Burstner i727 Fitting a CBE CSB2 Help

[Emmit]

Good Afternoon,

Our Burstner (2011) has

aftermarket fitted solar and a Victron 75/15 regulator.
I've noted that the solar does not charge the van battery when off grid.

I have it in mind to fit a CBE CSB2 trickle charger to utilise the extra solar available when the van is laid up.

I've exposed the electrics fitted under Mrs Emmit's seat as I understand that's where the three wires should be connected to bridge the hab. batteries to the van battery.

I've taken a photo but to my untrained eye it looks like a collection of rainbow Chinese noodles
Can anyone point me in the right direction which could be an auto electrician!

 

[TinaLes]

Hi Derek all you need is a Vanbitz Batery Master Charger, it will send a small current to the cab battery from the leisure batts keeping it maintained while stored up or off grid. Its tiny and has three small wires one to cab battery positive, one to leisure bat positive and a common neutral.
The picture you have taken looks like an Electro Block, you should be able to find the feeds to both sets of batteries as hopefully they are marked up in German
Others will be along with better Electroblock knowledge than me, as we have CBE stuff in ours.
Good luck.
LES

 

[Stealaway]

I think the Vanbitz Battery Master Charger is probably the best and easiest option.
It seems to be very popular on here.

[Broken Link Removed]

 

[DT]

I fitted the Battery Master several moths ago. Perfect.

 

[Emmit]

Thank you.
However, whatever piece of wizardry I fit, where does it go?

I would point out that the van battery is under the nearside footwell and the hab. batteries are hardly next door being just in front of the rear n/s wheels.

It is my understanding that the wires come together at the electro lock. Is this correct.?

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[namwaldog]

We used a Shaudt LR1218 solar charge controller when fitting solar panels to our 2010 Burstner.
The kit came with several block connectors and leads to connect the Schaudt controller direct to the EBL 99 (same as yours) which charged both starter and leisure batteries.

Is it worth checking the Victron manual to see if similar connectors are available?

 

[autorouter]

You want a connection to the leisure battery, starter battery and common negative. At the EBL, they are available on the front panel or on the rear terminal block.

On the 3-way connector marked Solar, Pin 1 is negative and Pin 3 is leisure battery positive. Unfortunately on the EBL99 Pin 2 is not the starter battery positive, as it is on some other EBLs.

On the 5-way connector, Pin 1 is the starter battery positive.

If the 3-way Solar connector is not in use, it can be used for the CSB2. It's a Mate'N'Lok (MNL) connector, available a automotive electrics suppliers. They usually come as a pair, with separate pins that crimp on the wires. Then slide the pin into the shell so the barbs click and lock the pin in place. Finally you have to insert a fuse into the 'Solar' slot to complete the connection to the leisure battery. Any size will do, up to 15A.

For the 5-way connector, which can be a bit more difficult to find, you could make up a short extension lead with a 5way plug and socket (10cm for example). However you could crimp an extra wire into Pin 1. Then unplug the 5-way from the front panel, plug in the extension, and plug the existing wire into the extension. It all works as it did before, but you now have an extra wire for the starter battery connection of the CSB2.

Edit: Those cables numbers 9 and 10 in namwaldog's picture are the kind of thing I mean.

An alternative to all this is to use the big terminal block at the back of the EBL. There are the three wires you want, just be careful of the colour code, they are not what you expect.

 

[Emmit]

You want a connection to the leisure battery, starter battery and common negative. At the EBL, they are available on the front panel or on the rear terminal block.

On the 3-way connector marked Solar, Pin 1 is negative and Pin 3 is leisure battery positive. Unfortunately on the EBL99 Pin 2 is not the starter battery positive, as it is on some other EBLs.

On the 5-way connector, Pin 1 is the starter battery positive.

If the 3-way Solar connector is not in use, it can be used for the CSB2. It's a Mate'N'Lok (MNL) connector, available a automotive electrics suppliers. They usually come as a pair, with separate pins that crimp on the wires. Then slide the pin into the shell so the barbs click and lock the pin in place. Finally you have to insert a fuse into the 'Solar' slot to complete the connection to the leisure battery. Any size will do, up to 15A.

