Caravanner planning to convert - how much does size matter?

[Sibsbibs]

Dear all,

We're planning to trade in the caravan for a motorhome now that the kiddies are older. The main advantages as I see it are that it's much easier to get ready for quick getaways, touring is easier and we're more likely to use it in winter. I've been following advice that suggests it's best to get the smallest MH we can bear to live in and we'll aim to hire something as close as possible to what we might buy, but may well not be identical. Anyway, I'm after advice, especially from any ex-caravanners who have lived through the transition having learnt a thing or two.

Our budget is up to 30k for a second hand MH, but there is flex - just don't want to spend more than that first time round, if possible.

Here's where my thinking is now:

1. Favouring a Luton style for the handy bed cum storage area over the cab
2. I'd like the space of a six berth with end lounge reminiscent of the lounging glory we have in the caravan, but these vans are very long and can't help thinking that's got to limit versatility when it comes to going places and finding somewhere to park. I'm fine with the driving, having towed for years - but arriving somewhere and not being able to park seems problematic when the point of the change is greater flexibility of use.
3. I'm therefore looking at four/five berths with a long side settee facing a dinette, with kitchen/bathroom in rear. Here's where the peculiarities of our family come in:

• my 16 year old daughter has high functioning autism and likes her own space sometimes, so I'm ideally looking for a Luton high enough that she can sit up in, with her laptop on her lap, while we watch tv etc in main lounge. Fortunately we're all absurdly short and we did see one such Luton on a visit to a nearby dealer, but not in the right layout.
• When travelling, she also objects to sitting right next to her 19 year older brother (yes, we can't rely on him not wanting to free-load holidays from us forever, even though he's now at university). So we're looking at a dinette that must have seat belts both sides so that they can sit opposite each other.

1. I've also seen some very compact 4 berths where there's a travel seat either side of a central aisle (so no cheek-by-jowel travelling to please my daughter) that convert to settees when not traveling. I really like the idea of these as we then get a really good lounging area and, although we like to be very active during the day, we love to slob in the evening in front of the tv, when optimum lounging/viewing facilities are high on my list of priorities.
2. But here's where I find it hard to tell which compromise will be most palatable - the lack of cupboards/storage/ separate sitting areas that inevitably accompanies a smaller van versus the limitations associated with a longer van when it comes to nipping into town for a curry/supermarket shop or accessing a parking space on a day out. This leads us to other thoughts:

• would one of those large storage boxes on the back of a smaller van be a good solution for longer getaway storage issues? I'd want to take bikes too - am I being optimistic about how much we could lash on the back/roof...?
• Conversely, for U.K. Holidays, it's not a ridiculous proposition that we'd take a car too and drive in convoy, so a bigger MH could happily be left on site. Or have people done this and found it more of a chore than they expected?
• For European holidays, it sounds like there's a world of opportunity not open to caravanners that I don't really know about - any advice on how far a longer van is less problematic when going places abroad, because of this? There's much talk of Aires and other MH facilities abounding abroad - this is all uncharted territory for us caravanners.

1. Type of holidays/breaks we favour: we go to the Lakes and Snowdonia a lot for the walking. Also like the Peaks, coast and would probably do more city breaks than we do now. As for Europe, we're likely to go anywhere/everywhere - outdoor activities, walking, cycling, kayaking - that sort of thing, seeing nature/wildlife hotspots and pandering to kiddie whims which revolve around roller coasters, trains/heritage railways and wildlife parks. We're likely to stay on campsites for the most part because my daughter doesn't like to be parted from reliable wifi. But like the idea of more flexibility of other stopover options en route to places - she can make do without wifi for a night or two...
2. I suppose the fundamental question: for the type of thing we want to do and the type of family we have (accepting we might eventually get the MH to ourselves most of the time), do you think we're better off with a MH in the 6m-6.5m range with associated space problems; or something in the 7-7.5m range with associated manoevrability problems? I'm just not sure if that extra meter or so makes a big difference to usability/manoevrability.
3. Finally, I've also noticed payloads quoted are wildly fluctuating but the larger the MH, the smaller the payload seems to be, at times. Why is that? Is it because larger MHs are on the same chassis, so part of your payload has been gobbled up by MH weight? And do people really insist on taking a MH to a local weighbridge before buying to check this out, as recommended in the buying guide I've purchased? I'm just wondering what kind of reaction I might get to such a suggestion from a dealer/private seller (as for the latter, I'd only buy with an indie vehicle/hab check anyway - as we've done in the past with caravans)?

