fuel has to meet EN590 spec in Europe wherever it is sold and this fuel is designed to operate problem free. Of course the issues start where engines do not have time to warm up properly or the DPF does not get the chance to go through its regeneration cycle. Nissan cars, for example, advise buyers not to buy a diesel if it is to be used for pootling around - precisely to avoid this problem with DPFs.

Certainly the Superfuels do have detergents in them but the point is that research by the fuel companies and engine manufacturers have shown that apart from a minimum amount of additives at ppm levels, they aren't normally necessary. Neither fuel companies not engine manufacturers want to be blamed/claimed for frequent DPF blockage or indeed other failures so believe me, they make sure of it. It is the useage, not the fuel that usually results in most DPF blockages and failures. Superfuels should not be necessary, but certainly the extra detergents and other additives, plus also the slightly different component blend are beneficial to the diesel or gasoline motor.


Mmmm.... I actually don't think we are differing much if at all......

My point is that even though fuel must meet a standard that standard is not high enough. 5% Bio means rubbish fuel or at least fuel that can and does contaminate DPFs.....

If the fuel standard was higher the low users of diesel cars would have far less problems. Many know that owning a diesel and doing short trips is not a good idea and for those users I would say its imperative to use top quality fuel or a good additive. For the rest of us its advisable.

Many manufacturers struggle in producing diesel engines that meet legislation using what is low quality fuel. Google .......... Charliefarlies guide to the 2AD engine and its issues ........ And you will see exactly where Im coming from. I wrote that guide by the way.

Honestly I would not dream of using standard low quality diesel in any of our cars. Never in million years ...

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Scattycat

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Diesel is made to a standard. If you pay more you might feel good but what is the real difference. In Germany yesterday I saw normal 1.13e super 1.26e and something called Race diesel 1.54e.

I don't think a delivery van engine need premium fuel.

A friend of mine used to work in fuel testing and he has assured me that there is a vast difference in fuel quality.
Premium fuels from companies like Total and BP have additives that help to keep the engine cleaner and, in general, will give you a better fuel consumption
 

DuxDeluxe

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Mmmm.... I actually don't think we are differing much if at all......

My point is that even though fuel must meet a standard that standard is not high enough. 5% Bio means rubbish fuel or at least fuel that can and does contaminate DPFs.....

If the fuel standard was higher the low users of diesel cars would have far less problems. Many know that owning a diesel and doing short trips is not a good idea and for those users I would say its imperative to use top quality fuel or a good additive. For the rest of us its advisable.

Many manufacturers struggle in producing diesel engines that meet legislation using what is low quality fuel. Google .......... Charliefarlies guide to the 2AD engine and its issues ........ And you will see exactly where Im coming from. I wrote that guide by the way.

Honestly I would not dream of using standard low quality diesel in any of our cars. Never in million years ...
Ok, but the standards are written based upon considerable input from manufacturers, refiners, distributers and representatives of end users and take years to develop. I know, having sat on one such committee and they are genuinely well thought through. The problem is designing an engine for say African or Indian diesel as examples, which really are low quality, rather than the European/First World market where fuel standards are quite high. We used to test real pump samples from all over the world for the manufacturers. This incidentally is why remapping works; the engine is tuned for the lowest common denominator on the production line simply as it is cheaper to do it that way.

You are actually in error on the FAME content - it is 7% not 5% (you may have been thinking of an earlier specification - see next sentence) but it is not mandated; it is a maximum level permitted with no minimum. In fact the typical bio content is lower as it is quite frankly expensive stuff which cannot be sourced locally and is not environmentally friendly (if you see the rain forests cut down to make way for palm oil plantations). The result is a compromise between the excellent lubrication properties of FAME and the consequent lack of need to add lubricity improver, together with the acknowledged lousy cold properties of FAME (I used to keep a sample in the fridge at work to show people).

Having said that, the DPF issues can be traced to FAME at least as one of the culprits, which is why it is essential to make sure that the DPF can go through its regeneration cycle. This is pretty easy in a motorhome as a lot of journeys involve extended runs to and from places. Hard in Mrs Deluxe's diesel fiesta which is used for Tootling around town - so we make sure that it is used for longer runs every 6 weeks ago. DPF can be cleaned, but garages find it easier to replace and charge accordingly.

Below you will find a really excellent (if somewhat technical) presentation from Seppo Mikkonen of Neste Oil who is an acknowledged expert - his presentation confirms a lot of what you say (y)
 

jonandshell

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FAME!!!!!!
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REMEMBER REMEMBER REMEMBER
Remember my name.

What's the New York Academy of Performing Arts got to with diesel?:)

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Ivory55

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A friend of mine used to work in fuel testing and he has assured me that there is a vast difference in fuel quality.
Premium fuels from companies like Total and BP have additives that help to keep the engine cleaner and, in general, will give you a better fuel consumption
I agree quality does vary. Some of that red diesil I pinch from building sites or farms makes my van smoke like a train!
 

DuxDeluxe

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A friend of mine used to work in fuel testing and he has assured me that there is a vast difference in fuel quality.
Premium fuels from companies like Total and BP have additives that help to keep the engine cleaner and, in general, will give you a better fuel consumption
There is a small difference in fuel quality, not a vast difference. The additives in branded fuel may or may not be different additives but all are in minute ppm quantities. The big difference is in the Ultimates, Vpowers, excelliums of this world which vastly exceed the required spec and do have significant amounts of cetane/octane improves and well as detergents.
 

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