For the 5-way connector, which can be a bit more difficult to find, you could make up a short extension lead with a 5way plug and socket (10cm for example). However you could crimp an extra wire into Pin 1. Then unplug the 5-way from the front panel, plug in the extension, and plug the existing wire into the extension. It all works as it did before, but you now have an extra wire for the starter battery connection of the CSB2.

Edit: Those cables numbers 9 and 10 in namwaldog's picture are the kind of thing I mean.

An alternative to all this is to use the big terminal block at the back of the EBL. There are the three wires you want, just be careful of the colour code, they are not what you expect.

Thank you.

"An alternative to all this is to use the big terminal block at the back of the EBL. There are the three wires you want, just be careful of the colour code, they are not what you expect".

It's those last two lines that I am interested in.
Because the front of the Electroblock is somewhat 'Difficult to access' (I have no passenger door and had to hang over the back of the seat to take the photo!), I intend to remove the seat and get to that terminal block that I have seen a photo of before.

 

[Lenny HB]

I think the Vanbitz Battery Master Charger is probably the best and easiest option.
It seems to be very popular on here.

[Broken Link Removed]

Why? The connections are exactly the same as for a CSB2, fitting is the same they just work slightly differently.

 

[Lenny HB]

As autorouter says the solar connections on the EBL99 don't connect to the starter battery. With the EBL being under the seat the easiest option is to connect directly to the batteries. I would connect CSB2 input & neg to the hab battery then you only need to run one wire to the starter battery.

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[Emmit]

Not wishing to be confrontational Lenny but dare I suggest you have not had the 'enjoyment'??? of getting to the terminals of the hab batteries of a Burstner i727.

I don't know where they put the hab. batteries in other Burstner models but on ours, they put the 'accessable'??? easiest battery in a box, approx 10" off the ground (with a lid that lifts up to approx horizontal. In other words, it helps if you sit on the drive, lean back and be thankful God didn't give you a long body!!!) and then, they fastened it down with a round headed female fixing nut in a gap approx. 50mm from the second battery.
In other words it was necessary to callifudge (technical term) a long hex bar, long enough to get above the two batteries to ratchet the bolt out to allow me to move the battery to the right and away from a fixed clamp on the left side of the battery.
Alright, I've put a standard 8m bolt in there now but the swear box in our house can now pay for a tank fill up (with the reserve light on)

No, thank you, but I'll stick to fitting this part under the seat.

 

[autorouter]

Why? The connections are exactly the same as for a CSB2, fitting is the same they just work slightly differently.

The CSB2 and the BatteryMaster do work differently, as @LennyHB says.

The CSB2 works on a voltage threshold. If the leisure battery voltage exceeds 13.6V then the CSB2 turns on. That will happen if the leisure battery is being charged, by mains, solar or anything else. It will supply a trickle charge to the starter battery, anything up to 4A.

However if the voltage never reaches 13.6V, for example if the solar input is not very good, then it doesn't turn on at all. That may be exactly what you want, or maybe you prefer the other type of trickle-charger.

The Batterymaster works on a voltage difference, not a voltage threshold. If the voltage difference between the leisure battery and the starter battery is more than a fixed amount, about 0.5V, then the BatteryMaster turns on. It limits the charging current to a maximum of 1.1A. So as the starter battery voltage drops, if the leisure battery is 0.5V or more higher than the starter battery, it will trickle charge it.

If there is no external charging available, both batteries will gradually discharge. The starter battery will lose charge slower than if it was coping on its own. That may be exactly what you want, or maybe you prefer the voltage threshold type.

You decide depending on your individual situation. But at least you can make an informed choice.

Both of these trickle-chargers have two other functions. They do not back-feed any current from the starter to leisure battery, under any circumstances. Also when the starter motor fires up, the starter motor takes a huge current from the starter battery. The current from the leisure battery is always limited to the trickle-charge maximum (4A or 1.1A) so no danger of overloading the wiring or stressing the leisure battery.