All help, thoughts, ruminations, experiences of solving similar dilemmas are hugely welcome. Thanks very much

 

[MikeD]

I can help with your questions but Welcome to the Motorhomefun.

The one thing I would say though is watch out for the payload on the motorhome you are looking to buy. Some 7mtr and have less than 400kg spare.

Time the wife and kids get in it will not leave you much left to put in the storage areas.

 

[Sibsbibs]

Thanks very much Mike - that's what's been bothering me in part - what's the point of having loads of cupboards if I haven't got the payload to fill them up anyway...? Which makes me wonder if the shorter options are preferable in any event...?

 

[Lenny HB]

I wouldn't be too keen on an over cab van they roll more on corners, higher wind resistance just not as pleasant to drive, only advantage is more living space for the length.

Have you considered A Class vans, most have a drop down front bed and your daughter could use the rear bed area when needed.

I would be inclined to go for a van with a max length of 7.5m but with 2 teenagers you are going to need at least a 1000 kg payload which will limit your choice. you need to be looking at vans of 4250kg and above.
The Payload is the differance betweem MAM (gross weight) & MIRO (mass in running order) MIRO is normally defined to include a driver at 75kg, 90% fuel, 20 Lt water & 1 x 11 kg aluminium gas bottle but not all manufacturers stick to this. You need to reduce the payload by the weight of any manufacture, dealer & user fitted extras e.g. awning 40 kg, 2nd battery 30 kg. Payload soon gets eaten up, we always travel with a full tank of water (don't do sites) that takes up another 140 kg.

The wifi is the least of your worries campsite wifi is normal sh*t anyway, far better to tether your phone or get a MiFi, data costs are so cheap now.

Europe is paradise for Motorhomes so much easier and if you use Aires most are in walking distance of towns & villages if not in the centre.

Don't trust what dealers tell you about payload most of them don't know what the word means.

 

[DJA]

Hi

Hope you don't mind me saying but not being aware of your age have you got the C1 category on you licence. If not you will need to take a test for over 3.5t. Our son is 38, a driving instructor and bus driver and he cannot drive over 3.5t without taking a test. He could also not drive our 3.5t MH towing a car as the max trailer inc load is 750kg.

Doug

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[Lenny HB]

Our son is 38, a driving instructor and bus driver and he cannot drive over 3.5t without taking a test.

It's a ridiculous state of affairs, our SIL used to do some voluntary D of E work with kids, the council put him through the Minibus test. He can drive a 16 seater 4 ton minibus full of kids but can't drive our Motorhome.

 

[Sibsbibs]

Thanks very much Doug and Lennie - I'd like to pretend otherwise, but hubby and I are well old enough to have passed our tests before the Battle of Hastings (pre 1997) so assume we won't suffer from newer restrictions.

Yes, we have looked at A classes, but unless we get a behemoth, the drop down bed still seems to compromise the front cab seats which seems inconvenient on the ones we've looked at as the lounge areas haven't been too big anyway - swivellingnthe front seats seemed the only way to get true feet up capability for all four of us (not that my evenings always revolve around full length horizontal tv slob outs - oh who am I kidding - of course they do).

I've read about the Luton affecting handling, but do they really, that much? A classes look like huge buses - don't similar issues arise whatever the shape, once they're over a certain size? I'm also comparing to towing, which isn't exactly nippy...

 

[Lenny HB]

A classes look like huge buses

No, they look like proper Motorhomes rather than a caravan bolted onto a cab.
Once you get used to the space around you they are easier to drive, flat sides and mirrors closer to the body make reversing & getting through tight spaces easier.
Also quieter as the cab area is fully insulated & warmer.

 

[Sibsbibs]

Sorry Lenny - also meant to ask: what kind of wifi alternatives do you favour? I know what you mean about campsite wifi - we tend to stay at club sites for week+ holidays and their pay options are good, but hit and miss elsewhere.

I haven't seen any MHs with 1000kg payloads in the sizes I've been looking at - am I not trying hard enough or is online info unreliable (I have seen the same van with lengths quoted as anything from 6.5 to 7.5 meters long - they can't all be true, so maybe the same for payloads?)

 

[Sibsbibs]

No, they look like proper Motorhomes rather than a caravan bolted onto a cab.
Once you get used to the space around you they are easier to drive, flat sides and mirrors closer to the body make reversing & getting through tight spaces easier.
Also quieter as the cab area is fully insulated & warmer.

