buying a van ,a cautionary tale (2 Viewers)

[Cliffdale]

Now you have......

Not that I want to tangle with anyone, but what is the difference of naming and shaming?

 

[Jim]

Now you have......

Not that I want to tangle with anyone, but what is the difference of naming and shaming?

Sorry I don't understand your question.

 

[Cliffdale]

No one has said he can't name the dealer. Just that the rules here, rules we all signed up to, says he shouldn't do it here. He can do it on review sites, he can do it on your website, he can do it on social media. This is a place for the fun aspects of our hobby, getting letters from solicitors is no fun at all which is why we don't allow it.

The question is

The rule here, ( I assume naming and shaming), you say you cant do it here.

How come it is ok to name Marquis in such a negative way but not mention the ops dealer?

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[Jim]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave a moment ago

http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum...-a-cautionary-tale.138338/page-7#post-2020062

 

[Cliffdale]

Good answer, do you know my wife?

 

[Robert Clark]

do you know my wife?

This isn't one of those 'Swingers' sites you know !

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[Langtoftlad]

A reminder. It's always a good idea to pay the deposit or part of the purchase with a credit card as you will have rights under the consumer credit act 1974 s 74.1

Unfortunately not applicable in this case as the maximum covered is £30k

From MSE's extensive info on the subject;
"A trick to help - pay the deposit by credit card and you're covered
The law's specific on this, you get the protection for the whole cost of an item or service, even if you only pay for a part of it on credit. The only condition is that what you're buying costs more than £100 and less than £30,000."

 

[Dave the builder]

I would like to put in my 2 pennies worth we have recently bought our first motorhome privately. Now I would say I am a reasonably cautious person. We had been to a dealer who basically had mostly 10 year old+ vans for sale most of them had faults of one kind of another one in particular had a discolouration on the ceiling which I said I thought was damp. The dealer said it wouldn't be damp probably some one had left the hatch open when it was raining. On another one whole side had delaminated and had quite a bit of warping. He said nothing to be alarmed about they all do that after a while. Well that encouraged me to look else where!
I bought mine after looking around it on two occasions for about an hour or so and chatting
to the seller. And then decided to buy. When I got it home we realised it had several minor faults that we hadn't noticed.Now my point is sometimes in the excitement you don't see every thing and not even obvious things particularly when it's your first buy and inexperienced. So I think this is the case with these people.
But they did see it and they didn't buy, so all good! I also think that they're opinion about not wanting to name and shame should be respected at least by posting it has made people more wary and thanks for sharing.
Good luck on buying a goodun.

 

[pyro]

It's already been said that not all complaints about an individual dealer will necessarily be authentic, and could have originated from a competitor, disgruntled ex-employee, or someone else harbouring a grudge. This exposes the site to legal action, and I can understand Jim's reluctance to be drawn into such contention

And it's already been said that this thread serves little point without naming and shaming the dealer concerned, albeit that the response was that it does serve a useful purpose in warning everyone to exercise extreme caution in buying any used M/H.

In my opinion, the matter would far better have been dealt with in being referred to Trading Standards, and any failure to do so and bring those trying to pass off unserviceable motorhomes as fit for purpose to justice is a wasted opportunity. Any prosecution would then be in the public domain, and could be linked here and elsewhere for everyone to see.

I'm sorry that the OP's time and money was wasted in traipsing over to the dealer concerned, glad that his money stayed firmly in his pocket and disappointed that this alleged rogue trader appears to have escaped lightly in not being reported to Trading Standards. I have already posted up a link to a case regarding motorhome dealer prosecutions just this week (http://www.worcestershirets.gov.uk/news/appeal-dismissed-for-fraudulent-used-motorhome-dealer.aspx) - which proves that the system does work. I have also put up a legal resource (http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/resources/buying-a-new-motorhome.190/) for people who are dissatisfied after buying a M/H.

