Brake vacuum pump question (1 Viewer)

[Wildbill]

Appreciate your comment. What is the correct position for the pump? If it's not an imposition, do you have a picture / photo of the correct position?

The correct position is bolts evanly threaded it's only 2x13 mm nuts on the stud's in do then thake it off line up the parts and make sure its not on the piss when you put it on
Bill

 

[Wildbill]

Look at this closely you will see it's on the piss as that say in the business
Not hard to see that
I think you should try tightening the bottom one but don't put to much force on it but I should pull in losen top one a bit it will hep it to line up.
Regards bill

 

[HotBlue]

Look at this closely you will see it's on the piss as that say in the business
Not hard to see that
I think you should try tightening the bottom one but don't put to much force on it but I should pull in losen top one a bit it will hep it to line up.
Regards bill
View attachment 116672

Hi Bill, take your point but it's a case of camera angle - I looked at it proper side on and the flange is parallel to the engine block with no gaps - but appreciate the advice. I will post some pictures of the part, shortly. In the meanwhile, as you're running late have a couple of pints "on me" and enjoy the day. Thanks for all your help.

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[HotBlue]

I hope I'm not being a pain, but I have included another 4 pictures. 2 are looking into the crank shaft (1 is an enlargement) and the other 2 are the top of the actual pump, showing the nipple. The nicks on the rectangular part have been there for over a year - when I first got it. It should be clear what the adaptor that I need is.
Many thanks, HotBlue.

 

[pappajohn]

I see how it fits now.
the coupler is obviously sacrificial and has either been left out or at some point the pump has locked up destroying the coupler thus saving both camshaft end and the pump spindle.

I still think you'll have one hell of a job locating one.

 

[jockaneezer]

Thinking outside the box, you could always fit a stand alone electric vacuum pump, one on ebay off an Audi A6 for £70, probably get one cheaper from a scrapyard ?

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[Wildbill]

The nicks are caused by miss alignment I she no reason for it not to work if correctly installed
Make sure the slots are lined up might be a good idea to dress up the coupling with a file
Like a commented on previous reply you only have 2mm max between correctly engaged and damaging it looks like later has hapend but you might get away with it if you dress up both male and female parts
Bill
Bill

 

[Mickrik]

If all else fails

try here

http://www.parts.loc8apart.co.uk/nav/auto-part/Fiat/Ducato/Vacuum-Pumps.php

 

[tonyidle]

If you run out of options for that pump there are alternators with vacuum pumps built on the end that would replace it.

Have you checked camshaft end float? It doesn't look to me as though any thing is missing?

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[HotBlue]

If you run out of options for that pump there are alternators with vacuum pumps built on the end that would replace it.

Have you checked camshaft end float? It doesn't look to me as though any thing is missing?

I haven't. What will that do for me? Are you possibly suggesting that I do not need an adaptor?

 

[buttons]

Hi and Welcome.......

 

[DBK]

I agree with Bill, I don't think anything is missing, it just not connecting.

Take a look at this blow up:

The spigot/key has been damaged by being tightened when the slot was not properly aligned. This may have pushed the shaft back in which case a new pump is needed. Otherwise, clean it up as Bill suggested and refit properly.

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[tonyidle]

I haven't. What will that do for me? Are you possibly suggesting that I do not need an adaptor?

It looks to me like the damaged part is the drive dog. If I'm correct there are only two reasons why it's damaged / not driving: either the pump isn't fitted properly; or the camshaft end float is excessive allowing it to move away from the pump. The damage will not affect operation once it is correctly engaged with the end of the camshaft. Assuming the camshaft hasn't / can't move you should be able to detect engagement before the pump contacts its mounting face. You should also be able to engage the pump fully by hand before tightening the fasteners - in other words the fasteners MUST NOT be used to pull the pump into position.

The reason I believe an adaptor is not needed (apart from my first sentence above) is that the dimensions of the drive dog appear to match those of the slot in the camshaft thus leaving no need (and no room) for any adaptor.

 

[mitzimad]

i agree its been bolted up with the drive not aligned which is why it wasnt sitting straight

 

[HotBlue]

I've taken a whole slew of measurements and they show that the pump drive dog will not engage in the rotating part of the cam-shaft. It seems that either I need an adapter or I have the wrong pump! Any clues on this?
HotBlue.

