Cam belt replaced on 2021 Ducato

[Lbj]

Good Morning - I hope I am posting in the right section!
Hello To MHF. I‘ve been reading and getting lots of helpful tips and advice from your pages but I’m now posting for help with a new van please. I’ve had a Romahome R10 and now an NV200 which I love but am trading up for a self contained van with loo and shower.

I was driving to collect the van yesterday when the dealer phoned - the van had suddenly developed a loud banging so would not be available for collection, so I had to turn round and drive home. Needless to say I was completely gutted! But they stripped it down and found what they think was the problem:

the timing gear had jumped a cog which meant the engine was running rough, they think where the van had been washed a bit of water had got in around the cam and then froze in the very cold overnight temperatures causing the belt to skip one cog which was enough to cause the engine to be rough as anything but not enough to cause any damage. They have ordered a cambelt and ancillary kit which they will replace as a precaution.

As I know absolutely nothing about engines I wanted to get some advice as the Van is a huge financial investment for me - is there likely to be any other damage? the fact that they are changing the cam belt did somewhat reassure me as this is a costly undertaking for them but reading about cam belts the water pump is usually changed at the same time so should I ask for this to be done? should I have a chat with an indecent engineer to discuss about any other implications? Worst case - should I walk away from the deal? The Manager has offered to cover the cost of expenses incurred yesterday. I was booked in with Vanbitz today to have a Growler installed. I spoke to Eddie yesterday who was incredibly understanding but they have lost out as well.

All feedback gratefully received - thanks in advance!

 

[Lagotto]

Personally, I would walk away. I know the garage sound to be open and helpful, but I would not be able to rid my head of concerns moving forward. I would have all kinds of question marks and doubts making me uneasy. I know there will be others who would be happy to go ahead, talk about warranties and be re-assured that all will be fine, its just that this would not work for me. Good luck with your decision making.

 

[Diabalo]

You need to know which engine it is, for some/most engines if the timing is out the valves can come into contact with the pistons which aint good.

 

[PP Bear]

Walk away, there’s another van out there for you somewhere. Also never heard such an excuse as to someone washed it and water got in and froze blah blah blah, just look elsewhere, that’s my advice.

Jumping just the one tooth can lead to the top of the piston striking the valves, which usually bend.

I don’t know if I’d trust the engine after they’ve done it and then spend forever worrying about it.

 

[robnchris]

One notch shouldn't be a problem, so the question is how do they know it only jumped one notch?
The problem that arises is the Valve Timing is altered, one notch should not be enough to cause the Valves to come into contact with the pistons, if that had happened the damage would be considerable.
The fact the garage said there had been loud banging should raise enough concerns for me to want the head removed to check for internal damage.

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[TinaLes]

To The OP, 100% agree with PP Bear above comments.
I know its hard to walk away from the deal as you have your heart set on the new van, but the reason given for the cam belt slipping due to iced water takes some believing.
The dealer will make it awkward by assuring you the van has now been repaired, but I would want a bullet proof written warranty for 30K miles or 5 years,(same as Fiat suggest for cam belt change) whichever comes sooner, for any repairs that may become necessary to be 100% covered by the dealer. Even then who is to say the dealer will still be in business 5 years from now in these challenging times.?

A new engine is £5-7 thousand pounds I am informed, and can take a while to get even a recon one, so that just reinforces to me that its just not worth the risk, especially on a newish van of such high value.
Good luck in making any decisions, either way they are hard ones.
Let us know what you decide.
LES

 

[WillysMB]

Walk away .... Belts usually take a converted route around the engine, cam, water pump, tensioner etc etc so its in my opinion it's impossible for it to jump one tooth .. the expression with BULLS POO comes
to mind,

 

[eurajohn]

A 2021 van unlikely to have an engine dirty enough to require cleaning and simply washing the bodywork would not make the engine wet, perhaps a little from the scuttle dropping onto cam cover area but the timing belt is pretty well covered.
As mentioned in previous replies even one tooth will cause actual harm to the engine internals, if that is genuinely what has happened (although doubtful) they may possibly be able to get it running but will never be correct.
Some while ago there was an unfortunate member that had a major engine failure whilst on holiday in France, that appeared to have been prompted by a small amount of damage which had been caused when the cam belt had been changed as a precaution before their holiday trip, that resulted in a new engine being required, it's a long read but the link is https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/ducato-engine-gearbox-given-up-in-france.261467/

 

[BusyBuilder]

I would have thought if they changed the cam belt, run the engine if any other damage, it would show ? then the garage would have to do any other work needed ?

 

[Lenny HB]

If it has just slipped one notch the engine would just run a bit rough I wouldn't expect any loud banging maybe a bit of noise if ice was frozen on the cam belt. I have heard of it happening before but on old vehicles never on a Ducato.
I'd walk away if it's caused other damage the cost of a new engine plus fitting will be around 9-10k.