Now I

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[Lenny HB]

We are ex tuggers and we hired a couple of times before buying even though we thought we knew what we wanted. Found out we couldn't live with a transverse rear bed.

A lot of tuggers make the mistake of trying to replicate their caravan style of use, a Motorhome is a different beast and need treating as such.

 

[Lenny HB]

Now I

??

 

[thebriars]

Yesterday we got our money back after a 5 month fight with the cowboy dealer after rejecting a new Elddis caravan as not fit for purpose. We are fed up of crappy British caravans (we have had 4 new ones and all have needed a major repair in their first year). However, we don't want to give up the life so have ordered a motorhome. We've had plenty of time to look around in the intervening 5 months. Over the last 10 years we have hired a variety of motorhomes in the US, Canada and new Zealand, so have a pretty good idea what to look for.

Basically there are a number of differences, of which you seem to be aware:
With a caravan you go to stay and pitch for several days at least, using the car to go out and explore. We have always tended to drive to the destination directly only stopping for meals. With a MH the journey itself can be an exploration, especially if you plan things to do or see on the way. Maybe set off early, park somewhere and have the day walking and then arrive in the early evening.

Obviously travel can be faster. If the motorhome can be driven on an ordinary licence (i.e. under 3500kg), then you follow car speed limits and can use the outside lane of a motorway. While its not quite this simple in terms of weights, a lighter MH is certainly a consideration. I assume if you've been towing for many years you already have a C1 licence.

You are not limited to just campsites.

We looked at the smallest MH and found them too limiting, and have gone for a 7m coachbuilt van. This gives us a large lounge with a fixed bed over as it is a drop-down bed. We've also gone for a MH that is not made to dreadful UK caravan standards. Weight allowance is clearly an issue, but we always travel light anyway, and with neither of us wishing to go through the rigmarole of medicals every 3 years now we are over 70, the under 3500kg limit is fine for us. We are also looking at electric cycles to give us some mobility when on site.

My suggestion would be to go, as we did, to a national motorhome exhibition and look at what is available out there and what would suit your specific needs. Then start hunting for a suitable 2nd hand van.

 

[Sibsbibs]

No, they look like proper Motorhomes rather than a caravan bolted onto a cab.
Once you get used to the space around you they are easier to drive, flat sides and mirrors closer to the body make reversing & getting through tight spaces easier.
Also quieter as the cab area is fully insulated & warmer.

Yes, Lenny, I don't know how to nest a quote and comment... oops. I was going to type - I like the idea of something quieter and also intrigued by what you say about wanting to replicate caravan experiences, which is true to an extent in that I want good lounging space and a decent-ish kitchen. But would love to here more about what you've found the main differences (and advantages) to be when converting. I'm conscious there's stuff that simply won't have occurred to us.

 

[Lenny HB]

Main difference for us is we don't bother with UK much anymore too Motorhome unfriendly, it helps living 20 miles from a channel port.

Generally hardly ever use sites and tend to do mainly one night & two night stops, we get to see a lot more but do far less miles.
I wouldn't worry about the kitchen you soon adapt your style of cooking.
As for lounging if you have decent captain chairs in the cab they are the most comfortable seats in the house.

This is the layout of our 7.5m van

This was our last trip we got back a couple of weeks ago. It will give you some idea of our style of use if interested several of my other trips are on here.

Quotes:
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[Hettie's Crew]

A lot of tuggers make the mistake of trying to replicate their caravan style of use,

We made exactly this error going from a rear French bed layout caravan (Bailey Pegasus) to the same in a motorhome (Bessacarr E450)
Three years of storage/payload/lounging comfort and poor heating problems almost made us give up, then we bought our B544 and can’t imagine ever changing.

 

[Pekepal]

Main difference for us is we don't bother with UK much anymore too Motorhome unfriendly, it helps living 20 miles from a channel port.

Generally hardly ever use sites and tend to do mainly one night & two night stops, we get to see a lot more but do far less miles.
I wouldn't worry about the kitchen you soon adapt your style of cooking.
As for lounging if you have decent captain chairs in the cab they are the most comfortable seats in the house.

This is the layout of our 7.5m van

View attachment 268769

This was our last trip we got back a couple of weeks ago. It will give you some idea of our style of use if interested several of my other trips are on here.

Quotes:
If you don't want to quote the whole post, just highlight the the text with your coursor and a box will appear bottom right with a choice of Multi-quote or Quote.

