Brand new MH with 'crappy' gearbox. (1 Viewer)

[Lenny HB]

We’ve got the 2.3 180bhp E6 engine in ours, with the comfortmatic gearbox. So far 2,200 miles on the clock.

It did seem a bit sluggish on hills in the South West this weekend, mainly I think due to the gearbox taking longer to shift down than a normal automatic (say as fitted to the Merc engined MH we had before). But once it had shifted down, it pulled fine albeit it had lost speed first if you see what I mean.

That is what my 150 was like until it had done 3000, using the "up" button helps quite a lot, not needed to use it so much now.

 

[barsteward]

View attachment 193542

 

[EX51SSS]

View attachment 193567

Yes, extremely good but I was getting a MH wheelie but love the pic

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[Dave K]

Hi @Casper46
I collected our van from the local Fiat specialist this weekend, they’ve adjusted the parameters of the gearbox and it drives much better, changes gear when you would expect it now rather than seemingly changing too quickly, reversing is a lot better as well, so far very impressed and it appears to have stopped the kangaroo around gears 2,3 &4, hope you can get yours sorted.
Dave

 

[Casper46]

Thanks Dave,
I will take your post to the garage in the morning, it will save explanations. I will let you know how I get on.

 

[Casper46]

Hi @Casper46
I collected our van from the local Fiat specialist this weekend, they’ve adjusted the parameters of the gearbox and it drives much better, changes gear when you would expect it now rather than seemingly changing too quickly, reversing is a lot better as well, so far very impressed and it appears to have stopped the kangaroo around gears 2,3 &4, hope you can get yours sorted.
Dave

We took the MH to the Fiat garage this morning. It had little weight in it, as we expected them to keep it for a couple of days. It ran a lot better empty.

The workshop manager took for for a drive, he could not understand what our problem was, and said that it was running fine. Even when loaded we rarely travel with a lot of weight in as we are usually travelling between the house in France and Yorkshire, so we have most things that we need at either end.

He told us that due to the restrictions on the engines that are required to reach Euro 6 it made the engines very under powered, and we should expect to find a lack of power when we loaded the MH. Lack of power causes the gearbox to have to work a lot harder, therefore we will get lumpy (my word) gear changes.

I showed him Daves posting and he said that as far as he is concerned that was remapping and Fiat would not allow them to do it. It looks like I need a trip to the garage that Dave uses, as it sounds like they have listened to his problems and sorted them.
Another option is to find someone local and have it remapped, but that would mean that we would be without a warranty.

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[G7UXG]

He told us that due to the restrictions on the engines that are required to reach Euro 6 it made the engines very under powered, and we should expect to find a lack of power when we loaded the MH. Lack of power causes the gearbox to have to work a lot harder, therefore we will get lumpy (my word) gear changes.

Isn't 180hp and 400nm of torque the same whether it's a 3 litre or a 2.3? And isn't that measured at the crankshaft? If so, how does Euro 6 affect power?

As for the gearbox, I'd expect it to change smoothly under any load.

My Carthago is a Euro 5 3 litre Comfortmatic, 2016 model but registered in March 2017. The comfortmatic side of things packed up in France in June 2017 with 2500 miles on the clock.

(It's not my thread but I posted my woes on it.)
https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/comfortmatic-gearbox-issue-fact-or-fallacy.154739/

The gearbox changes smoothly through all gears and I run at about 4150kgs. My only complaint is that when it's cold, and occasionally when it's warm, as you press the accelerator and the clutch engages, it doesn't always know whether to engage or not and I get the effect of (if it were a manual clutch) clutch up, clutch down, clutch up, clutch down. Seems to be better if you commit to the throttle and press it a bit more.

If you read the above thread you'll see that pretty much everything to do with the Comfortmatic was replaced on mine, including the hydraulic block (at about £2500 just for the part). It had/has the same characteristics before and after the repair and replacement parts. It's now done more miles since the repair than before it broke down.

Oh, and I get vibration (wouldn't call it judder) when reversing but that seems pretty standard and has been the case on all of my 3 litre motorhomes (2 autos and a manual).

Might be worth seeking a second opinion from another dealer. Take it when fully loaded if that's when the problems occur.

Mike

 

[Dave K]

We took the MH to the Fiat garage this morning. It had little weight in it, as we expected them to keep it for a couple of days. It ran a lot better empty.

The workshop manager took for for a drive, he could not understand what our problem was, and said that it was running fine. Even when loaded we rarely travel with a lot of weight in as we are usually travelling between the house in France and Yorkshire, so we have most things that we need at either end.