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[WillysMB]

 

[WillysMB]

this show the BS of it jumping a tooth ....WALK AWAY ( not a Ducato but you get the idea )

 

[MisterB]

i actually disagree with those who are telling you to walk away ...


i would run like f..k .....


and as for the indecent engineer the OP mentioned .........

should I have a chat with an indecent engineer to discuss about any other implications?

 

[Lbj]

Thank you so much for the replies, it is so helpful to get impartial advice from people with so much experience!
I’m off to walk the dogs which I often find is the best place for decision making and really helps me clear my head!

 

[Lbj]

P.S. You have really made me laugh, thank you I needed that!

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[jezport]

Loud banging = Run for the hills

 

[Pausim]

The general opinion is run for the hills. A 2021 vehicle will still be under the Fiat Warranty. If the dealer is not a Fiat Professional then they should not be touching the engine but should have sent it to a Fiat Professional.

 

[Lofty1]

This is not that uncommon as water can get onto the belt and freeze, but you can buy a kit that diverts the water away ,it is sold for citreon but fits Fiat etc. well worthwhile at about £15

 

[Emmit]

In the past I have owned a car that had it's belt changed and, immediately afterwards, it wouldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding. That was down to being one tooth out. That was down to human error and the boss of the garage was least pleased because on the Audi it's an umpteen hour job.

Had the OP's potential vehicle moved just one tooth I very much doubt that there would be any listenable difference.

Could it be (installing cynical head) that the garage have a better offer? I wonder.

 

[Spriddler]

Depends what caused the 'loud banging noise'. Since the engine was 'running rough' it may have been shaking enough for the zorst to knock against bodywork.

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[gus-lopez]

is there likely to be any other damage?

quite possibly.I'd never be comfortable with it.

The fact the garage said there had been loud banging should raise enough concerns for me to want the head removed to check for internal damage.

This ^^^^

but I would want a bullet proof written warranty for 30K miles or 5 years,(same as Fiat suggest for cam belt change) whichever comes sooner, for any repairs that may become necessary to be 100% covered by the dealer.

^This ^^^^^^^^^^

The general opinion is run for the hills. A 2021 vehicle will still be under the Fiat Warranty. If the dealer is not a Fiat Professional then they should not be touching the engine but should have sent it to a Fiat Professional.

& This ^^^^^^^so if they aren't the Fiat warranty is voided for anything else also.

 

[simsy56]

A 'loud banging' means engine damage, do not touch! A rough running engine doesn't 'bang'!

Craig

 

[TinaLes]

Yes I agree with Gus, thinking about it, unless The Dealer is a recognised Fiat Professional Dealership (which a few are), then why are they touching it? as the van is still under Fiat Warranty?
Also banging noises from the engine is bad news as it has to be metal to metal contact, i.e piston tops hitting valves. The piston tops will show the marks of where the valves have hit the pistons, even if lightly, and the valves could also be bent or damaged.
Fiat main dealer needs to look at this, and ascertain why the damage has occurred, wonder if they believe the ice up story? Its the only way to get a resolve and if possible peace of mind for the future, however I would run away given the chance.
LES

 

[jockaneezer]

What steps should you take ? Bloody big ones in the opposite direction !

 

[Lbj]

Decision made and I have contacted the dealer. The manager who I have been dealing with from the beginning when I first found the van offered me a full refund yesterday including my deposit when he called me as I was 50 miles from getting to the the dealership after a 3 hour drive through rush hour M25. So I have emailed and phoned as well to confirm I will take up his offer. I have no quibbles with him at all. He had someone lined up to buy my van who he said had already sold his car ready to pick up my NV200.

Thanks for all your comments including Pausim and TinaL regarding the Fiat warranty which I hadn’t realised about and is another major reason to cancel. My head was telling me to walk away, I just needed some morale support from people who know what they are talking about.

And I will have to double check what I write in future, but if anyone does knows an “indecent engineer” I would like to talk to him!!

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[Riverbankannie]

Wise decision that I think will make you sleep better tonight. Another great van will come along.
Keep an eye on the classifieds on here.

 

[L' Hobo]

I am/could be an 'indecent engineer' no longer fit enough for fixing but I can talk, sometimes too much, without problems.

My consultancy rates are reasonable (£75 per hr), and my knowledge wide especially on older models (both mechanical and human)

PM me if interested.

 

[Lagotto]

Look out for a new member soon perhaps, proud new owner of this NV200

 

[leggings]

yes you have done the right thing walking away you want an engine in pristine condition. good luck on finding a replacement.

 

[Langtoftlad]

Decision made and I have contacted the dealer. The manager who I have been dealing with from the beginning when I first found the van offered me a full refund yesterday including my deposit when he called me as I was 50 miles from getting to the the dealership after a 3 hour drive through rush hour M25. So I have emailed and phoned as well to confirm I will take up his offer. I have no quibbles with him at all. He had someone lined up to buy my van who he said had already sold his car ready to pick up my NV200.

Good for you
Dealer sounds ok too - although your refund was probably eased by him having another buyer lined up. No doubt that sale was enhanced by the new cambelt

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