Can-bus demand

sallylillian

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At Stuttgart show yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a guy on the Phoenix stand. Firstly they use a 12v based compressor fridge that looks like a fridge and not a children's toy, I challenged him on the consumption and he said about 20 amps over a 24 hour period. Further he remarked, and this is the nub of the post, he said that Phoenix do not use a Can-bus system unlike most other modern MH manufacturers, N+B, Concorde, Morelo etc. and significantly he said these systems consume 1-2 amps. He therefore argued that the compressor fridge would use less than the Can-bus.
I would be interested in the vies of some of the technically astute in this area?
 

funflair

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Morning Michael

I don't know anything about the technicalities but there are many things about Phoenix that I like, one thing I don't understand though is that they put 2" steel box across the chassis before the body goes on so lifting everything even higher, even the garage if I remember correctly.

I spoke to a guy in Spain a couple of years ago with a English registered Phoenix and he was not too impressed with the compressor fridge as even with plenty of solar he felt that it was a bit of a draw on his power reserves.


Martin
 
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Phoenix do not use a Can-bus system unlike most other modern MH manufacturers, N+B, Concorde, Morelo etc. and significantly he said these systems consume 1-2 amps. He therefore argued that the compressor fridge would use less than the Can-bus.

I missing the point here... what has can bus got to do with the power consumption of the leisure equipment...
As far as I know all modern vehicles will use a networking system to control all manner of vehicle functions.. if it' not can bus it will be something else... flex ray ?? Or whatever.. and of course it will consume power...
So what I'm saying is it will nearly certainly employ some networking system whether it's can bus or something else... and the power requirements of those systems Will be minimal and reduce as the vehicle is shut down... I may have missed the point you were saying the bloke was making.... I just didn't See the connectio
Andy.

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Lenny HB

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I don't think the guy has a clue what he is talking about, Phoenix build on both Mercs & Iveco both use a CANBUS system. The leisure electrics on N&B are CBE (I think Concorde are as well). Also a CANBUS system only consumes millamps.

Edit:
Just seen your last post, if they are changing it sounds like more grieff for us owners we don't need, I prefer KISS.
 

eddievanbitz

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I missing the point here... what has can bus got to do with the power consumption of the leisure equipment...
As far as I know all modern vehicles will use a networking system to control all manner of vehicle functions.. if it' not can bus it will be something else... flex ray ?? Or whatever.. and of course it will consume power...
So what I'm saying is it will nearly certainly employ some networking system whether it's can bus or something else... and the power requirements of those systems Will be minimal and reduce as the vehicle is shut down... I may have missed the point you were saying the bloke was making.... I just didn't See the connectio
Andy.
https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus/

It is following on from what happened in the marine industry, as frankly most of the high end electrical equipment is designed for boats anyway. It is a system where all the information is shared through a number of modules, theoretically making battery charging and inverter use more efficient, mainly by giving the user more information and control

It has a quiescent parasitical drain and overly complicates systems in my opinion, and is technology that is added because they can rather than because it is needed.

In a boat there is an argument for it due to the far more complex nature of the 12 VDC electrical system and charging requirements with a typical individual battery bank installation for Port engine Starboard engine, Generator, Axillary (leisure) Stern thruster, Bow thruster a typical installation, all needing to be charged, but all isolated

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funflair

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Talking to a guy on the Vario stand at Dusseldorf last year and he said that you could have the Mastervolt system which I assume is CanBus or you just have Vario's own system which is just simply switches wires a fuse panel and then other equipment like chargers etc but no central bus system.

Just for clarity I think we are talking about the leisure electrics side of vehicle NOT the chassis side.

Martin
 

eddievanbitz

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Talking to a guy on the Vario stand at Dusseldorf last year and he said that you could have the Mastervolt system which I assume is CanBus or you just have Vario's own system which is just simply switches wires a fuse panel and then other equipment like chargers etc but no central bus system.

Martin
If I had the choice of the two I would go for a low tech solution every time. We often see technology used for the sake of it, leaving its owner nonplussed with the whole system or worse, scared to use it as they simply don't understand it.
 
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https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus/

It is following on from what happened in the marine industry, as frankly most of the high end electrical equipment is designed for boats anyway. It is a system where all the information is shared through a number of modules, theoretically making battery charging and inverter use more efficient, mainly by giving the user more information and control

It has a quiescent parasitical drain and overly complicates systems in my opinion, and is technology that is added because they can rather than because it is needed.