There is a version of the CSB2 designed for lithium leisure batteries and lead-acid starter batteries, called the CSB2-LT, which could be a better option than the CSB2 in that case. It works on the same voltage thresholds. However it requires a 'signal' of +12V to indicate that the solar or mains is active, otherwise it doesn't turn on . This is to avoid constant charging whenever the lithium battery resting voltage being above 13.6V, as it frequently is. The manual instructions are not very clear in English, due to the mis-translation of mains voltage supply as 'Net', as it is in German. Nobody calls the mains power grid the 'Net' in English.

The BatteryMaster is a sealed box, with no adjustment required or possible. You may regard that as an advantage or a disadvantage. If you want adjustment, the Ablemail AM-12 has settings that can be adjusted to your liking.

 

[Emmit]

Thank you to all contributors to this thread.
I admit I've yo-yoed between trying to attach cables from the hab batteries, (that's a word that starts with b and ends with either gger or tard!!!) or buying/fitting a CBE.
In the end I've gone with the CBE.
This morning I removed the six bolts holding Mrs Emmit's seat to the box. That has given me access to the rear of the Electroboc. In turn, this gives access to the three terminals necessary to connect the CBE, (see photo)

Bought the CBE from CAK Tanks. Arrives Friday.

 

[Reallyretired]

Bit late as you've already ordered it but I found the CBE that was on my last motorhome still allowed the starter battery to go flat in the winter. The solar rarely raised the leisure battery voltage high enough to give any significant charge to the starter battery. The way the battery master works would have avoided this.

 

[Ingwe]

The CSB2 and the BatteryMaster do work differently, as @LennyHB says.

The CSB2 works on a voltage threshold. If the leisure battery voltage exceeds 13.6V then the CSB2 turns on. That will happen if the leisure battery is being charged, by mains, solar or anything else. It will supply a trickle charge to the starter battery, anything up to 4A.

However if the voltage never reaches 13.6V, for example if the solar input is not very good, then it doesn't turn on at all. That may be exactly what you want, or maybe you prefer the other type of trickle-charger.

The Batterymaster works on a voltage difference, not a voltage threshold. If the voltage difference between the leisure battery and the starter battery is more than a fixed amount, about 0.5V, then the BatteryMaster turns on. It limits the charging current to a maximum of 1.1A. So as the starter battery voltage drops, if the leisure battery is 0.5V or more higher than the starter battery, it will trickle charge it.

If there is no external charging available, both batteries will gradually discharge. The starter battery will lose charge slower than if it was coping on its own. That may be exactly what you want, or maybe you prefer the voltage threshold type.

You decide depending on your individual situation. But at least you can make an informed choice.

Both of these trickle-chargers have two other functions. They do not back-feed any current from the starter to leisure battery, under any circumstances. Also when the starter motor fires up, the starter motor takes a huge current from the starter battery. The current from the leisure battery is always limited to the trickle-charge maximum (4A or 1.1A) so no danger of overloading the wiring or stressing the leisure battery.

There is a version of the CSB2 designed for lithium leisure batteries and lead-acid starter batteries, called the CSB2-LT, which could be a better option than the CSB2 in that case. It works on the same voltage thresholds. However it requires a 'signal' of +12V to indicate that the solar or mains is active, otherwise it doesn't turn on . This is to avoid constant charging whenever the lithium battery resting voltage being above 13.6V, as it frequently is. The manual instructions are not very clear in English, due to the mis-translation of mains voltage supply as 'Net', as it is in German. Nobody calls the mains power grid the 'Net' in English.

The BatteryMaster is a sealed box, with no adjustment required or possible. You may regard that as an advantage or a disadvantage. If you want adjustment, the Ablemail AM-12 has settings that can be adjusted to your liking.

autorouter Thank you for this. You’ve largely answered the question I put to you in a pm which was not addressed.

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[Emmit]

Thank you autorouter for your input.

I have made a habit of observing the dials in our van which is parked on our drive at home.

Obviously allowing for the weather, invariably the display for the Hab. batteries during the day shows
a Voltage well over the 13.6V given as the 'switch' power to allow the Van Battery to be charged.

I will remember this conversation moving forward.

