Calor... (1 Viewer)

[DuxDeluxe]

OK...... I’m not going to start an argument about the rights and wrongs of refilling Calor or similar on a forecourt or similar. Having worked in the oil and gas industry all my working life, including 8 years as chief officer on LPG and LNG ships, I think I’ve got the knowledge to safely refill one of these cylinders.

What I would like to know from those that do or have done this, is exactly how do you determine how much liquid gas to put in that cylinder? @JJ and any others?

What I would say as has been said by others, is DO NOT even think about this unless you are confident that you can do it safely. I know first hand all the risk factors and still would not do it myself, but it is a free world.

Genuinely interested. I do know how it should be done, by the way - sticking 10kg in a tank is no difference to sticking 35000 tonnes of the stuff in, really........

Thanks - no rights and wrongs but simple answer. Cheers

 

[PeteH]

OK...... I’m not going to start an argument about the rights and wrongs of refilling Calor or similar on a forecourt or similar. Having worked in the oil and gas industry all my working life, including 8 years as chief officer on LPG and LNG ships, I think I’ve got the knowledge to safely refill one of these cylinders.

What I would like to know from those that do or have done this, is exactly how do you determine how much liquid gas to put in that cylinder? @JJ and any others?

What I would say as has been said by others, is DO NOT even think about this unless you are confident that you can do it safely. I know first hand all the risk factors and still would not do it myself, but it is a free world.

Genuinely interested. I do know how it should be done, by the way - sticking 10kg in a tank is no difference to sticking 35000 tonnes of the stuff in, really........

Thanks - no rights and wrongs but simple answer. Cheers

I might, though I don`t see the point in so doing, but only with access to the correct equipment. The guy who Refills my Weld gas cylinder, has a scale and knows exactly the correct methods, but then he also services Fire extinguishing equipment

 

[vwalan]

OK...... I’m not going to start an argument about the rights and wrongs of refilling Calor or similar on a forecourt or similar. Having worked in the oil and gas industry all my working life, including 8 years as chief officer on LPG and LNG ships, I think I’ve got the knowledge to safely refill one of these cylinders.

What I would like to know from those that do or have done this, is exactly how do you determine how much liquid gas to put in that cylinder? @JJ and any others?

What I would say as has been said by others, is DO NOT even think about this unless you are confident that you can do it safely. I know first hand all the risk factors and still would not do it myself, but it is a free world.

Genuinely interested. I do know how it should be done, by the way - sticking 10kg in a tank is no difference to sticking 35000 tonnes of the stuff in, really........

Thanks - no rights and wrongs but simple answer. Cheers

if its an 11 kg of gas bottle then put 22 litres in .
if its halfish full lift it up on a spring balance scales . and take the tare of the bottle off its not hard to work out . remeo or what ever the german camper parts people have been listing gas bottle scales for years . i use some parcel scales to know whats left in a bottle .
some use bathroom scales . if filling a 19kg bottle or what ever instead of saying 38ltrs . perhaps put 35 ltrs just to be safe.
filling at the pumps or tipping one bottle into the other as been going on for years . i first saw tipping being done in turkey when i was there with my parents as a very young kid . by the late 60,s they filled your bottle at the pumps .
lpg pumps were quite common in uk back then and the 70,s .
i bought my lpg manual pump then for filling a lpg powered car i had in the 70,s .
still have the pump, its an american krug lpg pump. ideal for when you carried a spare gas bottle as reserve ,just in case.
this is quite interesting its from a boat site ,https://eoceanic.com/sailing/tips/ALL/70/

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[busby]

May be wrong but if the bottle is empty and you have conversion chart for kg to litres and there is a gauge on the pump you should get it correct and of course only fill to 70% just to be sure.

 

[vwalan]

May be wrong but if the bottle is empty and you have conversion chart for kg to litres and there is a gauge on the pump you should get it correct and of course only fill to 70% just to be sure.

the kg of gas in a full bottle already makes way for the 80%fill.
but even calor admit they may fill to 90%.
if in morocco its best always weigh the full bottle just to check is it properly filled or not .
mind we weigh the bottles and pick the ones with the most gas in them.

 

[EX51SSS]

May be wrong but if the bottle is empty and you have conversion chart for kg to litres and there is a gauge on the pump you should get it correct and of course only fill to 70% just to be sure.

It's 80% fill leaving 20% ullage. Refillable cylinders do have an 80% cut off and tbf, I'm pretty sure so will calor cylinders.
However, for one, I would never even think about refilling a calor type cylinder no matter how safe the system is claimed to be. Short term gain (not paying for refillable cylinders) and although I'm guessing not strictly illegal, then death by explosion is a distinct possibility.
If people want to do it, then fine but I don't think they should advocate its advantages when it's just saving a couple of hundred pounds and think of the consequences but that might be preferable to some.