In a boat there is an argument for it due to the far more complex nature of the 12 VDC electrical system and charging requirements with a typical individual battery bank installation for Port engine Starboard engine, Generator, Axillary (leisure) Stern thruster, Bow thruster a typical installation, all needing to be charged, but all isolated
Used correctly it can also save a lot of copper and still prevent volt drop. What causes the consumer most grief is the ridiculous pricing of the cheap-to-make comms modules and limited information supplied by the OEMs.

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funflair

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If I had the choice of the two I would go for a low tech solution every time. We often see technology used for the sake of it, leaving its owner nonplussed with the whole system or worse, scared to use it as they simply don't understand it.
Indeed likewise, my argument being that if we bought the likes of a Phoenix or Yes please please please, a Vario I would be on my own as far as servicing and the simpler the better for me, I can follow wires all day long but electronics "I don't do"

Martin
 

Steve N Tracy

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Most the Can bus systems I have worked on go into sleep mode after a set time of inactivity, they then consume minimal power while waiting for a input signal ie a opening a door to wake up.
 

eddievanbitz

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Indeed likewise, my argument being that if we bought the likes of a Phoenix or Yes please please please, a Vario I would be on my own as far as servicing and the simpler the better for me, I can follow wires all day long but electronics "I don't do"

Martin
The other problem is that if you have a fully integrated system, your "nailed" to that system for ever. If you have a system that comprises of wires, fuses, switches and components you can replace or upgrade to suit.

So your out of warranty, sat in Spain and the battery charger packs up! With wires and boxes you simply by a new box that will fit and do the same job

With a fully integrated system your stuffed and over a barrel finacially

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canopus

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'A Controller Area Network (CAN bus) is a robust vehicle bus standard designed to allow microcontrollers and devices to communicate with each other in applications without a host computer. It is a message-based protocol, designed originally for multiplex electrical wiring within automobiles to save on copper, but is also used in many other contexts'.

OEM providers such as Mercedes, Fiat, Ford etc do not provide base vehicles specifically for motorhome converters, the converter adapts the standard, van/lorry chassis and turns it into a motorhome. Consequently, interfacing into an existing CAN bus system could prove very complex.

Additional ancillary systems fitted in motorhomes like heating, lighting, appliances etc which are added to the vehicle by the after market provider, usually operate independently over their own dedicated wiring looms, distribution boards and switches etc and are not interfaced to the CAN bus wiring.
 

eddievanbitz

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'A Controller Area Network (CAN bus) is a robust vehicle bus standard designed to allow microcontrollers and devices to communicate with each other in applications without a host computer. It is a message-based protocol, designed originally for multiplex electrical wiring within automobiles to save on copper, but is also used in many other contexts'.

OEM providers such as Mercedes, Fiat, Ford etc do not provide base vehicles specifically for motorhome converters, the converter adapts the standard, van/lorry chassis and turns it into a motorhome. Consequently, interfacing into an existing CAN bus system could prove very complex.

Additional ancillary systems fitted in motorhomes like heating, lighting, appliances etc which are added to the vehicle by the after market provider, usually operate independently over their own dedicated wiring looms, distribution boards and switches etc and are not interfaced to the CAN bus wiring.
Again we are talking about two seperate things. Many if not all vehicle manufacturers are using CAN systems on the vehicles

The comments made to the OP about CAN systems are the aftermarket Networks manufactured by MasterVolt and Victron for example which are really unnecessary in my opinion, a form of the "Emperors New Clothes"

Sold by people that don't understand what it does or what (if any benefits) a common network leisure electrical system will offer, to people that enthusiastically nod when told how sophisticated the electrical system is, too embarrassed to admit that they struggle with Facebook and emoji's lol (no not Lots Of Love!)(LOL)

As I say, justifiable when you have multiple power banks to manage but questionable in a camper with one leisure battery bank
 
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Again we are talking about two seperate things. Many if not all vehicle manufacturers are using CAN systems on the vehicles

The comments made to the OP about CAN systems are the aftermarket Networks manufactured by MasterVolt and Victron for example which are really unnecessary in my opinion, a form of the "Emperors New Clothes"

Sold by people that don't understand what it does or what (if any benefits) a common network leisure electrical system will offer, to people that enthusiastically nod when told how sophisticated the electrical system is, too embarrassed to admit that they struggle with Facebook and emoji's lol (no not Lots Of Love!)(LOL)

As I say, justifiable when you have multiple power banks to manage but questionable in a camper with one leisure battery bank
I’m one of them :LOL: haven’t got a scooby doo about car/van electrics :rolleyes:

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canopus

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'Again we are talking about two seperate things. Many if not all vehicle manufacturers are using CAN systems on the vehicles '

Thought I'd made that quite clear in my post. Separate ie Can Bus and Anciliary aftermarket equipment.
 