He told us that due to the restrictions on the engines that are required to reach Euro 6 it made the engines very under powered, and we should expect to find a lack of power when we loaded the MH. Lack of power causes the gearbox to have to work a lot harder, therefore we will get lumpy (my word) gear changes.

I showed him Daves posting and he said that as far as he is concerned that was remapping and Fiat would not allow them to do it. It looks like I need a trip to the garage that Dave uses, as it sounds like they have listened to his problems and sorted them.
Another option is to find someone local and have it remapped, but that would mean that we would be without a warranty.

It's definitely not remapped, they took my van out the day after I dropped it off and it did hesitate as I had described, they told me they adjusted the parameters of the gearbox and test drove another 3 or 4 times, I know this because I have a MetaTrak non starter app from Vanbitz and this details every journey the van does. The van isn't any quicker it just appears to change both up and down through the gears at a more realistic speed, I don't know what yours is like but mine was going up through the gears too quickly and was changing down too slowly. If it helps I took mine to Chelston in Welllington, Somerset

 

[TheCaller]

I collected our van from the local Fiat specialist this weekend, they’ve adjusted the parameters of the gearbox and it drives much better, changes gear when you would expect it now rather than seemingly changing too quickly

That's interesting. I wouldn't mind having the parameters on mine changed a bit. On a light throttle, it changes up too soon & is often then left labouring in the next gear up. Not good for the drive train in general & very bad for a dual-mass flywheel.

I know some people just leave it with the 'UP' hill climb button permanantly selected, but it's not the proper answer.

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[peterc10]

The van isn't any quicker it just appears to change both up and down through the gears at a more realistic speed, I don't know what yours is like but mine was going up through the gears too quickly and was changing down too slowly. If it helps I took mine to Chelston in Welllington, Somerset

Sounds like they just pressed the "up" button on the dash. That changes up at higher revs. I have it set like that in order to save too much torque going through the clutch (on the advice of @Techno ).

 

[100brian]

We took the MH to the Fiat garage this morning. It had little weight in it, as we expected them to keep it for a couple of days. It ran a lot better empty.

The workshop manager took for for a drive, he could not understand what our problem was, and said that it was running fine. Even when loaded we rarely travel with a lot of weight in as we are usually travelling between the house in France and Yorkshire, so we have most things that we need at either end.

He told us that due to the restrictions on the engines that are required to reach Euro 6 it made the engines very under powered, and we should expect to find a lack of power when we loaded the MH. Lack of power causes the gearbox to have to work a lot harder, therefore we will get lumpy (my word) gear changes.

I showed him Daves posting and he said that as far as he is concerned that was remapping and Fiat would not allow them to do it. It looks like I need a trip to the garage that Dave uses, as it sounds like they have listened to his problems and sorted them.
Another option is to find someone local and have it remapped, but that would mean that we would be without a warranty.

Why not take the manager out with you driving and point out the faults

 

[Casper46]

It's definitely not remapped, they took my van out the day after I dropped it off and it did hesitate as I had described, they told me they adjusted the parameters of the gearbox and test drove another 3 or 4 times, I know this because I have a MetaTrak non starter app from Vanbitz and this details every journey the van does. The van isn't any quicker it just appears to change both up and down through the gears at a more realistic speed, I don't know what yours is like but mine was going up through the gears too quickly and was changing down too slowly. If it helps I took mine to Chelston in Welllington, Somerset

Thanks,
I did not think that a Fiat dealership would remapp it. I will speak to Fiat customer services to see what can be done. They did contact me when we were struggling with the MH in France and offered to help if needed.

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[gus-lopez]

Thanks,
I did not think that a Fiat dealership would remapp it. I will speak to Fiat customer services to see what can be done. They did contact me when we were struggling with the MH in France and offered to help if needed.

best idea

 

[Casper46]

I was going to leave my update until I had an outcome to our problem, BUT I have just read Bernies post re. his dash light problem and the goings on with the York garage.

After our wasted journey to Doncaster we talked to Fiat in Italy, and they arranged for the MH to go to a different dealer to be looked at. We loaded the MH with bags of sand and full water tanks so that it was at full running weight and took it to York on Thursday, calling at a weighbridge en route. We obviously met Mr Happy as when we tried to explain our problems, his comment was 'you get what you pay for', for some reason hubby did not whap him. The receptionist is lovely and eventually we met the service manager who is very helpful.

