Boiler and hot water showers

[TobyQuest]

Hi all,

Tested the boiler out for the first time and unfortunately the small pipes than run across it in an S-shape kind of way have cracks in and spray out water. Im guessing it previously froze from the previous owner.
Can these pipes be repaired or is it a case of just need a new boiler installed?
Where best to go in either of these cases?

Also I havent seen much talk about gas boilers on the forum. Does this mean many of you dont have heated showers in your MH, or you heat them some other way. Ideally Im referring to off-grid, not using AC shoreline power to power it in some way.

 

[Odd-no-more]

It needs a new heatexchanger. Like you said most likely frost damage, water heaters news to be drained in the winter. Do you know the make? The job should be done by a Gas Safe registered engineer.

 

[MisterB]

That type of boiler hasnt been used in motoromes for years. You will still find them in statics, boats etc and often on ebay for spares or you could just buy a replacement. The issue would be the flue size but even that can be resolved. Might take a while to find the spare parts. I cant tell from the photo if its the pipes zig zagging around the heat exchanger in whicj case, thats what you need

 

[Odd-no-more]

That type of boiler hasnt been used in motoromes for years. You will still find them in statics, boats etc and often on ebay for spares or you could just buy a replacement. The issue would be the flue size but even that can be resolved. Might take a while to find the spare parts. I cant tell from the photo if its the pipes zig zagging around the heat exchanger in whicj case, thats what you need

The heater in the picture looks like it's flueless it shouldn't be used for a shower it is a sink heater. We have fitted Morco open flued water heaters In statics but I think the flue would not be practical in a MOHO. When I first looked at the picture I thoughtit was balanced flue but I've had another look and it looks flueless. Better to put in something else like a Truma.

 

[TobyQuest]

What is flueless non flueless? It has a shiny metal exhaust on the roof to let it out. Is that what you mean? pic attached. What difference does it make if it heats a shower or a tap?

Is a Truma just a tank with an electric heating element in it? What will it use to heat the water when travelling around?

Whats the cost of a cheap small replacement boiler suitable for a vehicle like mine? Perhaps better value to replace, fix, or switch to a different solution?

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[pappajohn]

Whats the cost of a cheap small replacement boiler suitable for a vehicle like mine

Sorry, but there is no cheap motorhome boiler in existence.
By the time you've bought everything needed, boiler, plumbing, flue, wiring, controller etc, you'll be looking at possibly four figures.

 

[Odd-no-more]

I can't see a flue from the heater, did you remove it?

There are 3 types of water heaters
flueless has no flue at all, should only be used for a single sink, must have ventilation

Open flue has a flue to take products of combustion to outside air, still needs ventilation to replace the air it burns. Not used in modern units.

Room sealed (balance flue) this takes combustion air from outside and discharges combustion products to outside air. Now fitted in most units.

Most MOHO have a stored hot water system these days, with gas and electric heaters.

If your heater has a flue, and you can get a new heatexchanger then as long as it has ventilation it would be ok to carry on using it, but you should have it checked by a Gas Safe registered engineer. The "flue" in your picture didn't look right to me.

Where are you? If you are near Southampton I could have a look for you, to see what you need

 

[Odd-no-more]

Sorry, but there is no cheap motorhome boiler in existence.
By the time you've bought everything needed, boiler, plumbing, flue, wiring, controller etc, you'll be looking at possibly four figures.

Second hand caravan may be a possibility

 

[pappajohn]

I can't see a flue from the heater, did you remove it

The position of the chrome flue vent on the roof doesn't correspond with the boiler position at all unless the boilers on an interior wall.

 

[Odd-no-more]

The position of the chrome flue vent on the roof doesn't correspond with the boiler position at all unless the boilers on an interior wall.

Boiler could be on any wall. It looks like a very old install but the terminal doesn't look right

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[pappajohn]

Agreed, to me it appears to be vented directly out of the front top face of the case. Possibly situated in a cupboard and the chrome roof vent being just that.... A vent.

 

[Reallyretired]

I have had boilers like that in very old motorhomes, usually Morco or Vaillant. I don't think they're still made. Unfortunately they are prone to frost damage as they have to be manually drained, not automatically like a modern one. They must be externally flued because they are instantaneous heaters rated at something like 12Kw and produce a lot of exhaust gases. They are often mounted on the outside of the washroom wall, or in the case of one I had actually in the shower in a cupboard.

Vaillant are still in business making household CH boilers so may be able to help..

