Car insurance towing with A frame

[ALI G]

We are due to have an A frame fitted to our car by Armitage in a couple of weeks time so thought I'd let SAGA know about it only to be told they will not cover it. Anyone else had problems?

 

[David and Sally]

I checked with our tow car insurer and advised them we were fitting an a frame and they noted it but we’re not worried.

 

[ALI G]

I checked with our tow car insurer and advised them we were fitting an a frame and they noted it but we’re not worried.

Can ask who are you insured with please?

 

[eddie]

We are due to have an A frame fitted to our car by Armitage in a couple of weeks time so thought I'd let SAGA know about it only to be told they will not cover it. Anyone else had problems?

Probably because its illegal?

 

[Larrynwin]

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[pappajohn]

NFU.......
I had both insured with them and no problem towing.
They include 3rd party risk AND £1000 for loss or damage to the 'trailer' in the tow vehicles insurance.
The £1000 doesn't apply to livestock trailers or caravans.

I doubt anyone will insure the toad in its own right when being towed.

 

[DJA]

Hi ALI G

If Saga are your Motorhome insurance then not surprised. When we had a Toad the Motorhome and Toad were on different insurers. The Toad was with National Farmer Union. When we fitted the Towing equipment to the vehicle we notified NFU and they confirmed that it would still be fully Comprehensively Insured when being towed whereas some Insurers only cover for 3rd Party when being Towed. We notified the Motorhome Insurer we had a Towbar and would be towing a Toad they advised there was no issue on that account.

 

[David and Sally]

Can ask who are you insured with please?

Tow car is Provident.

 

[David and Sally]

Probably because its illegal?

Go again on that eddievanbitz.

Illegal?

 

[pappajohn]

Probably because its illegal?

It isn't illegal Eddie, neither is it legal.
Only a court can decide that.

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[eddie]

Well as I am asked, its illegal to modify the construction of a car, unless a new certificate of conformity is obtained for a start!

 

[David and Sally]

Well as I am asked, its illegal to modify the construction of a car, unless a new certificate of conformity is obtained for a start!

So a tow bar is illegal? An A frame is basically a tow bar but on the front rather than the rear.
Accepted that towbars need to be type approved.

 

[eddie]

So a tow bar is illegal? An A frame is basically a tow bar but on the front rather than the rear.
Accepted that towbars need to be type approved.

Ah but nothing on a tow bar impacts (see what I did there?) on crash testing, pedestrian impact "crush zoning" or crumple zone conformity

But yes, a tow bar is on the list of "notifiable" changes and fitting one requires advising your insurers that a modification has taken place.

 

[David and Sally]

So, it really needs a test case to clarify.

 

[eddie]

So, it really needs a test case to clarify.

You could argue that someone could end up with a manslaughter case against them as a worst case scenario.

Certainly modifying a car to do something it was never designed or manufactured to do would be hard to defend in the case of say a third party fatality in the eyes of a non motor homing Judge and Jury!

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[eddie]

I have multi vehicle cover and when my Terios is being towed behind my camper the are both insured the same as if the were being driven sepatately

Once of the reasons that we ordered a little Daihatsu Terios was that there is a section in the owners handbook telling you "What to do when using the car as a TOAD" Apparently is a very popular TOAD in the States and Daihatsu have picked up on this.

I got the dealership to get a letter out of Daihatsu stating that towing the car behind a camper wouldn't invalidate the warranty in anyway.

So at least if I am the unlucky sod that is the test case, and something serious or horrid has happened I have at least this information from the car manufacturer to fall back on, if they decide to make an example of me legally!

 

[Pausim]

I have car and motorhome insured by NFU on the same policy. The motorhome carries the third party risks of the driver and hopefully as DJA says they would cover the comprehensive risk to the car as well. However I work on the basis that the car is possibly not fully covered and only tow one that would not be a financial disaster if it was a write off at my expense. If the car and motorhome are with different insurers I suspect both insurers would say claim from the other.

 

[eddie]

I am always wary as in 2018 I crashed, writing off a V8 Landcruiser and a 24' Zodiac RIB whilst in France.

The Zodiac was insured through a specialist insurer, and the Landcruiser through AVIA

It was a bloody nightmare to be honest, AVIA would repatriate the wreck and the trailer, but refused to re-patriate the boat. I was happy to leave the boat in France (it was buggered) but the boat insurers refused to pay to bring it back, or pay out till a loss adjuster has inspected the wreck, and they would only inspect the wreckage in the UK not France

AVIA were adamant that the trailer was covered under the car policy, but they considered the Zodiac a "Personal Possession"

It took some serious threats from the brokers that handle my business policies which are not only hefty premiums but are also with AVIA, for them to capitulate and allow the Zodiac to be brought back on the trailer, along with the Landcruiser on a low loader!

