Battery problem?

[Pagen]

We have been shielding and self isolating for several months owing to the pandemic and both my and my wife’s medical issues. Our pride and joy Autotrail Tracker EKS on a 57 plate sits idly on our drive. It is connected to an ECU. Now usually I go to it every couple of weeks as the batteries go flatand switch on the small Sargent EC100 control panel and either select L for charging the Leisure battery and then the V to change it to charge the vehicle battery. All has been well doing this for the last couple of years. However I have left it longer than normal this time and clearly both L and V batteries are totally flat . Whilst when the EC 100 is turned on I can select the L. Battery and the leds suggest it is changing..however it does not charge. If I select V to change the vehicle battery as usual an audible beep is heard from the dash but then the control panel immediately turns off with no led lights and obviously does not charge the totality flat vehicle battery? We would be very much obliged if you could share your expertise as to what we can do to sort this issue ? Best regards Paul

 

[donkey]

Hi
Are you saying it is connected to electric hook-up permanently?
If so, I do not understand why you would wait until the batteries are nearly flat before switching on the charger.
I guess you have left it off charge for too long and drained both batteries to death.
Geoff

 

[Pagen]

Hi Geoff what you say MAU be correct . The mains lead is in all the while over winter. It seems that if I do not have small control ec100 on over the rear door then nothing charges? If that control is on I have to manually select L(default position) or change it to V to do the vehicle . Do you think that’s the issue ? As I did inadvertently leave the control panel off for ages owing to circumstances. Should it be left on permanently then with power connected even when not in use to prevent flat batts? Pity if they’re knackered as the vehicle one is quite new? Is a flat battery just fit for chucking out then and replacing ? Regards Paul

 

[donkey]

Hi
What is the Sargent ECU, that's the big electric box either in a locker or under a bed?
Depending in the model, it may have the facility to have the mains charge set to look after both batteries automatically.
Your manual should detail all of this for you.
As for the batteries, it is never a good idea to allow lead acid batteries to go flat and even worse to leave them flat for any length of time.
Some stand alone chargers can recover flat batteries and my be worth a try, before you fork out for new.
An age old trick to get a flat battery to accept charge, is to connect a healthy battery in parallel with the flat battery, that is pos to pos and neg to neg, leave it for 10 minutes to stabilise, then turn on the charger. After another 10 minutes you should be able to disconnect the healthy battery and allow the flat one to charge. Best to leave it on charge for a couple of days.
Geoff

 

[Pagen]

Hi Geoff the Sargent ecu is an ec225. I don’t believe it has the auto switching capability you refer to? I do not have access to another stabilising battery but do have a half decent stand alone charger. Can I just try charging the vehicle Fiat ducato base battery via that and can I do that in situ or do I have to disconnected and remove it from the footwell? Sorry for so many questions. Also I future should I then leave ec 225 and ec 100 switched and charging when on hook up on drive overwinter? Regards Paul

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[donkey]

Hi
The Fiat should not mind having its battery disconnected. Make sure you have the radio code if required. Then disconnect the vehicle battery, no need to actually remove it from carrier and charge with stand alone unit.
The EC225 indeed appears to have manual battery select only. Therefore you would need to alternate between batteries on a regular basis or leave it on Leisure battery and use a stand alone trickle charger for the vehicle battery. There are devices which will trickle charge the vehicle battery and I think Eddie Vanblitz markets one via the forum.
Geoff

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[pappajohn]

Smart charger won't initiate a charge if the battery voltage is too low or dead flat.
You need an older free standing anologue charger direct to the battery (or jump posts) to kick start the charge.
Once the battery gets to maybe 9 or 10 volts the on-board charger will start charging.

 

[Pagen]

Thank you very much for your advice and patience Geoff! Just one final thing is it ok to leave the ec 225 and the ec 100 turned on for extended periods of time whilst on hook up on drive? Is constantly charging via the Sargent unit during winter lay up or lock down damaging to ether it or either battery? Regards Paul

 

[daveandsan]

I have mine on a timer while it’s in storage and it comes on a couple of times a week.

 

[tonyidle]

I've always left mine on both caravans when I had one and now motorhomes. It has never had any effect on battery life. Another simple option for your situation is to leave the start battery charging from the van internal charger & use a small smart charger plugged into a van mains outlet to charge the leisure battery. I've only suggested doing it that way round so the small charger can be kept inside & access to the leisure battery might also be from inside.

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[TheBig1]

are the batteries fairly new? or 2007 like the van?

Batteries do slowly lose charge and capacity over time and cold weather will rapidly kill them off

My advice is sort the current issue by charging or replacing the dead batteries. Then fit a battery master to keep the cab battery topped up when the leisure battery is charged. Leave the panel on then, set to charge the leisure battery.

Your batteries will then be charged and ready to go when needed

 

[Pagen]

As always thank you all so much for your help and advice. Will try charging the vehicle battery which is only just over a year old from a stand alone charger then reconnect it. The leisure battery is about 4 yrs old maybe 3. Will try the same with that . I must admit I worried about leaving ‘everything ‘ on and charging thru the manually switchable Sargent whilst on our drive for any length of time thought it might cook the batteries?