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[scotjimland]

for filling purposes .. 1kg = 2lt

a bottle is sized for an 80% fill

so for example an 11kg bottle holds 22 liters at 80% full

 

[vwalan]

early bottles from the states and early calor vehicle tanks and house tanks dont all have 80%shut off valves they have a valve you open . when filling gas comes out when at 80%liquid comes out .
my house tank is like that. and the calor gas tank conversion for one of my old vehicles . they should be here soon to fill the house tank.

 

[busby]

for filling purposes .. 1kg = 2lt

a bottle is sized for an 80% fill

so for example an 11kg bottle holds 22 liters at 80% full

Thats what it says on my chart,,,,BUSBY,,

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[vwalan]

if anyone is going to morocco thats the place to get camping gas bottles exchanged though . in morocco you pay for the gas a 907 bottle was about 60p last time i was there 10dh.
glad i had good payload. exchanged loads . mind buy them there with a single gas burner stove on top and sell them back here in uk makes a shilling or two.

 

[EX51SSS]

Getting as bad as gassing thread

 

[DuxDeluxe]

I might, though I don`t see the point in so doing, but only with access to the correct equipment. The guy who Refills my Weld gas cylinder, has a scale and knows exactly the correct methods, but then he also services Fire extinguishing equipment

Quite agree...... you need to be sure to be safe. The level of ignorance with some “experts” on the Internet frankly scares the crap out of me. Autogas is mostly propane but it isn’t exactly 0.5 kilo per litre. Many variables. Good to see that most posts on here are aware. The single most important thing is the ullage space above the liquid

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[GWAYGWAY]

Always remember that CALOR is a big company and they probably have the ear of politicians , especially if one of those aforementioned people happen to be a director, the wife/husband of those people or the friend of one them or even using lobbyist to get at those people in Parliament. FOLLOW THE MONEY. They might even go a far as to lobby for the protection of the profits that they make in the selling of Gas. They would love it if we HAD TO buy their cylinders from them with all other options closed.

 

[EX51SSS]

Always remember that CALOR is a big company and they probably have the ear of politicians , especially if one of those aforementioned people happen to be a director, the wife/husband of those people or the friend of one them or even using lobbyist to get at those people in Parliament. FOLLOW THE MONEY. They might even go a far as to lobby for the protection of the profits that they make in the selling of Gas. They would love it if we HAD TO buy their cylinders from them with all other options closed.

It's a major player but by no means the only lpg supplier

 

[PeteH]

ullage

"Ullage". Your talking durty again!.

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[PeteH]

Always remember that CALOR is a big company and they probably have the ear of politicians , especially if one of those aforementioned people happen to be a director, the wife/husband of those people or the friend of one them or even using lobbyist to get at those people in Parliament. FOLLOW THE MONEY. They might even go a far as to lobby for the protection of the profits that they make in the selling of Gas. They would love it if we HAD TO buy their cylinders from them with all other options closed.

Surely, the EU would not allow that?. It`s "Anti Competitive".

 

[DuxDeluxe]

"Ullage". Your talking durty again!.

Always preferred the word “innage” - snigger, snigger.....

 

[GWAYGWAY]

Getting as bad as gassing thread
View attachment 218479

Can you have grey gas dumping.......?????????? These do seem to run on sometimes

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[tonyidle]

It's 80% fill leaving 20% ullage. Refillable cylinders do have an 80% cut off and tbf, I'm pretty sure so will calor cylinders.
However, for one, I would never even think about refilling a calor type cylinder no matter how safe the system is claimed to be. Short term gain (not paying for refillable cylinders) and although I'm guessing not strictly illegal, then death by explosion is a distinct possibility.
If people want to do it, then fine but I don't think they should advocate its advantages when it's just saving a couple of hundred pounds and think of the consequences but that might be preferable to some.

No - Calor and other non-refillable (in our context and by the end user) bottles do NOT have any sort of cut off. Hence the need to understand how not to overfill.

 

[EX51SSS]

Can you have grey gas dumping.......?????????? These do seem to run on sometimes

Possibly gway gas dumping

 

[EX51SSS]

No - Calor and other non-refillable (in our context and by the end user) bottles do NOT have any sort of cut off. Hence the need to understand how not to overfill.

Thank you, so a lot more dangerous than I thought.

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[tonyidle]

Thank you, so a lot more dangerous than I thought.

I know this because I've cut up a few different makes for various uses and replaced a faulty outlet connection on a Gaslow bottle with one I took from a Calor bottle. Don't tell Calor though .

 

[vwalan]

No - Calor and other non-refillable (in our context and by the end user) bottles do NOT have any sort of cut off. Hence the need to understand how not to overfill.

the pumps are supposed to cut off at 90%pressure .
well years ago i was told that.
there used to be quite a few lpg pumps etc in the late 60,s and 70,s . lpg cars etc were getting quite common . down here wadham stringers were the boys to fit them , it died off in the 80,s as diesel became so popular. plus fuel inj ,
the local china clay company had several petrol trucks running lpg . they charged very little for the gas was ideal. its a round round world we live in .