So my advice is, given that "A" frames are not either legal or illegal its important to make sure that the chosen insurers are clear that the car is to be towed regularly, not on a trailer, on an A frame.

If the insurer is unhappy upfront, you can be sure that eggs are eggs that they be really unhelpful in the event of a claim

 

[Geo]

I have multi vehicle cover and when my Terios is being towed behind my camper the are both insured the same as if the were being driven sepatately

Once of the reasons that we ordered a little Daihatsu Terios was that there is a section in the owners handbook telling you "What to do when using the car as a TOAD" Apparently is a very popular TOAD in the States and Daihatsu have picked up on this.

I got the dealership to get a letter out of Daihatsu stating that towing the car behind a camper wouldn't invalidate the warranty in anyway.

So at least if I am the unlucky sod that is the test case, and something serious or horrid has happened I have at least this information from the car manufacturer to fall back on, if they decide to make an example of me legally!

What A frame are you towing with Eddie?

 

[gus-lopez]

So a tow bar is illegal? An A frame is basically a tow bar but on the front rather than the rear.
Accepted that towbars need to be type approved.

No.The tow bar has to be homologated & fitted correctly.
The butchery to the front cross member of any vehicle to attach an A frame has no paperwork whatsoever leave alone a new Certificate of Conformity, which is legally what is necessary.

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[Emmit]

Try towing a 'Mechanically propelled vehicle' as a 'Toad' without Insurance behind a 'Mechanically propelled vehicle' and try arguing with a 'White Top' that it is a trailer.
Go further. Take the engine out of the Toad and see if the Cop accepts that it isn't a 'Mechanically propelled vehicle'

Either way, a fine and points on licence.

 

[Pausim]

Try towing a 'Mechanically propelled vehicle' as a 'Toad' without Insurance behind a 'Mechanically propelled vehicle' and try arguing with a 'White Top' that it is a trailer.
Go further. Take the engine out of the Toad and see if the Cop accepts that it isn't a 'Mechanically propelled vehicle'

Either way, a fine and points on licence.

I assume a ‘White Top’ is a non UK Cop of some type. In the UK Toads seem to be ignored by the Police. I have no intention of towing a Toad outside the UK.

 

[Cheshirecat57]

Well as I am asked, its illegal to modify the construction of a car, unless a new certificate of conformity is obtained for a start!

Er....no its not

 

[Emmit]

I assume a ‘White Top’ is a non UK Cop of some type. In the UK Toads seem to be ignored by the Police. I have no intention of towing a Toad outside the UK.

No. A White Top refers to a UK Traffic Patrol Policeman. Invariably their flat cap has a White Top.

 

[gus-lopez]

Er....no its not

Yes it is. As soon as modified the CoC becomes void and vehicle becomes illegal without a new CoC.
No different to modifying old vehicles where as soon as you modify any chassis part you cannot make the 8 points to retain a registration number and get a Q plate. And that I'd after a full SVA inspection.

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[Pausim]

No. A White Top refers to a UK Traffic Patrol Policeman. Invariably their flat cap has a White Top.

I would happily argue with a UK Policeman that whilst the DfT regard a Toad as a trailer, the third party risks are covered by the towing vehicle. Only third party insurance is a legal requirement. Until the DfT change their advice or the UK Police prosecute someone I will continue to be comfortable towing it in the UK.

 

[Realist]

Probably because its illegal?

Here we go, ding, ding.

 

[Emmit]

I would happily argue with a UK Policeman that whilst the DfT regard a Toad as a trailer, the third party risks are covered by the towing vehicle. Only third party insurance is a legal requirement. Until the DfT change their advice or the UK Police prosecute someone I will continue to be comfortable towing it in the UK.

You didn't read my post and absorb the contents.
Would you tow your Toad without it having Insurance of it's own. Not relying on the Third party Insurance afforded it by the towing vehicle, I repeat, would you then tow the Toad?

 

[Pausim]

You didn't read my post and absorb the contents.
Would you tow your Toad without it having Insurance of it's own. Not relying on the Third party Insurance afforded it by the towing vehicle, I repeat, would you then tow the Toad?

I believe I understood and absorbed your post perfectly well thank you. You also don’t need to add “I repeat” because I only need to answer your question once. My answer is yes. I am happy to rely on the third party insurance of the towing vehicle, that is all that is legally required. I have already said that I accept the financial risk of losing the towed car at #17.

 

[Emmit]

In that case, you will find yourself in contravention of the Road Traffic Act.

Whilst you may rely on the towing vehicle to provide Third Party Insurance for the towed vehicle, it requires Insurance in its own right because, regardless of how it is being described as a Trailer, it remains a Mechanically propelled vehicle and, as such requires Insurance in it's own right.

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