Campervans, Tourist Infrastructure And Our Scottish National Parks (1 Viewer)

[The Lobster]

Nick Kempe, who maintains the parkwatchscotland blog, has been posting again about the attitude of Scottish national park authorities to campervans...

http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2017/09/24/campervans-tourist-infrastructure-national-parks/

He's posted previously, and extensively, about the success (or otherwise) and legality of the Loch Lomond and Trossachs permit system (it's now established that its illegal to require a permit for motorhomes - the park authority has now partially accepted this and refunded permit charges in some areas, but is attempting to retain them in others).

If you have any strong feelings about this area I suggest you drop Nick a line or comment on his blog - he's keen to make sure all users of the national parks are considered properly by the park authority and welcomes your views.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Perhaps if all the people using the national parks for overnighting could be trusted to behave properly, not over stay their welcome, not park inappropriately, not do any damage and clear up after themselves the Park Authority wouldn't feel the need for any control and he wouldn't have to write his little blog.

Just saying

 

[The Lobster]

Perhaps if all the people using the national parks for overnighting could be trusted to behave properly

Seems quite a big, well-researched blog to me - Nick isn't always 100% objective, but he clearly puts a lot of effort into PoI requests, attending park authority public meetings, and publishing and analysing reports that otherwise would probably not see the light of day. Just saying.

I've not seen any published evidence demonstrating that motorhomes are a particular part of the "not behaving properly" issue. The permit system was justified because of overnight camping problems with a minority of campers on the west side of Loch Lomond - as in camping with tents, not motorhomes.... do you have any links you can share?

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[angusboy]

Caught one local guy fly tipping on skye could not get camera out quick enough

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Seems quite a big, well-researched blog to me - Nick isn't always 100% objective, but he clearly puts a lot of effort into PoI requests, attending park authority public meetings, and publishing and analysing reports that otherwise would probably not see the light of day. Just saying.

I've not seen any published evidence demonstrating that motorhomes are a particular part of the "not behaving properly" issue. The permit system was justified because of overnight camping problems with a minority of campers on the west side of Loch Lomond - as in camping with tents, not motorhomes.... do you have any links you can share?

His website reminds me of the immortal cretin Andy Strangeway. If you don't know who he is have a search on here. If any one person has done more damage to the argument for off site camping in this country I've never heard of them. More than enough said on that topic.

It may well have been people in tents causing most of the problems although if you think all motorhomers are model citizens who would never contemplate doing something like that you're living in a dreamland. It's irrelevant anyway, no authority anywhere will ever have the time, resources or interest to waste deciding that this group is OK but this one isn't. The problems were caused by people overnighting so the quickest, easiest, cheapest solution is to restrict all overnighting.

That's the way things are, it's not unique to the Scottish Parks, it's the way things are done everywhere.

 

[jongood]

Scotland could be at a crossroads here. I wonder which way this will go?

Will they ban sleeping in vehicles anywhere but campsites?

Or will they go the NZ route and start providing for them?

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[Jim]

Perhaps if all the people using the national parks for overnighting could be trusted to behave properly, not over stay their welcome, not park inappropriately, not do any damage and clear up after themselves the Park Authority wouldn't feel the need for any control and he wouldn't have to write his little blog.

That logic means we would not need policemen, referees or traffic wardens. There are always those who break the rules. So Mr Kempe, in trying to make sure we don't all suffer for the actions of a few, should be applauded for his "little blog"

 

[Deleted member 29692]

That logic means we would not need policemen, referees or traffic wardens. There are always those who break the rules. So Mr Kempe, in trying to make sure we don't all suffer for the actions of a few, should be applauded for his "little blog"

Anyone appearing to start a crusade on this particular subject is inevitably going to draw comparisons with Strangeway, justified or not.

That's not likely to help his cause is it?

 

[tomm]

We have been up home 3 or 4 times this year , after a gap of about a year. Mainly being in the Trossachs area ,then heading to Mallaig , Skye , Western Isles. One trip we tootled off over to and roamed around the Cairngorm National Park area. With no trip ever planned in terms of itinerary. In that one year gap , the rise in motorhome traffic volume is noticeable , however a significant proportion of the rise in MH traffic we have seen could be attributed to the hire fleet usage. People possibly doing the NC500 and so on.


As an aside ( or maybe even a significant point ?) , have not seen a lot of the hire fleet settling in for the night at pubs etc .So possibly they lean towards using private or club campsites, maybe as per advice from the hire fleet companies ?

A good sign for us anyway is the positive attitude of cafes , pubs , retail outlets, mountain resorts etc ref allowing staying overnight at their premises . When we have stopped off at such places , even if it is just a passing through coffee break , we make a point of asking about staying overnight . I dont remember any refusals on this , not one.With the owners consent , my partner then usually adds the place to search for sites , camper contact data base.

My take on the Loch Lomond and Trossachs National Park Association ( aka , old boy network) camping ban /control measures , is that they have royally shot themselves in the foot . To the point of their actions being deemed illegal , ref taking payment for parking on "public" roads . Go literally a few miles further on from their "control " areas and there are a multitude of businesses as mentioned above who actively welcome MHs . Sometimes more than one in the same village or small town... Killin , Crianlarich and Tyndrum being only 3 examples of the welcoming attitude . At these places have never yet seen any damage or cr*p left lying around caused by the MH users . Although yes , I have seen evidence of this at the more off road and remote places . .......