As it was my birthday we left the MH at the garage and drove to Northallerton for lunch. As we finished lunch I got a phone call (hopefully an update on the ongoing problem). The MH has less than 2000 miles on it, and they had dropped an axle stand on it. Accidents happen and it is no use ranting about it, they took full responsibility and have sent it to their depot at Billingham, both to repair the damage, and to plug it into a computer that will connect it to the factory, so it can be checked re. the running problems.
When it got to Billingham they obviously have sensible body shop staff, as they refused to touch it and are waiting to send it to a proper motorhome body shop. We have told them that we would like it to go to DMR at Bawtry, we will chase them again on Monday to find out what is happening.
At least we got a nice lunch and a trip to Sam Turners in Northallerton, we have not been there since we retired, and would love to live nearer, as it is a lovely County Town.

Hey Ho what does not break you makes you stronger, or that is what I keep telling myself. There are people in the world dying from lack of food and being killed by evil governments, so our problems are but a speck in the ocean.

 

[martin2603]

Having gone from the 3 litre to the 2.3 180 I had the same experience all be it with a manual box. They seem to lack power in the lower rev band. It develops 400ntm from 1500 to 3500rpm, but you do not get up to 150bhp until well over 2500 rpm . Having modified the driving style, ie giving it more rpm to keep it in the best power band it does perform better. The local Fiat Proff fitter says all the Euro 6 engines are the same due to the emissions changes with the engines. By keeping the revs up higher you will keep the gasses burning off better and save it clogging up the erg valve and filters.

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[tacr2man]

A lot of these more "modern" engines seem to need to be driven hard , and as the base vehicles are commercials that is the life they normally get , unlike to cosseting they get in Motorhome guise .

 

[CazPaul]

Having gone from the 3 litre to the 2.3 180 I had the same experience all be it with a manual box. They seem to lack power in the lower rev band. It develops 400ntm from 1500 to 3500rpm, but you do not get up to 150bhp until well over 2500 rpm . Having modified the driving style, ie giving it more rpm to keep it in the best power band it does perform better. The local Fiat Proff fitter says all the Euro 6 engines are the same due to the emissions changes with the engines. By keeping the revs up higher you will keep the gasses burning off better and save it clogging up the erg valve and filters.

This is the main reason why we are looking for a Peugeot or Citroen new panel van to convert. Prefer the SCR technology adblue as no issues with egr system.

 

[Just smiffy]

I was going to leave my update until I had an outcome to our problem, BUT I have just read Bernies post re. his dash light problem and the goings on with the York garage.

After our wasted journey to Doncaster we talked to Fiat in Italy, and they arranged for the MH to go to a different dealer to be looked at. We loaded the MH with bags of sand and full water tanks so that it was at full running weight and took it to York on Thursday, calling at a weighbridge en route. We obviously met Mr Happy as when we tried to explain our problems, his comment was 'you get what you pay for', for some reason hubby did not whap him. The receptionist is lovely and eventually we met the service manager who is very helpful.

As it was my birthday we left the MH at the garage and drove to Northallerton for lunch. As we finished lunch I got a phone call (hopefully an update on the ongoing problem). The MH has less than 2000 miles on it, and they had dropped an axle stand on it. Accidents happen and it is no use ranting about it, they took full responsibility and have sent it to their depot at Billingham, both to repair the damage, and to plug it into a computer that will connect it to the factory, so it can be checked re. the running problems.
When it got to Billingham they obviously have sensible body shop staff, as they refused to touch it and are waiting to send it to a proper motorhome body shop. We have told them that we would like it to go to DMR at Bawtry, we will chase them again on Monday to find out what is happening.
At least we got a nice lunch and a trip to Sam Turners in Northallerton, we have not been there since we retired, and would love to live nearer, as it is a lovely County Town.

Hey Ho what does not break you makes you stronger, or that is what I keep telling myself. There are people in the world dying from lack of food and being killed by evil governments, so our problems are but a speck in the ocean.

I feel for you... sounds like you have my luck...

Chin up....

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[PhilG]

What we are seeing here is the chasing of emissions killing the engine performance, and then the addition of an Auto gearbox making things worse.

Irrespective of the HP and Torque figures , that any given engine makes, you have to understand how it makes that power. Small capacity , turbo engines can make power on a graph , but couple that to an auto gearbox and then weigh it up, and you are asking for trouble.

The older bigger JTD engines make their power and torque at much lower revs than the newer 2.3 units, and the problem is that coupling that to an Auto( or comfortmatic , call it what you will) means that just as you get to the bit of the HP and Torque you brochure tells you about, it changes up, and drops off the turbo, and falls on its arse.