It would make my day to hear this has been investigated and the dealer brought to account by the statutory authorities, but I won't hold my breath

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[GWAYGWAY]

The one thing that does come out of the rather enlarged debacle is that most motorhomes seem to leak and a bit too much for my liking. Too many complaints about water ingress, it should not be so.
The idea of a vehicle being made of a wooden frame covered with GRP or alloy does not make me feel at all happy about the construction methods. Having seen a company using Youtube to show the way their caravans are made shows minimum pay workers slapping a little bit of glue down and then putting polystyrene blocks into the gaps before a inner skin shows that the design and construction is rubbish.
GRP is best made in a mould as one piece and the insulation added inside so it does not and cannot leak. boats made like MH would not be a good buy. A lot of makers are now going to better methods with NO WOOD and properly bonded skins that are as good as I would expect. It is the joints that fail usually from flexing of the body in use, or poorly sealed openings. If a properly made foamed composite is used and the roof being a one piece cap over the sides then there is little to worry about as WATER does not cause much problem, if it DOES NOT GET IN.
All of us have allowed the industry to sell these LUXURY VEHICLES to us over the years that are not up to the mark.

 

[pyro]

GRP boats frequently suffer from , usually described as a fibreglass "pox", and often extremely difficult to remedy. I have seen many 10 year old boats (and even younger) ending up being written off as a result or both osmosis and gel coat creep ("spidering" and stress cracking: )

There are many boats made of wood still in use for passenger purposes today, more than half a century after construction. The strength/weight ratio is pretty much unbeatable, unless you start looking at far more exotic (and far more costly) materials (e.g. carbon fibre). Most GRP boats incorporate wood in their structure in any case

I agree that many problems are attributable to construction quality, but I would hesitate to generalise about the use of wood within habitation construction. Hymer tried that tack, if I recall, and hardly proved their point over the years. Properly used and maintained, wood/polymer in combination with modern adhesives and good workmanship is pretty much the best there is.

 

[Dave the builder]

I absolutely agree. With technology now it is not hard to make some thing water tight the system of joints and trims haven't changed in 30+ years. Pathetic really.

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[Just smiffy]

This isn't one of those 'Swingers' sites you know !

You been to one of the rally's yet....!

 

[Just smiffy]

I'm quite unsure why someone who "knows" the the auto trail range are full of damp with construction problems put a deposit down on a 44k without checking it over fully....?

If I had 44k I would be looking at an other brand.....

I too wish I had found this site with warnings such as yours before I bought my first motorhome to my cost.... However, I learnt a lot in the process of buying a lemon and from the responses and help from this forum found the van that was right for me... (Even one that builds sand castles)

I for one feel that you get from this site what you put in, I must put something in as I get a whole lot from it....

I truly hope you too can find the right van for you.....

 

[Bacchus]

GRP boats frequently suffer from , usually described as a fibreglass "pox", and often extremely difficult to remedy. I have seen many 10 year old boats (and even younger) ending up being written off as a result or both osmosis and gel coat creep

I think this post is a little misleading; there is a well known saying in boating circles that "no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis", it is generally accepted to be a useful way of getting the price down but is nearly always fixable very rarely to the stage where it would cause structural issues (delamination). I have willingly trusted my life to boats with a bit of osmosis. Also it is caused by constant immersion in water, I would bet my mortgage that no motorhome has ever had problems with osmosis.

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[pyro]

I think this post is a little misleading; there is a well known saying in boating circles that "no boat has ever sunk due to osmosis", it is generally accepted to be a useful way of getting the price down but is nearly always fixable very rarely to the stage where it would cause structural issues (delamination). I have willingly trusted my life to boats with a bit of osmosis. Also it is caused by constant immersion in water, I would bet my mortgage that no motorhome has ever had problems with osmosis.

Although you take one point out of the context of the whole post, I agree this was misleading, and am probably guilty of exaggerating a little to get my point across. However, I have seen extortionate costs for getting rid of osmosis, to the extent where they are effectively beyond economic if not beyond physical repair. To this extent, I have seen boats scrapped because of economic as opposed to physical reasons.