 

[Reallyretired]

If you haven't seen much about gas boilers on the forum you must have been looking in the wrong place. Most motorhomes have a combined heater/water heater by Truma or Alde. Lots of threads.

 

[TobyQuest]

It needs a new heatexchanger. Like you said most likely frost damage, water heaters news to be drained in the winter. Do you know the make? The job should be done by a Gas Safe registered engineer.

The make is Paloma

 

[TobyQuest]

The position of the chrome flue vent on the roof doesn't correspond with the boiler position at all unless the boilers on an interior wall.

Yes, the boiler is on an interior wall

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[TobyQuest]

Sorry, but there is no cheap motorhome boiler in existence.
By the time you've bought everything needed, boiler, plumbing, flue, wiring, controller etc, you'll be looking at possibly four figures.

4 figures?! Thats crazy. I found these ones, about £100-200, pretty cheap.

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Plumbing is already done, flue, wiring to some extent probably needs some modification. Am I missing something, seems easier than I thought.

 

[Odd-no-more]

4 figures?! Thats crazy. I found these ones, about £100-200, pretty cheap.

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Plumbing is already done, flue, wiring to some extent probably needs some modification. Am I missing something, seems easier than I thought.

A lot of eBay stuff is advertised in a misleading way. By the time you have the heater and a flue plus terminal and sealing plate the cost may be a lot more than the advertised price. Make sure it has a GC number or a CE number. And check it is suitable for a MOHO. Most of this type are intended for statics. For safety have it commissioned by a Gas Safe engineer.

 

[MisterB]

plenty of palomas on ebay ....... replacement one is £110

my father in law had a 1991 autotrail scout - it definitely came with a factory fitted paloma water heater - so they werent just fitted to statics - though i think it would be unusual now to find them fitted in a motorhome less than 20 years old

 

[mitzimad]

Our old gambler had a vailant multipoint water heater it was in a sealed enclosure with a huge vent in the floor as well as a flue

 

[Lenny HB]

Even with a roof flue when burning it's consuming oxygen from inside the van. For safety reasons they don't fit them any more.
Doesn't look like there is a flue to me.
For safety you should only be fitting a balanced flue unit in a Motorhome, may cost a bit more but how much do you value your life.

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[TobyQuest]

Hmm, there just seems to be a void of information between finding water heaters/boilers for sale and the adverts providing the info abotu whether its suitable.

All the ones Ive seen advertised dont mention whether or not they are suitable for a motorhome and even if they said they did then you guys say I need to check if its a balanced flue, CE marked, plus a terminal plate etc.

Will give Vaillant a call tomorrow. Anyone have any details of businesses who supply AND install LPG water heaters to motorhomes?

 

[TheBig1]

your problem stems from your van being built for the japanese domestic market. What is allowed over there has not been for some years in the uk. those old boilers can be potentially lethal. if you do repair it, fit a carbon monoxide alarm and dont take the battery out because it keeps going off

 

[MisterB]

if its a water heater and not a central heating boiler then the amount of time it will be running will be minimal, i am not advocating anything dangerous as it came with the unit already fitted. i would make sure that none of the floor vents are blocked and if i was overly concerned i would consider putting an additional vent in close proximity. you could do that by using ducting up to the water heater and running from the floor - where you could install an additional floor vent, all this is based on it actually having a roof vent installed which is easy to check, even if it means a bit of water leaking whn you fire it up. you should also check that there is a proper terminal fitted - thats the 'chimney pot' on top of the 'chimney' (flue) the terminal allows the products of combustion to escape and not be blown back down agin into the van during high winds etc.

it probably burns less lpg than a mobile gas heater does or an unflued gas heater would and probably produces less fumes, but the important thing is to make sure that there is an air (oxygen) supply into the van at all times the water heater would be in use.

what about using an lpg gas hob or cooker - do they have flues? yet some people dont think twice about standing over a hob for ten minutes and cooking? where do the products of combustion go? would a water heater running for a minute or two, that actually has a dedicated flue be any more dangerous?

lets face it youre not going to go to bed and leave the hot water tap running are you!

 

[MisterB]

Even with a roof flue when burning it's consuming oxygen from inside the van. For safety reasons they don't fit them any more.

how do you know its for safety reasons? we have a static with a hot water and heating boiler in one. its massive so would take up far too much room. so perhaps the designers came up with a much more compact unit that they could flue easily through the body (less chance of leaks) and hide it away in a cupboard, under a bed etc...... that makes more sense. as for it using up oxygen, does it use up more oxygen than cooking on an lpg cooker or hob ?

i understand your comments and why you think they are valid, but the water heater was deemed safe when it was fitted, my view is that it is still safe today (subject to the flue and terminal being ok and it burning at the right pressure - which is why its best to get a gas safe person to install and check it) and there being a flow of air (oxygen) into the van at all times.

the type of water heater (paloma) are widely used on older narrow boats (ive seen loads of them) basically because they are very simple and foolproof - so long as you drain them down in the winter.

having said that, if you can find any legislation anywhere that specifically states that such installations are dangerous, then i bow to your better knowledge.