And every kilo you put in it makes it worse, so it will never be as good as the one you test drive which will be empty bar for you and the sales guy.

All small capacity Automatics are rubbish .. period. Any car below 1600cc with an auto box is a waste of time, a minimum of 2L is needed to give the power to use the engine, rather than the transmission to generate speed. The 1.8 BMW we just bought is an Auto , and it wouldnt pull a greasy stick out of a dogs arse, its up and down the box for fun and is horrible, whereas the 2.5 straight six one is lovely, you just waft along, minding your own business, enjoying the ride.

If you are going to buy an underpowered MH that has the aero of a house, fill it with stuff up to and over its weight limit ,and then put an Auto box in it, this is what you get , unfortunately.

The engines are designed to pass a test of what comes out of the exhaust, not to actually do what they are supposed to do, which is move stuff from A to B .

Lots of car manufacturers have moved to 3 Cyl engines, for the small stuff because they produced more inertia at lower revs than a 4cyl motor, so they arent killed for acceleration like a 4 trying to get through Euro 6 .

There is no substitute for capacity ever.

 

[CazPaul]

''The engines are designed to pass a test of what comes out of the exhaust, not to actually do what they are supposed to do, which is move stuff from A to B''

I don't think the engine was designed to pass the emission test, that is part of the problem, the Fiat 2.3 is a good engine, its what they have had to do to it to meet the standards that's the problem. That's why all other commercial manufacturers have gone over to SCR technology.

 

[Lot lover]

There is no substitute for capacity ever.

How true, a good big one will always beat a good little one.

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[Lot lover]

Having read this and other threads on the unreliability of new MHs our decision to spend a lot less on a 1999 version does not seem such a bad idea though I concede that there are doubtless many people who are happy (or don't wish to publicly admit that they are not) with their new vehicles.

 

[pyro]

Hope you get this sorted out

As people advised at the time, we got an E5+ as the last of the reliable ones (until they iron out all the bugs on the E6, at least)

Fiat 2.3 130, 6M manual box Chausson with 3.4T laden, and with outstanding pull

 

[PhilG]

''The engines are designed to pass a test of what comes out of the exhaust, not to actually do what they are supposed to do, which is move stuff from A to B''

I don't think the engine was designed to pass the emission test, that is part of the problem, the Fiat 2.3 is a good engine, its what they have had to do to it to meet the standards that's the problem. That's why all other commercial manufacturers have gone over to SCR technology.

Maybe, but it doesnt alter the fact that 2.3 Litres is not enough power to shift a 3.5t brick , irrespective of transmission.

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[pyro]

Fiat 2.3 130, 6M manual box Chausson with 3.4T laden, and with outstanding pull

The operative terms are surely a) manual box, b) no E6 shenanigans ?

Conversely, my expectations are lower of my own 3,4T brick. I would rank hill climb and general performance as not being dissimilar to a 1.4 non-turbo petrol loan vehicle I recently had use of.

 

[Teuchter]

Maybe, but it doesnt alter the fact that 2.3 Litres is not enough power to shift a 3.5t brick , irrespective of transmission.

We had a Knaus/Fiat 2.3 150 comfortmatic euro 5 for 2 years - did 16000 miles fully laden including bikes, it had plenty of power and never faltered

 

[PhilG]

The operative terms are surely a) manual box, b) no E6 shenanigans ?

Conversely, my expectations are lower of my own 3,4T brick. I would rank hill climb and general performance as not being dissimilar to a 1.4 non-turbo petrol loan vehicle I recently had use of.

I think that is the issue... expectation.

Also , the proliferation of 6 speed gearboxes, like its some kind of performance advantage... no, they have to put 6 in because the usable power it that piss poor , that you are forever changing, which is why people want an auto, but they are coupling it to the same motor , which is why its less than stellar.

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[Lot lover]

We had a Knaus/Fiat 2.3 150 comfortmatic euro 5 for 2 years - did 16000 miles fully laden including bikes, it had plenty of power and never faltered

That says it all for me, 16000 miles in 2 years and has not broken down. Wow !!

 

[Teuchter]

That says it all for me, 16000 miles in 2 years and has not broken down. Wow !!

Not quite sure how to take this @Lot lover, sorry if you found my post not to your liking!

Having read lots of posts criticizing Fiat 2.3 comfortmatics in this thread I just thought I would share my (albeit fairly limited) experience of owning a van with said engine/box configuration and that I found it powerful enough.

I was not implying that 16000 miles in 2 years was a particularly good record for a auto/semi auto box