 

[autorouter]

You are right that an ordinary 'dumb' charger connected indefinitely will cook the batteries, but a smart charger is a different matter. It has the ability to monitor the voltage and amps as it is charging, according to what the battery needs.

Typically it charges in three stages, called bulk, absorption and float. In the bulk stage, it applies the full output amps to the battery, while monitoring the voltage. The voltage slowly rises, until it reaches the 'absorption voltage'. At that point it is about 80% charged. It then switches to the absorption stage.

In the absorption stage, the voltage is held constant, and the amps is monitored as it slowly falls. When it reaches a predetermined point, the charger decides the battery is fully charged, and switches to float stage.

In the float stage, the voltage is held at the float voltage, about 13.6V. That is just enough to compensate for the battery self-discharge over a long time, and feed the small permanent loads like the tracker and frost protection valve etc.

A smart charger can be left connected indefinitely. Some even smarter chargers have a 'storage mode', which monitors the battery over the days and weeks, switching on and off as necessary.

 

[Pagen]

Thank you for all that information. You refer to smart charger being safe to leave on so therefore is the Sargent ec225 charger unit on my mo Ho a smart charger and by definition ok to leave on without ‘cooking’ either L or V batteries?

 

[autorouter]

The charger in the EC225 is a two-stage charger that could be classed as a smart charger. It has the bulk and float stages, but no absorption stage. The fact that it has a float stage means it's OK to leave it indefinitely. Some people have it on a timer, switching it on for a few hours every week or fortnight

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[Aeron]

Maybe this will be of some help.

 

[Pagen]

I am so grateful of the help and advice you and others have given me. Am I ok to take the lazy option and connect my free standing charger to where I think the jump points are under the bonnet to initially try to recharge the Fiat Ducato 57 plate battery? Paul

 

[Pagen]

Thanks Arron for the manual too

 

[autorouter]

Am I ok to take the lazy option and connect my free standing charger to where I think the jump points are under the bonnet to initially try to recharge the Fiat Ducato 57 plate battery?

Yes should be OK. Chargers have diodes (electrical one-way valves) that stop any unwanted back-feeding of charge. The voltage will rise to about 14.5V, but that's only the same as the alternator would output, so it's no problem.

 

[Pagen]

Thanks again all of your help and advice is invaluable. My attention span , decision making and active ness seem to be suffering of late . I am sure many of us are experiencing this. The reassurance and help on here really really helps .

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[Ingwe]

The charger in the EC225 is a two-stage charger that could be classed as a smart charger. It has the bulk and float stages, but no absorption stage. The fact that it has a float stage means it's OK to leave it indefinitely. Some people have it on a timer, switching it on for a few hours every week or fortnight

This is what we do. The timer comes on for a couple of hours every day.

 

[autorouter]

This is what we do. The timer comes on for a couple of hours every day.

That doesn't suit some chargers. A charger set up for AGM or Gel batteries might have a timed absorption stage of several hours. Restarting it every day means it gets a couple of hours of absorption voltage every day, when you were maybe expecting just the float voltage. Once a week or once a fortnight is better.

 

[Ingwe]

That doesn't suit some chargers. A charger set up for AGM or Gel batteries might have a timed absorption stage of several hours. Restarting it every day means it gets a couple of hours of absorption voltage every day, when you were maybe expecting just the float voltage. Once a week or once a fortnight is better.

Would it better then to leave it on hookup permanently? As it would be if we were staying in the van when on hookup?

 

[autorouter]

Would it better then to leave it on hookup permanently? As it would be if we were staying in the van when on hookup?

That's what I do. At first I kept checking the voltage to make sure it wasn't overcharging, and now I'm happy it doesn't. Those that think it's overcharging can put it on a timer to avoid the problem.

 

[Ingwe]

The timer we have allows only for 24 hour switching. is the issue with the absorption stage on the charger only relevant with AGM and gel batteries? Our battery is a lead acid battery.

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[autorouter]

The timer we have allows only for 24 hour switching. is the issue with the absorption stage on the charger only relevant with AGM and gel batteries? Our battery is a lead acid battery.

Depends on the charger. I have a CTEK smart charger that zips through the bulk and absorption stages in a minute or two if the battery is fully charged. Only AGM and Gel batteries need a timed absorption stage.

Some chargers are quite intelligent, and adjust the timing according to the length of the bulk stage. So if the bulk stage is short because it's already fully charged, the timed stage is cut short too.

If you can read the voltage, you can check for yourself. Absorption voltage is 14.4 to 14.8V, float voltage is 13.4 to 13.8V, depending on battery type.

 

[Ingwe]

I'm not sure whether we have a smart charger or a dumbo. So far as I know, there is no selector for types of battery. It's the charger fitted as standard to a 2012 Bailey 620 Approach.

 

[Pagen]

Hi all now I can clearly see where the positive jump/charger point is under the clearly marked +plastic cover. I cannot for the life of me find a clearly identified-charge/jump point? Is it a small protruding forward exposed thread bolt on bottom right of open bonnet about 10 “ in front of the positive one ?

 

[Ingwe]

I think it's the rusty one at 6 o'clock in your photo.

In fact on my Peugeot boxer based van, there is even an earth symbol next to the rusty bolt.

 

[Landy Andy]

Neg jump point
Although any bit of metal would do