 

[mitzimad]

if its a water heater and not a central heating boiler then the amount of time it will be running will be minimal, i am not advocating anything dangerous as it came with the unit already fitted. i would make sure that none of the floor vents are blocked and if i was overly concerned i would consider putting an additional vent in close proximity. you could do that by using ducting up to the water heater and running from the floor - where you could install an additional floor vent, all this is based on it actually having a roof vent installed which is easy to check, even if it means a bit of water leaking whn you fire it up. you should also check that there is a proper terminal fitted - thats the 'chimney pot' on top of the 'chimney' (flue) the terminal allows the products of combustion to escape and not be blown back down agin into the van during high winds etc.

it probably burns less lpg than a mobile gas heater does or an unflued gas heater would and probably produces less fumes, but the important thing is to make sure that there is an air (oxygen) supply into the van at all times the water heater would be in use.

what about using an lpg gas hob or cooker - do they have flues? yet some people dont think twice about standing over a hob for ten minutes and cooking? where do the products of combustion go? would a water heater running for a minute or two, that actually has a dedicated flue be any more dangerous?

lets face it youre not going to go to bed and leave the hot water tap running are you!

out put of a cooker 4kw output of a water heater 24kw which do you tink uses the most gas?

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[mitzimad]

we used to put flued water heaters in bathrooms but they were killing to many people and now we dont

 

[MisterB]

out put of a cooker 4kw output of a water heater 24kw which do you tink uses the most gas?

4kw per hour with 30 mins use = 2kw
24kw per hour (using your figures) for 2 minutes (long enough to fill a sink) = 0.8kw

during which time the cooker would have used up far more oxygen (using stoichiometric formula principles)

ermmmmmm?? .....

i am not trying to tell people they are wrong in being wary and wanting to be safe, i clearly stated that the installation would need to be checked by a gas safe engineer and if they say its safe then it is!

even exgasman didnt say NO NO dont do it, he gave a reasoned approach and how to do it and to make sure it was safely installed

 

[pappajohn]

4 figures?! Thats crazy. I found these ones, about £100-200, pretty cheap.

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Plumbing is already done, flue, wiring to some extent probably needs some modification. Am I missing something, seems easier than I thought.

So instead of worrying about fixing something from the arc buy a replacement from the arc for £200.

My price was referring to a modern, safe, efficient motorhome boiler and modern controls.

 

[Odd-no-more]

how do you know its for safety reasons? we have a static with a hot water and heating boiler in one. its massive so would take up far too much room. so perhaps the designers came up with a much more compact unit that they could flue easily through the body (less chance of leaks) and hide it away in a cupboard, under a bed etc...... that makes more sense. as for it using up oxygen, does it use up more oxygen than cooking on an lpg cooker or hob ?

i understand your comments and why you think they are valid, but the water heater was deemed safe when it was fitted, my view is that it is still safe today (subject to the flue and terminal being ok and it burning at the right pressure - which is why its best to get a gas safe person to install and check it) and there being a flow of air (oxygen) into the van at all times.

the type of water heater (paloma) are widely used on older narrow boats (ive seen loads of them) basically because they are very simple and foolproof - so long as you drain them down in the winter.

having said that, if you can find any legislation anywhere that specifically states that such installations are dangerous, then i bow to your better knowledge.

How fast does a narrow boat travel? Can it have a taller flue?

 

[TobyQuest]

UPDATE: A local plumber came round to have a look today. Together we both took the boiler off and took it apart, then he soldered the 2 cracks good, we put it all back together again, mounted it, connected it and it works fine
£70
I dont think its as serious as some of you make out. The van is not an air tight box. Oxygen will always be coming in from the roof vent/ where the electric cables go to the battery in the belly locker and many other draughtly places. When cooking inside ill have the door open or the extractor fan on.
I will get a carbon monoxide alarm, theyre a good idea.

Pretty much everyone has open/close valves for the gas anyway right. Turn it on for a shower, then turn it off. No drama.

Im really happy to have hot water though. Makes such a difference for a morning shower