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[Flamenca]

Is this the pump? New, complete, delivered from Germany for £62.88

Broken Link Removed

 

[unimog]

Not sure about your engine but similar engines that I have worked on have a fibre coupling between pump and cam shaft as a weak link in case the vacuum pump seizes , it was designed to break instead of breaking the cam belt and wrecking the engine .They could easily be made out or material such as carp which has many uses in engineering and was used for timing gears etc . Maybe a local engineering firm could make one for yo. Mike

 

[pappajohn]

I haven't. What will that do for me? Are you possibly suggesting that I do not need an adaptor?

I would say definitely need an adaptor.
The small oblong bar looks the same width as the centered hole in the end of the cam and has been rubbing on the cam.
The bar doesn't fit directly into the cam recesses.
The pressed metal adaptor extends the steel bar to fit in the recesses in the camshaft.
If the pump shaft locks up for any reason the ADAPTOR is destroyed but the cam can still turn around the bar without breaking the pump shaft

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[tonyidle]

I've taken a whole slew of measurements and they show that the pump drive dog will not engage in the rotating part of the cam-shaft. It seems that either I need an adapter or I have the wrong pump! Any clues on this?
HotBlue.

If the gap between the two parts provides room for an adapter then I suspect you are correct. Which engine is it by the way?

 

[HotBlue]

Thanks unimog. Based on this description, does anyone have such a part to sell me? Be useful to know before I go and have one made.
Many thanks, HotBlue.

 

[HotBlue]

Is this the pump? New, complete, delivered from Germany for £62.88

Broken Link Removed

Thanks. The dog part doesn't look high enough to fit in the gap on the cam-shaft to make it rotate.

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[HotBlue]

If the gap between the two parts provides room for an adapter then I suspect you are correct. Which engine is it by the way?

It's a 1993 1.9l diesel engine in the camper van.

 

[pappajohn]

This could go on forever.

Look at the pic of the pump shaft.
Note the width of the square bar in relation to the shaft end with the O ring.

Now look at the hole in the camshaft and note where the drive grooves are located in relation to the hole where the pump shaft fits...and the O ring forms an oil seal inside the camshaft.

As it is now the drive dogs are smaller than the camshaft recesses and can't possibly drive the pump as the dogs simply aren't long enough without an adaptor.
If it was designed to drive the pump without an adaptor the camshaft end would be flat with two notches for the pump drive dogs to fit in, it would not have a circular recess in the cam....there would be no need for it.
The drive dogs are the same diameter as the circular recess.

 

[HotBlue]

This could go on forever.

Look at the pic of the pump shaft.
Note the width of the square bar in relation to the shaft end with the O ring.

Now look at the hole in the camshaft and note where the drive grooves are located in relation to the hole where the pump shaft fits...and the O ring forms an oil seal inside the camshaft.

As it is now the drive dogs are smaller than the camshaft recesses and can't possibly drive the pump as the dogs simply aren't long enough without an adaptor.
If it was designed to drive the pump without an adaptor the camshaft end would be flat with two notches for the pump drive dogs to fit in, it would not have a circular recess in the cam....there would be no need for it.
The drive dogs are the same diameter as the circular recess.
View attachment 117026 View attachment 117027

I Know! Based on all the information gleaned, I now ask the simple question - Does anyone have an adaptor I can buy off them?

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[pappajohn]

I Know! Based on all the information gleaned, I now ask the simple question - Does anyone have an adaptor I can buy off them?

My post was aimed at those saying it doesnt need an adaptor when it plainly does.
You obviously have first hand knowledge as you have the actual parts and can see how it fits.
As someone already suggested maybe an electric pump will be the best option.

 

[HotBlue]

There is, unfortunately, a plan C evolving. I had thought of having a Tufnol coupler made but all the machine shops near me (North London) have gone CNC and no one has lathes or mills. So the new question is, as no one seems to have or know of someone who has such a coupler, I will have to make one myself and I would need access to a lathe and a mill. Is there anyone near London who might have such equipment and be happy to let use them to make a coupler?
All the best, HotBlue.

 

[jockaneezer]

If you can supply an accurate drawing, I'll knock you one up in white nylon if that's any use to you ?

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[HotBlue]

If you can supply an accurate drawing, I'll knock you one up in white nylon if that's any use to you ?

Would that be tough enough with hot oil sloshing around and fair bit of torque? I can produce an AutoCAD drawing if necessary.

 

[taffybloke]

To my eye the T piece on this is larger than on the @HotBlue pump. It certainly extends past the shaft.

Mike

 

[HotBlue]

To my eye the T piece on this is larger than on the @HotBlue pump. It certainly extends past the shaft.

Mike

It's not the width, it's the height - it doesn't go in deep enough to engage with the cam shaft.

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