 

[Emmit]

I was hoping??? that, with the very swift arrival of the CBE in the post
by now I would be up and running with electricity flowing
from the Hab Batteries to the van battery.

Alas, no such luck.

I connected the two via the wiring block at the back of the EBL and got the obligatory
'Green Light' on the CBE.

After putting the seat back I retired with a smug expression and waited for an
improvement in the Van's battery.

Five days later, and despite some lovely days when the Hab. Battery has been showing
a very healthy 14+v being thrown into it (and therefore onward into the Van battery,???)
the Van battery has continued to decline in power shown.

If it was just a question of a connection direct from solar I could understand this but,
following the setting of the Sun, the green light has continued for several hours
until the solar's action on the Hab battery has 'settled' when, on going out to the van
in late evening, the green light is extinquished. I understand that this is as it should be,
ie @+13.6v the hab. Batteries should continue to supply juice.

Has anyone got any suggestions?
Is there a fuse somewhere between the three terminals at the rear of the Block and
the Van Battery itself and, if that is the case, would that have an effect on the green light.

As per usual Thanks in advance.

 

[Hoovie]

Why? The connections are exactly the same as for a CSB2, fitting is the same they just work slightly differently.

I was just going to point out the same thing when I just saw your post

Just about every trickle charger/maintainer has a Starter Battery +ve, a Leisure Battery +ve and usually a ground/-ve, be they the CSB2, the BM, the Votronic unit, the Sterling jobby, the Trik-L-Start, The AMT12-2 and whatever other ones I have forgotten to mention.

 

[GeoffnDee]

It could be worth checking that the fuse/connection that is normally near to the + terminal at the starter battery for the cable that goes to the rear of EBL is ok. The indicator light on a Vanbitz battery master will still illuminate even if the starter battery has no connection to it and it may be that your CSB2 unit is the same

 

[Emmit]

It could be worth checking that the fuse/connection that is normally near to the + terminal at the starter battery for the cable that goes to the rear of EBL is ok. The indicator light on a Vanbitz battery master will still illuminate even if the starter battery has no connection to it and it may be that your CSB2 unit is the same

Thanks for that Geoff, or Dee?,

That was to be my next job as I know from memory that the positive connection for the van battery is not just a clamp. It's festooned with M6 bolt threads for adding various wires, (Goodness what else could be attached) On looking at FleaBay last night, there was evidence that there were a couple of gert big fuses.

Unfortunately, it was a lovely day today and I was recruited into the, 'Let's remove the leaves and prune the apple trees' day.
I've got a feeling that the Sun will shine again tomorrow.

Re your comment about the indicator light. It illuminates even after the Sun has gone down, only going out when the voltage on the Hab. batteries drops down under 13.6v. I'm only hoping that the situation is as you remark, ie. a fuse has blown near to the van battery.

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[GeoffnDee]

If you still have access to the rear of the EBL and have a meter or test light you could check if power is getting to the starter battery terminal on the EBL. which would confirm a good fuse/connection at the starter battery (or not)

 

[Emmit]

You are right of course and when I find or remember where the 'Safe Place' is where I put the multimeter I'll be in a position to do that. Doh!

 

[GeoffnDee]

,
If there is 12v or more when tested at the EBL it would be worth checking that the wires going into the EBL terminals from the CBS2 are making a good contact and that the terminal fixing screws are not just clamping the outer covering of one of the wires instead of the actual wire.

 

[Emmit]

SUCCESS!!!

Today, armed with a multimeter, (embarrassment prevents me pushing a custard pie in my own face) because the bl**dy thing was front and centre in my eye line this afternoon.

Anyway, following on with excellent advice from GeoffnDee I disconnected the CBE from the van battery terminal. I tightened up the terminal and there was nothing on the multimeter.
I then wrestled the chair out of the footwell giving access to the Van battery and this is what I found;

One ever so slightly bu&&ered (technical term) 50amp fuse.
Once the fuse was obtained and inserted, I replaced the CBE terminal into the back of the electro bloc and this was the result on the panel.

A big thanks to anyone on here that has chipped in and I hope it helps anyone contemplating doing a similar mod.