The point I was trying to get across was that wood often forms the core infrastructure laminated within a fibreglass shell, as used in boat construction by some of the most reputable manufacturers (e.g. Corvette, Princess and Broom - all of whom are very well known to me). It is not at all unusual to find wood sandwiched within fibreglass to hold decks, flooring, form bilges and even to provide engine mounts, therefore to blame the incorporation of wood within a fibreglass structure for water ingress seems a bit simplistic.

As does the suggestion that there has been no progress in jointing techniques. Adhesives have improved beyond recognition over the years, extrusions are commonplace nowadays, ultrasonic welding us now used with abs and extended damp guarantees are now commonplace

 

[Bacchus]

Although you take one point out of the context of the whole post

Guilty (c: I just wanted to point out that there is a lot of charlie hotel romeo alpha papa talked about osmosis and to allay anyone's fears that it might affect a moho, because it simply won't.

I have had a very nasty experience with grp encapsulated timber stringers in a boat that I bought - bulletproof construction when new but (I think that) you can guarantee that water will get in at some stage, at which stage the timber will rot.

to blame the incorporation of wood within a fibreglass structure for water ingress seems a bit simplistic

More than simplistic! It is an enormously strong and long lasting technique but won't last for ever and is difficult to repair. At least it's something I shan't have to worry about on my current boat; rust on the other hand...

 

[pyro]

Hehehe. An aside, but my brother's Pedro rusted pretty thoroughly long before the teak decking on my Corvette started swelling

Yes, you're right, people do talk as much c**p about osmosis as they do wood M/H are safe from osmosis, although spider & stress cracks are possible. Most newer M/H (e.g. Chausson) seem to use abs, from what I gather

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[Bacchus]

Corvette

Nice.

on the wishlist...(c:

Pedro - not a fan, looked at quite a few before settling on a de Groot (36)

 

[pyro]

Now the de Groot is a very nicely made boat

 

[Cilfan]

Quite interesting, we've gone from casting doubt on dealers to casting doubt on the products of a manufacturer.

I know who I'd rather be up against for defamation

Andrew

Threads do wander off on lateral (associated) tangents - that's the way of forums and what makes them both interesting and informative.

If I were a senior exec of a company making and selling a product for £50-£60k that (according to a forum), was barely fit for purpose within 5-6 years; I'd be asking some serious questions about the quality of my product before even thinking of calling my lawyers.

To the best of my knowledge this isn't the first time that this brand has come under scrutiny on this board.

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[wigster]

I think the OP was right in posting and could save some poor sod , if they've got the sense to do the checks, allot of money and stress.
I also think he was totally right in not naming and shaming the dealer involved , here anyway, this is not an old wild west forum that used to exist in the early days of the internet where anyone could slag everyone off.
@Jim owns and in effect publishes this forum and i think respect is due for the hard work involved let alone fending off solicitors letters etc. We all know the rules when we pay our subs.
I respect and have learned from this thread about trading standards and things that could be done but i do not like some of the posts almost not quite calling the OP a liar .I suppose people dont mean it that way though.

Just my opinion .

Steve .

 

[Cilfan]

we are now actually frightened to go and part with the cash for another van. is private the better option ?

Cookie, you clearly have savvy that you are prepared and able to use. You also have a (cash -all important) budget that I can only dream of. In your position I would definitely explore buying private.

I know that goes against the flow but bear me out.

Yes you lose the comfort (comeback) blanket, but you pay for that - quite heavily at your price bracket - probably to the tune of £6-8k (or maybe more)over a private purchase on a like for like basis.

That sort of money buys a lot of remedial "snagging" - which on a newish van, carefully checked out, should be all that's required - and/or those "must have" bolt on goodies.

Used motorhome dealers are a business (statement of the blindingly obvious), who not only have to make a profit, but also cover the overhead of several grands worth of dead money sitting on their lot potentially for a number of weeks.

