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I souldn'treally have given you a funny as for anyone who doesn't understand the risks it's dam dangerous but did make me chuckle.Calor = horrid, horrid, horrid company.
Every time I filled a Calor bottle myself I loved it... really, really loved it.
JJ
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I think maybe confusion arises between cylindrical tanks and cylinders or bottles. A tank with external filler point is a tank whether it's mounted vertically or not so Gaslow, Gasit, et al, are gas-locker friendly tanks, not bottles.I've just sent an email off to UKLPG which the HSE refers to and will let you know what I get back - once I've got a response I shall then tackle the HSE and Calor:
Good morning
I am writing with a serious concern regarding the dangers of refilling LPG cylinders at petrol stations.
I was made aware of a 'news' item on the Calor website below:
I then read the information on the HSE website about this:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/lacs/52-20.htm
The HSE website has a link to your site:
http://www.uklpg.org/advice-and-information/return-unwanted-gas-cylinders/
What concerns me is the apparent condemnation of the refilling ANY cylinders including the ones purpose made for this produced by Gas-it, Gaslow, Alugas etc which are installed in motorhome/camper gas compartments and use a separate purpose made fill point to refill them.
I totally understand the concern about buying adaptors from Ebay etc to enable people to fill Calor etc type cylinders which are NOT meant to be user refilled, but feel that the information give in all of the above, if strictly adhered to by fuel stations etc will mean that those of us with purpose made systems meant to be user refilled will find we can no longer use them.
Can you therefore please let me know what the situation is regarding refilling of purpose made systems (Gas-it etc) so that if difficulties are experiences I have the full information to be able to negate this. There are many members of the motorhome fraternity (I belong to one of the largest forums/clubs for them) who are concerned about this so being able to pass on the information will be beneficial.
Regards
Digging a bit further on this, I haven't yet managed to locate the UKLPG Information Sheet No: 28 referred to on the HSE website?
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One can only assume that Calor is a major driver within the UKPLG
I souldn'treally have given you a funny as for anyone who doesn't understand the risks it's dam dangerous but did make me chuckle.
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Thats why I gave you a funny.I assume you do realise that I fully understand the "risks" I undertake when filling an empty cylinder in good condition, using a beautifully engineered, high spec adaptor.
Pray tell me the "dangers" you perceive there to be, and how much more dangerous these are when compared to filling a car with highly inflammable petrol.
JJ
PS. If you don't know about LPG and what it entails when filling a gas cylinder... DON'T TRY TO DO IT.
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I've just had a response to the email I sent back in January to UKLPG:
Dear Mr Bucknell,
Thank you for your email and I’m sorry for the delay in responding to you. I have today got the below response back from our technical director;
“Please note that the correspondence you have shown me is relating to portable (non-fixed) LPG cylinders that consumers sometimes put in the boot of their vehicle and take out to fill on a forecourt using adaptors. This is where the concern is.
Cylinders with a relief valve that are permanently fixed within a motor home (normally in a gas locker) with a remote purpose built fill connection can be safely refuelled on forecourts, and as far as I am aware the oil companies have not banned this activity.
UKLPG is a trade association and we cannot ban any practice. However, we offer guidance to operators on what they need to do to comply with the law. “
Kind regards,
So, it appears that they don't have a problem with Gaslow/Gasit 'fixed' cylinders or tanks with a remote filler (not the one directly into the bottle) ... might be worth keeping this in mind if challenged.
Unless the van is for hire then any work has to be tested and certified by a suitably qualified personLike all motorhome and caravan gas systems basically anyone can work on them with absolutely no qualifications,
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Digging a bit further on this, I haven't yet managed to locate the UKLPG Information Sheet No: 28 referred to on the HSE website?
One can only assume that Calor is a major driver within the UKPLG organisation.
Information sheet No: 026 dated 2011, makes explicit provision and explanation about the situation for leisure vehicles with approved refillable gas bottles:
http://upload2.evocdn.co.uk/macgas2/uploads/download/2_0_filling-user-owned-cylinders1.pdf
--------------------------
FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES
It is the advice from UKLPG that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at self service autogas refuelling sites.
Containers which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled [my emphasis] at autogas refuelling sites provided they:
- are not removed for refilling;
- and are secured in a suitable enclosure;
- and are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%;
- and are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the container.
--------------------------
BUT, the later version of UKLPG Information Sheet No: 026, dated 2016, makes no such reference to the above:
Broken Link Removed
Make of that what you will?
Edited to add that I finally located Infomation Sheet 028, referred to on the HSE website, which doesn't really cause any issues, because it's not about refilling gas cylinders/tanks.
For one, mine was professionally fitted and pressure checked and system checked every tear by a qualified gas safe fitters.So they are actually saying it is fine to fill any cylinder as calor etc are all fitted with a relief valve ?
There are basically no laws or regulations regarding filling lpg cylinders as far as I can see but lots of guidance issued by trade associations !
Like all motorhome and caravan gas systems basically anyone can work on them with absolutely no qualifications, most owners will be surprised to find that their refillable systems have probably been fitted by someone with absolutely no gas qualifications.
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Reading on this forum and others, it seems to me that there are more safety issues with Gaslow types of installations leaking than from refilling calor bottles. I dont know if its because the Gaslow systems that are leaking are DIY fitted or are inherently prone to leaks.
Personally I would ban the DIY installation of Gaslow types of systems. Even if a DIY fitted system is leak tested and signed off by a qualified person it can still be unsafe if the pipes have been over tightened. There is no way a tester can know. Then months down the line the nut breaks and the system dumps its gas.
We wouldn't allow this kind of DIY installation at home so why allow it on a system where liquid gas is stored on a moving home?
LPG filling illegal ?
But in all fairness and I'm certainly not defending calor but there is plant staff to pay and the plant of course, the transportation to various depots and their profitsThey don't help their cause with the ridiculous prices they charge,,6 kg propane £23 last week,,i can fill my Gas It for less than £6,,,,,what a rip off,,,BUSBY,,
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