Before a heated argument starts (1 Viewer)

[Ambilkate]

Hi Graham & Jill, good to see you posting. Thanks for the info x Love from us three xxx

 

[Teuchter]

@Teuchter please note that as others have pointed out I was wrong.

?????? I haven't posted in this thread

That is until now

 

[mitzimad]

just declare your selves as travellers and the law doesnt apply might be more authentic if you can dump some rubish around the site

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[CWH]

?????? I haven't posted in this thread

That is until now

You (or someone posing as you!) rated my previous post 'informative' - just letting you know it was incorrect

 

[jezport]

The problem Bill is if I have been asked to organise a rally at a pub somewhere on behalf of a FB group then I would want to know that its legal. Which its not. Another reason why I asked.

The pub would have the required business insurance. The vans should have their own and third party insurance. Plus personally I do have year long travel insurance.

Just be careful what you imply or offer when posting about the meet. Call it a "get together" at a mutually arranged date, send an email to the landlord asking for permission for you to hold a "get together" where you park on his carpark and keep the reply.

Just like booking a restaurant for a large group of friends really.

 

[GJH]

The pub would have the required business insurance. The vans should have their own and third party insurance. Plus personally I do have year long travel insurance.

Would it have the required insurance though? Insurance typically covers specified activities. If running a caravan site is not one of those activities then the business and/or public liability insurance may well not be covered.

Just be careful what you imply or offer when posting about the meet. Call it a "get together" at a mutually arranged date, send an email to the landlord asking for permission for you to hold a "get together" where you park on his carpark and keep the reply.

It doesn't matter what you call it, the 1960 Act still applies and the landlord would be liable to a fine for running an unlicensed caravan site.

Just like booking a restaurant for a large group of friends really.

Of course it isn't. Providing food is part of the normal, legal, business of a restaurant. Running an unlicensed caravan site isn't part of anyone's legal business.

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[Teuchter]

You (or someone posing as you!) rated my previous post 'informative' - just letting you know it was incorrect

Thanks for clearing that up

I initially thought that I had "opened my mouth & put my foot in it" somewhere along the line - an occurrence not all that rare in my case!!

 

[CWH]

I initially thought that I had "opened my mouth & put my foot in it" somewhere along the line - an occurrence not all that rare in my case!!

No, 'twere ME placing MY foot in MY mouth - also not so rare a happening (but with more severe consequences as I get older and more arthriticky )

 

[jezport]

Would it have the required insurance though? Insurance typically covers specified activities. If running a caravan site is not one of those activities then the business and/or public liability insurance may well not be covered.

It doesn't matter what you call it, the 1960 Act still applies and the landlord would be liable to a fine for running an unlicensed caravan site.

Of course it isn't. Providing food is part of the normal, legal, business of a restaurant. Running an unlicensed caravan site isn't part of anyone's legal business.

They are not running a caravan site, People are just sleeping in their vehicles overnight be it a car or a van , no facilities like water , EHU or waste are being used, no external structures like awnings or tents are being constructed. So unless there is a particular exclusion in the terms of the business insurance then there is no restriction or exclusion. Unless there is some kind of bylaw that restricts sleeping in a vehicle overnight on the pubs private car park then it is legal.

Are you breaking the law if you sleep overnight in your van or car at home? I think not.

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[GJH]

They are not running a caravan site, People are just sleeping in their vehicles overnight be it a car or a van , no facilities like water , EHU or waste are being used, no external structures like awnings or tents are being constructed. So unless there is a particular exclusion in the terms of the business insurance then there is no restriction or exclusion. Unless there is some kind of bylaw that restricts sleeping in a vehicle overnight on the pubs private car park then it is legal.

Are you breaking the law if you sleep overnight in your van or car at home? I think not.

No. It is not legal. See Here.

S1(4) of the 1960 Act defines a “caravan site” as “land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed”. Therefore, as soon as anyone brings a caravan (including a motorhome/motor caravan/camper van) onto a piece of land for the purpose of human habitation (rather than simply parking or storage) the land becomes a caravan site. It doesn't matter what the usual use of the land is (e.g. drive/garden, pub car park, farmyard, field). Neither does it matter what description (e.g. stopover, nightstop) is applied to the land; by virtue of S1(4) of the Act it is a caravan site as far as the law is concerned.
The Act prohibits use of land as a caravan site unless an appropriate licence is held or one of the conditions in the First Schedule to the Act is met.

Sleeping in the van is an example of "human habitation".

Sleeping in your van at home will normally be covered by Exemption 1 so it is not comparable to a pub car park.

 

[jezport]

No. It is not legal. See Here.

S1(4) of the 1960 Act defines a “caravan site” as “land on which a caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation and land which is used in conjunction with land on which a caravan is so stationed”. Therefore, as soon as anyone brings a caravan (including a motorhome/motor caravan/camper van) onto a piece of land for the purpose of human habitation (rather than simply parking or storage) the land becomes a caravan site. It doesn't matter what the usual use of the land is (e.g. drive/garden, pub car park, farmyard, field). Neither does it matter what description (e.g. stopover, nightstop) is applied to the land; by virtue of S1(4) of the Act it is a caravan site as far as the law is concerned.
The Act prohibits use of land as a caravan site unless an appropriate licence is held or one of the conditions in the First Schedule to the Act is met.

Sleeping in the van is an example of "human habitation".