I agree with everything above. As ex-caravanners we took a long time researching a suitable layout and went for one very similar to the above. Needless to say we only found this on a continental van. Our main criteria was a garage to store bikes (small electric fold ups essential!) and everything else.

After 3 years and 20,000 miles we are gradually throwing out all the items we considered essential with caravanning as it is a really different form of travelling. The comment with regard to the kitchen area is particularly relevant. I always insisted on an oven in caravan but now no longer need one as microwave electric griddle, cheap suitcase gas ring and remoska fulfill all my requirements.

Love it all and wish you well in your search. How exciting!

 

[Sibsbibs]

Hettie - is that a Hymer B455? Looks like the kind of layout and length we've been looking at, except in A class form. How do you find space/storage/lounging compares to your old caravan days?

Thanks also Pekepal for the kitchen thoughts - I have wondered if hob and micro would be enough, and forego oven for more cupboard space.

And thanks again Lenny for the MH life insights - I doubt we'll get a proper appreciation of all the benefits till we're behind the wheel, but it certainly gives us a feel.

So does anyone favour a Luton? I only ask because there seem to be more around in the layout options we're looking at, in our price range.

 

[pandas]

If you are referring to Hettie's B544 it is 6.4m long and with one double drop down bed although allegedly a third bed that slides out but you then cannot access the ladder to get out of the double bed. A brilliant layout for 2, the very best circulation space and we really loved ours but not suitable for more than 2. Also compromise on storage space although again we managed it well. Need to uprate to 4.250 though with all the toys. Think there is a model that has an electronic double bed that drops down over the seating area but can stop part way down to provide another double bed underneath. Haven't seen one but a discerning mate of mine raves about it. Lutons are the most available second hand as I think styles have moved on as I believe they have the issues as described and you cannot sit up in bed over the cab. Agree Lenny is certainly one of the more 'informed' forum posters to follow and very much appreciated. The layout of his (and ours) would be appropriate but maybe the seating area would not provide you with as much 'own space' you mentioned but a retreat to the fixed bed at the back would.

 

[funflair]

smallest MH we can bear to live in

I started to worry when I read this bit, in my view you want to be happy living in in not just "bear to live in"

You have obviously given a lot of thought to how the van would work for your family, yes an A class is great but not for everybody so keep your own needs in mind, 7-7.5 metres range as I dont really think that you will find that many problems manoeuvring it, typed as I sit in a 8.5 metre van and trying to imagine loosing 2 metres

Martin

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[Southdowners]

You’ve obviously thought through your needs carefully and that’s a good starting point.

My advice would be to go to a large dealership or motorhome show. You’ll quickly see what would work for your family.

I wouldn’t let size bother you. You’re obviously used to towing a long vehicle - driving a motorhome will be much easier. We’ve got a fairly large vehicle and haven’t found it a problem. If coaches and lorries can go down the road you wish to travel on, then so can you.

Getting the right layout is key to buying the right motorhome... lots of people change their vehicles quickly because the layout is wrong. Another key issue is payload. Make sure you have adequate garage space and are able to put a bike rack on the back.

It’s worth keeping an eye on this forum as there have been some great vehicles advertised for sale here.

Happy hunting!

 

[Pekepal]

Just remembered another way of increasing relaxation space! Our van is 7 metres with usual lounge which I find uncomfortable to sit in to watch TV for long periods on long dark evenings. Our solution as we have Two single beds at rear is to put another tv on wall at foot of bed and stretch out in evening,or even afternoons if raining!. Bliss. We say we are "going up on the shelf"

 

[Hettie's Crew]

How do you find space/storage/lounging compares to your old caravan days?

It is the B544, though I don’t think it would suit your needs wanting a separate sleeping area. Regarding storage, you have to think back to how much you used to put in the car. We do great with storage now, never filling all the available space and managing to bring home plenty of wine.
The drop down bed is excellent and we both prefer it to our bed at home, extremely comfortable, very easy to get in and out of without the need of a ladder. It’s the drop down bed that gives us the extra daytime space and lounge size and it takes seconds to put up or down.
The main thing we disliked about our previous Motorhome was the need to be moving stuff around all the time, depending on if you were travelling, lounging, sleeping or cooking.

 

[Sibsbibs]

Thanks so much everyone - it's given us a lot to think about and we'll definitely go to the NEC show in Feb. Now having just looked at Lenny's Portugal thread and studied with interest the videos of navigating tight spots, I guess these sum up our concerns with getting a larger MH. As you say, if a bus can get down a road, so can we - but how far would a 7-7.5 meter van (compared to, say, 5.5-6.5m) result in us giving up on many more parking spaces or increase the number of times we indulge in buttock-clenching reversing festivals?