I recall reading a post on here from a funster who saw a MH he knew on a dealers forecourt for either £24k or £26k. He also knew that dealer had acquired it for £12k. That gives you an idea of the sort of markups dealers apply - a good percentage of which could remain in someone's pocket by buying privately.

 

[wigster]

I bought private well under my budget to have money spare to cover any problems .

If your not happy with going with a private sale maybe get a local to the van mh engineer look it over , worth a couple of hundred quid .

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[ShiftZZ]

Unfortunately not applicable in this case as the maximum covered is £30k

From MSE's extensive info on the subject;
"A trick to help - pay the deposit by credit card and you're covered
The law's specific on this, you get the protection for the whole cost of an item or service, even if you only pay for a part of it on credit. The only condition is that what you're buying costs more than £100 and less than £30,000."

I realise that £44k is outside the CC and the £100 deposit is what I said.

 

[peterc10]

A reminder. It's always a good idea to pay the deposit or part of the purchase with a credit card as you will have rights under the consumer credit act 1974 s 74.1

Only works for vans up to £30,000 though.

 

[pyro]

I interpret S75 pf the Consumer Credit Act as only applying to transactions above the value of £100 and no more than £30,000, and confirm that it also applies where only a deposit has been paid using a credit card.

The MSE website is a superb resource, but the forum is not always the most reliable source of information. I recommend an article written by a lawyer: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

@wigster Whilst I make no apologies for being sceptical as to why the most obvious remedy was not pursued, I accept that the OP has his reason for dealing with things in his own way and respect his decision not to identify the business concerned. For all we know the cheap damp meter he bought to test things may have been faulty or used improperly.

It is not my place, or anyone else's here, to judge a situation of which we know extremely little - but this is the internet. When you post something in a forum (within the rules of that forum) - especially one that you have only just joined - then you have to respect the rights of others to question what you have said

At least this thread has served as a caution to anyone thinking of buying a used van (from a dealer or privately) and a reminder as to the consumer rights (both in relation to credit and trading standards) that apply.

Let's hope the OP finds what he is looking for and comes out of this with his expectations fulfilled

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[Cliffdale]

Thank you to the op for the cautionary tale!

Look what arrived this morning.

I hope it comes in useful!

 

[GWAYGWAY]

I was really commenting on one piece GRP cap type roofing, one that does not have butt joint to leak but actually go over the side panels and not allow water in at the joints . after all that is where most leaks occur there and the opening which have not enough sealant around them, not difficult really.

 

[Emmit]

Unbelievable.
Just got off the phone' to a friend who, in the past 4 mths. has bought a late model Savannah.
He arrived home yesterday after losing three days of his life hanging around a dealership who were supposedly repairing it to get rid of water, (not damp, it had got further than that) in the lockers and space under one of his seats.
The Service manager in the course of a two hour discussion actually admitted that when they took the vehicle in, it was known and recorded that there was remedial work to be done to cure the above and, regardless, they sold it without lifting a finger.

My mate, totally oblivious as to the above bought the thing, found the fault and had to drive a long way (I know where and I ain't saying) and as said, lost three days AND THEN DISCOVERED IT'S STILL LEAKING!!!

The upshot is that the 'van is being collected by the sellers and delivered back to Cornwall. This journey, unless it's on the back of a low loader will add considerable mileage to the odometer.
However, this won't happen until February 2017. The Co. say they are too busy but my mate is on first refusal if there's a cancellation???

Having only had a good experience when spending that kind of money, I'm lost as to what to advise my mate with regard to what level of compensation he should push for.
To recap, the seller knowing and admitted that the vehicle had faults that amounted to more than £1000 for ingress of water. This claim was recorded with Autotrail. They then sold it without admitting those faults and have caused my friends to drive a considerable distance to have a botched job done that will require further remedial work in four months time.
What should be my mates opening gambit. How much (other than a lot) should he push for.?
Over to you. All suggestions gratefully received

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