The latest outpourings from that MSP in the Western Isles , resulted in him being firmly put in his place by local businesses and the tourist organisation themselves .......

So , its not all bleak for MH users

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[Deleted member 29692]

The point I'm making is that whenever this sort of situation arises rather than go to war with the relevant authority trying to find some tiny procedural error to force them to reverse their decision why don't these people put their considerable efforts into working with, rather than against, the authority to try and find a positive solution that works for everyone?

It does work. @GJH has proven that many times.

All that will have been achieved by forcing them to back down on this case is that they will dig their heels in much harder next time and ensure that they're on firmer ground when they do so.

 

[tomm]

Nick , the LLTNPA are clearly not an "authority" on the usage or otherwise on public roads etc . They were not forced to back down by anyone. Taking their attitude and example , it was not as you say a tiny procedural error . Plain and simple their actions were illegal.They completely over stepped the mark.

 

[Northernraider]

Twice in the last week when I've been wilding there have been youngsters in cars parked up for hours engines running music playing and then when they leave there's Mcdonalds papers, cans, bottles etc dumped out the car and they are off.
Its this motorhomer who has picked the stuff up and binned it

I don't believe for one minute that there aren't motorhomers out there who leave a mess and dump waste etc but there are more people in cars doing it than I think there are motorhomes on the road.
Personally any blog or voice that stops the system from removing yet another piece of freedom from people is good and should be supported

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[Deleted member 29692]

Nick , the LLTNPA are clearly not an "authority" on the usage or otherwise on public roads etc . They were not forced to back down by anyone. Taking their attitude and example , it was not as you say a tiny procedural error . Plain and simple their actions were illegal.They completely over stepped the mark.

Doesn't matter. By fighting them rather than working with them it's ensured that next time they'll make sure of their position, take a much harsher stance than they might otherwise have done and not be prepared to listen to or work with anyone.

Having seen the various pictures and reports, the litter and damage and also the morons who think it's fine to use an awning when they're parked in a lay-by just to name a couple of examples, I can't say I blame them in the slightest.

This isn't a new situation - it's been repeated many times all over the country. Initially the LA may not act correctly in a given situation, someone with far too much time on their hands takes up the crusade, they get their tiny initial victory, the LA learn their lesson and next time they're prepared. The crusader never wins another battle and the war is over in short order from that point.

 

[tomm]

Nick this obviously could go round and round all day with responses ......The example I gave was not a LA , it was a national park committee. They dont have any say in signing off legal pronouncements . They were illegal in their actions , plain and simple. As for them as you say , taking a much harsher stance than they might otherwise, how about their stance maybe having to soften . They have royally messed up and have proven to be utterly inept in their stewardship of the park.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

how about their stance maybe having to soften .

That's why not.

It doesn't matter if the people responsible are chavs in cars, motorhomers or the Girl Guides. If they have to act to prevent that sort of thing happening any restriction will apply to everyone equally

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[tomm]

Obviously the photo is an example of completely unacceptable behaviour. And of course its irrelevant who dumped the rubbish. It looks like its on a public highway, therefore and if thats the case , its not for a park authority to deal with in terms of banning this or banning that . Thats down to LAs taking appropriate action , if necessary via the courts.

As an example only , the problems in the Loch Lomond part of the park were shown years ago, to be caused mainly , but not exclusively, by the weekender mountain man . IE the argos buy a camping kit mob. Visiting an area , mainly woodlands and parking areas , then chopping down and burning trees , getting pi**ed and leaving the argos kit and other detritus when they wandered off home.


Of course there are motorhomers who act in a possibly equally irresponsible manner, but I would suggest no where near the numbers of the mountain man mob who caused the closure of parking/camping areas.This ban "all" attitude really has to be addressed and an acceptance that there are "particular" elements of society that should be targeted more rigorously than others.Dependant on the problems associated with particular groups .

 

[WillH]

We live in Scotland and have recently returned from a big loop up North. We have never seen so many hired vans. I think a lack of education and experience is getting us all a bad name. I shan't go on about all the odd and quite frankly. weird , things we've seen.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

This ban "all" attitude really has to be addressed and an acceptance that there are "particular" elements of society that should be targeted more rigorously than others.Dependant on the problems associated with particular groups .

In an ideal world of course you're right but we don't live in an ideal world.

In order to establish which group, if indeed it is only one group, is causing the problem and then to target that group the Park Authority really only has one option and that would be to maintain a large enough physical presence in the areas with a problem to be able to catch people "in the act." Obviously this would require considerable resources which even if they have I'd imagine they have other things to to spend them on. Even then it's unlikely to be all the members of a particular group.

This is why any authority, in any situation, takes the simplest cheapest path they can. In this case the problem seems to happen when people stay in the park overnight so the obvious easy solution is to stop anyone staying in the park overnight. Is that fair on the majority of people who cause no problem? No of course it's not but what other realistic options do they have?

If they cover the park areas with CCTV that would be wrong. The civil liberties loonies would be throwing their toys then.

They're really in a no win situation. Either they accept that idiots will cause problems and just keep clearing up after them or they keep working to impose restrictions and fight a long expensive battle. Even though they will certainly win the battle eventually I don't envy them the choice.

My prediction: within 5 years there will be no overnighting permitted anywhere within the national park boundaries other than in designated (i.e. controlled) locations.

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