Sleeping in your van at home will normally be covered by Exemption 1 so it is not comparable to a pub car park.

So you are saying that Britstops are all illegal.
I best not fall asleep in my car when it's parked as I would be committing the offence of camping.

 

[GJH]

So you are saying that Britstops are all illegal.
I best not fall asleep in my car when it's parked as I would be committing the offence of camping.

It might help if you read posts properly.

Look again at what I said on Friday (post #55 above).
The fact that an occupier of land is a member of Britstops makes no difference. Britstops is not on the list of Organisations exempted under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 as of 3rd May 2018 so can not issue exemption certificates to 5 van sites and can not organise events using the exemptions in paragraph 6 and 4. The restrictions in the paragraph 2 exemption apply just as much to Britstops hosts as to anyone else.
Thus, if a Britstops host does not comply with the restrictions in paragraph 2 then, yes, the host is acting illegally and liable to be fined.

Also look again at post #70 (which you have just quoted).
S1(4) of the 1960 Act defines a “caravan site” as “land on which a caravan is stationed....................
The clue is in the word caravan. The Act does not apply to sleeping in cars.

It doesn't matter how obtuse you try to be. The legislation is perfectly clear.

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[Southdowners]

Does it apply to motorhomes then?

I can't see anything in the act that states that the law concerning caravans applies to motorhomes, campervans, etc.

Could it be, like the aires, that caravans are considered separately in law?

 

[Gellyneck]

Duplicate

 

[irnbru]

Guys this thread is 10 months old and Graham @GJH has now replied with facts. It was his job so he does know the inside outside info so lets leave this thread now before it become stupid bickering.

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[Gellyneck]

Does it apply to motorhomes then?

I can't see anything in the act that states that the law concerning caravans applies to motorhomes, campervans, etc.

Could it be, like the aires, that caravans are considered separately in law?

(1)In this Part of this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—
“caravan” means any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted, but does not include—
(a) any railway rolling stock which is for the time being on rails forming part of a railway system, or
(b) any tent;

 

[Southdowners]

Yes, that's what I mean.... a caravan is capable of being moved... but only by the use of another vehicle. It cannot move under its own steam.

A motorhome is self powered - completely different.

I'm sure an Act would list all vehicles encompassed by the word 'caravan'... as far as I can see, it doesn't.

 

[Southdowners]

Guys this thread is 10 months old and Graham @GJH has now replied with facts. It was his job so he does know the inside outside info so lets leave this thread now before it become stupid bickering.

I'm genuinely interested to know whether the Act GJH is quoting relates to motorhomes. I can't see where it states that it does.

Its not stupid bickering - its discussion surely

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[GJH]

I'm genuinely interested to know whether the Act GJH is quoting relates to motorhomes. I can't see where it states that it does.

Its not stupid bickering - its discussion surely

It's clearly defined in the part of the Act that Gellyneck quoted:
any structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle so designed or adapted,

As irnbru pointed out, these are facts, not speculation.
If anyone wants a second opinion, see this article - about half way down the page, just under the heading Legislation regarding Stopovers.

 

[Dilbert]

Just found this thread, as an avid wild camper and member of britstops I'm confused. So what is difference between a camper van and a truck where the driver sleeps in the cab ? ( ex truck driver )

 

[irnbru]

Just found this thread, as an avid wild camper and member of britstops I'm confused. So what is difference between a camper van and a truck where the driver sleeps in the cab ? ( ex truck driver )

I think its more to do with the numbers stopping overnight thats the difference.

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[GJH]

Just found this thread, as an avid wild camper and member of britstops I'm confused. So what is difference between a camper van and a truck where the driver sleeps in the cab ? ( ex truck driver )

Truck drivers come under different legislation, which recognises the restrictions they work under as regards hours and the fact that they can't always freely choose where they stop.

 

[Southdowners]

I must be having a senior moment but I still can't see it... by that I mean I've looked at Section 1 (4) and I'm reading something different... Oh well!

 

[GJH]

I must be having a senior moment but I still can't see it... by that I mean I've looked at Section 1 (4) and I'm reading something different... Oh well!

A motorhome is a motor vehicle designed or adapted for human habitation. That means it comes within the caravan definition which includes "any motor vehicle so designed or adapted"

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[Steve and Denise]

I am so glad that there are some experts on here as it saves me all that time having to read the boring stuff that can be interpreted In any way that suits.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Does it apply to motorhomes then?

I can't see anything in the act that states that the law concerning caravans applies to motorhomes, campervans, etc.

Could it be, like the aires, that caravans are considered separately in law?

There's no such thing as a motorhome or a campervan in law.

The official designation is motorcaravan and the term caravan is used as a catch all that applies to all types of caravan.

 

[Scout]

Guys this thread is 10 months old and Graham @GJH has now replied with facts. It was his job so he does know the inside outside info so lets leave this thread now before it become stupid bickering.

come on Sandra it was just getting interesting.....

PS please look after Debs if she comes your way soon.....

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[Deleted member 29692]

Guys this thread is 10 months old and Graham @GJH has now replied with facts. It was his job so he does know the inside outside info so lets leave this thread now before it become stupid bickering.

There's loads of scope for stupid bickering yet. We haven't even started on A frames, grey water or poo when you're overnighting in a pub car park

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Has anyone ever been gassed and robbed in a pub car park?

 

[Gellyneck]

Has anyone ever been gassed and robbed in a pub car park?

Does pi**ed count?

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