 

[Tykatem]

Calor’s concern at unlawful and dangerous refilling of LPG cylinders at petrol stations
Posted on: Monday, January 8, 2018 by Katy Blake
This entry was posted in . Bookmark the .

LPG (liquefied petroleum gas) supplier, Calor is extremely concerned at the reported rise in the number of people filling up gas cylinders using autogas dispensers at petrol forecourts. The company is aiming to raise public awareness of this highly dangerous and unlawful practice, which has resulted in series fires, injuries and a number of prosecutions – and to advise that cylinders should never be refilled at petrol stations.

There have been increasing incidents of members of the public purchasing adaptors on the internet and then using these to connect to filling nozzles to refill an empty gas cylinder, such as the type used for camping, caravanning or to fuel gas barbeques.

In 2013 the Health and Safety Executive prosecuted a man who had sold more than 700 potentially dangerous adaptors to members of the public, enabling LPG cylinders to be filled at petrol stations.

John Hodges, a Health and Safety Executive scientist, concluded that the devices were hazardous and likely to cause leaks. Magistrates at Preston County Court heard that the safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and equipment and should only be undertaken by trained personnel on the cylinder-owning company’s premises, and, for safety reasons, are only filled to 80 per cent capacity.

This prosecution followed an incident at Rossendale in Lancashire which caused a dangerous fire on a petrol station forecourt that led to one man suffering serious burns.

UK health and safety law, particularly the Health and Safety at Work Act, the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations, and the Carriage of

Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations, imposes significant duties on petrol station operators to ensure safety.

Henry Betts, Head of Safety at Calor said: “We are extremely concerned about this trend. It is a serious accident just waiting to happen – again. We have thanked the Health and Safety Executive for its robust action in the past, but feel it needs to be doing more to prevent further incidents in the future by taking action against the companies and individuals who sell these dangerous filling adaptors.”

“The vast majority of petrol stations display notices which outlaw this sort of activity. Apart from the obvious dangers, if an accident takes place on a forecourt, the site operator could be liable for prosecution.”



Pete

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[Pausim]

the pumps are supposed to cut off at 90%pressure

That may well be the case but I would think that without an 80% cut off valve the pressure is not going to build up to that level before the cylinder is over filled. Pressure and volume are different things. I truly do not understand why anyone without the proper expertise and knowledge would want to take the risk. It will only take one nasty accident for us all to get banned from the forecourts and that would make me very unhappy, having just paid out for the proper equipment.

 

[tonyidle]

That may well be the case but I would think that without an 80% cut off valve the pressure is not going to build up to that level before the cylinder is over filled. Pressure and volume are different things. I truly do not understand why anyone without the proper expertise and knowledge would want to take the risk. It will only take one nasty accident for us all to get banned from the forecourts and that would make me very unhappy, having just paid out for the proper equipment.

LPG pumps don't have to pump at any higher pressure than that needed to overcome friction in the pipework and hoses. The vapour pressure on each side of the pump is equal (not quite because of possible temperature differences between the site storage & vehicle tanks). The pump doesn't therefore have to overcome any large pressure differential - it is simply a liquid pump. The recipient cylinder pressure does not increase as it is filled (maybe marginally until displaced vapour returns to liquid state) so there's no change to sense as 80% full is reached.

 

[vwalan]

That may well be the case but I would think that without an 80% cut off valve the pressure is not going to build up to that level before the cylinder is over filled. Pressure and volume are different things. I truly do not understand why anyone without the proper expertise and knowledge would want to take the risk. It will only take one nasty accident for us all to get banned from the forecourts and that would make me very unhappy, having just paid out for the proper equipment.

once you have worked out how much is in the bottle its not hard to only put enough in to fill . or even not quite fill. if you could say put 22litres in just put 20 to be safer.
its really not difficult .
i once worked on a large campsite down here and if we ran out of bottles there was a pump on site to fill a few till the next delivery . that was back in 1976 . filling bottles as been going on for years and years .
like i said earlier i first saw it in turkey when there in a m,home with my parents . lots garages the people just came out and filled your bottle at the pumps . be it big small or camping gas . worked then .

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[PeteH]

In my Second "Career", I used to do examinations for Calor of the big industrial Vessels, tested every 10 years. One such was on a Market Garden. The owner had a Big Georgie Boy R-V (petrol) converted to LPG. He had an LPG pump for his two Fork lift Trucks. He admitted that he also filled his LPG tanks on the R-V, from his tank, which was of course Tax Rated "Domestic" (5%) as opposed to Road Fuel, which had a higher rate and VAT.

Virtually all R-V`s, certainly the older ones, have LPG tanks with vents not Shut off valves. When it spits out Liquid, you know you have 80%. Simple and Foolproof In My Opinion.

 

[PeteH]

Always preferred the word “innage” - snigger, snigger.....

I`ve drank in those establishments as well!

 

[vwalan]

i forgot to add that when in turkey and places like that i think it must be compulsory to smoke at the same time and throw light matches around as well. they all seem to do it .
i imagine it must be in their health and safety regs .

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