For me (accepting Lutons don't seem to have a following - but remember we are midgets - my daughter has happily sat up in one of the more bulbous ones - tallest family member is 5'8"...), here's the type of length range and layouts I'm looking at:

1. Short but with good lounge and good travel seat arrangement:



2. Longer, but someone in dinette has back to tv (I know - it shouldn't matter so much, but it does):



3. Longer again - bound to please everyone but two meters longer than first van and I'm thinking about that trip to a small car park to start a walk, pick up a takeaway, beetle through country lanes...



So I guess the issue is - knowing what you know from your experiences and the type of holiday we have, will the small space end up being more or less annoying and regret-inducing than the problems I'm imagining accompany that extra two metres?

I know only we can decide, but would really value your thoughts as ex-caravanners who know where we're coming from.

Thanks again

 

[thebriars]

I have to say, after the shocking build of our 2018 Elddis caravan, its one make I would never touch again. (When cupboards start falling of the wall, a large plywood surround falls off the ceiling and the roof starts to collapses in, together with several other build problems its one to avoid).

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[Riverbankannie]

Just one thought on the travelling seats for your children. For the times when your son is with you (which as you say will be diminishing), could your daughter travel in the passenger cab seat?
This would remove one of your layout limitations.
Don’t worry too much about length, you sound as if you need a larger MH. There’s not much difference between finding somewhere to park with a 7m or an 8m.
In the U.K. going to be easiest to stay on campsites or the main clubs small camping locations, in Europe aires are large enough for the larger MHs.

 

[SpeedyDux]

The minimum amount of interior space you would find acceptable is a very personal decision. Having traded up from a VW camper with pop top roof to a medium wheelbase PVC, what seems to us to be a somewhat cosy but functional living area I can imagine would seem very cramped for ex-caravanners used to ample lounging space.

There are narrow country lanes with branches sticking out where delivery drivers drive 7.5 tonners and bin lorries will go but I wouldn't risk it. Again, a personal preference.

 

[TerryL]

There are one or two "double lounge" layouts, that is, they have the big rear lounge you're looking for plus a small half (or maybe full) dinette at the front. They do tend to be longer but once you get over 6m it's immaterial anyway, you're going to need more than one parking bay in most towns etc! I'm not keen on over-cabs to be honest but I'm sure I've seen one with the double lounge layout somewhere, might have been an Autotrail. Just an idea.

Moving from a caravan is probably not as easy as going straight to a m/h as despite your intentions you're ingrained with caravan ideas. A couple of hires is a very good idea.

 

[scotjimland]

I wouldn’t let size bother you. You’re obviously used to towing a long vehicle - driving a motorhome will be much easier. We’ve got a fairly large vehicle and haven’t found it a problem. If coaches and lorries can go down the road you wish to travel on, then so can you.

yes indeed... with the proviso, you don't care about having your van windows and panels scratched by trees and hedges, or having to ride up on a verge to get past an oncoming tractor or care about having a door mirror ripped off by the white van man. We live in such a place and every trip the first 8 miles are nerve wracking, same coming home.

Coach and lorry drivers don't pay for repairs..

When it comes to driving and accessing places, length is of little consequence, it's the width that matters. In my experience, a car and caravan are often easier to manoeuvre in tight places than a large motorhome.

We're planning to trade in the caravan for a motorhome now that the kiddies are older.

we have gone the other way.. now older we have decided to do less touring abroad, and have more holidays in the UK, staying on sites and having days out in the car and cycling.. so a caravan makes more sense... paying for pitch may as well have a caravan.

Campervan , ideal for touring abroad, moving every other day and using aires.. what we did for many many years.

Caravan ideal for holidays staying in one location for several days and having a car for day trips.

Consider it carefully , there are pros and cons for both..

 

[Lenny HB]

We went from 6.8m to a 7.2m and now a 7.5m van not noticed the difference. The last two vans have been narrower at 2.21 m which does make it a bit easier in tight places.
The smaller vans you are looking at are far to small for 2 adults & 2 teenagers.
Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near a Brit built van. Only ever bought German vans (Hymer's) not the best just a mid range van but OK. Far better to buy an old German van than a newer Brit van for the same money. We have saved loads importing ourselves even imported our last caravan.

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