OP
sallylillian

sallylillian

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Thanks all this a very interesting thread as it turns out. Still at the show already ordered the new Thule garage bike thing, and had some stunning debates with Morelo and Phoenix. I could spend a fortune.
 

pappajohn

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If I had the choice of the two I would go for a low tech solution every time. We often see technology used for the sake of it, leaving its owner nonplussed with the whole system or worse, scared to use it as they simply don't understand it.
Very much like the over complicated, and prone to electrical damage, control panels with plug in modules for solar & split charge etc.
Give me wires and switchs any day.

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canopus

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Back in 2012, a woman neighbour of ours who had a very new CITROËN C3. When the River Trent decided to flood in December she didn't shift her car in time. It was immersed in just a foot of water, i.e. just enough to go over the cill and in through the doors. The car had to have its Can Bus completely removed and a total new harness intstalled. She was off the road nearly 10 weeks. All the Can Bus joints were under the carpets on the edge of the cills and nothing on the car would function.
 

eddievanbitz

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Very much like the over complicated, and prone to electrical damage, control panels with plug in modules for solar & split charge etc.
Give me wires and switchs any day.
A great "low tech" example of over engineering was our last Winnebago. Attwood make the gas water boilers, they hold 6 gallons of hot water and to conserve gas many people would add a "Hot Rod" which is to all intents and purposes a immersion heater.

So we ordered the Winnebago and the dealer told us that the "new" Attwood has now got gas and electric water heating! Excellent

So we got the van and everything was fine, but we (My wife) noticed that the gas kept failing to re-ignite and I kept thinking "I should look at that" (actually my wife kept telling me that I needed to "look at that"

I say this because as always happens with these "Yes Dear" events, the bloody thing failed one weekend when we were away, an Autumn weekend away, woke up on the Saturday morning with no hot water and the thing had given up the ghost and despite being told to I'd not even looked at it.

However, always with a back up in mind I said "No drama, switch the mains one on and we'll have another cup of coffee whilst it heats up.

But it didn't!

It turned out once I started to investigate that when we fitted the after market stand alone "Hot Rod" it was 100% independent. Once they factory fitted it, it shared the electronic thermostat along with the Gas water heating. The trouble was as a "failsafe" if the electronics detected a fault on the Gas system the thing shut down locked out!

So instead of having a fallback both gas and electric were shut down in the even of a suspected fault in either despite the two systems actually being totally independent

Needless to say when we ordered our present motorhome we specified the "lower spec'd" Attwood that doesn't come with the dual fuel option and simply fitted the after market "Hot Rod" which gives us the best of both Worlds.

Along with automation and information often comes hand in hand with reduced performance
 
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I think the main reason manufacturers chose anything is cost often at the expense of owner in terms of repair
As an example my e box is around 500 pounds to replace when really it's just a fuse board ,some switches a battery charger and a meter
It comes as a package which is easy for the builder to install

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eddievanbitz

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Sadly the majority of equipment manufacturers exhibit at Trade shows not end user shows, as they see the customer as Swift or Hymer or Pilote, not the annoying Oiks that use them and phone up with questions lol
 
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sallylillian

sallylillian

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Sadly the majority of equipment manufacturers exhibit at Trade shows not end user shows, as they see the customer as Swift or Hymer or Pilote, not the annoying Oiks that use them and phone up with questions lol
So true Eddie, I hate the OEM's that wont deal with us Oiks or Plebs but refer us to a "dealer" who does not stock the item has no idea about it places the order with the OEM to send direct to said Plebs. CBE wont talk to me just refer me to the dealer or manufacturer and you get nowhere.

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stewartwebr

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My understanding of the Bustner Grand Panorama was Burstner dipped their toe into the CANBUS system for the habitation part of the vehicle. It was a complete disaster with the main processor failing time after time. This was okay whilst under warranty, but after that it was a huge expense at about £2k a pop
Along with a windscreen which was too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter the electrics was the main reason it only survived 30 months before being dropped.
 
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