Batteries again ....sorry! (1 Viewer)

[PG’s trips]

About to have solar installed ... 200w, MPPT controller, and ......2 AGM 90 Banner batteries ((I know, I know , but the technician has been installing them for years on MHs with no reliability related returns)!!!?. It’s costing just over £1k and I really don’t want to spend anymore at this stage if possible especially as my single existing 4 year leisure battery is still putting out good readings. But the Banner and AGM general feedback do make me nervous .

I think Lithium is out on cost at this stage so alternatively should I consider one GEL battery (and add a second later) or does that defeat the purpose of going solar ? Aim is to stay 5/6 days off grid UK/Ireland at a time. Help!

 

[Stealaway]

Why not just give it a try?
You can never cover all eventualities and with that set up and as long as the sun is shining you could go on for weeks.

 

[pappajohn]

Just tell the installer you want lead acid or GEL batteries.
They aren't going to say "We have nothing but trouble with AGM batteries" are they!

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[Phill D]

i have 140 watts of solar and until recently a 85Amh Exide gel and 4 d/ 5 days was certainly no issue in the sunnier months.

just changed the leisure battery for a 120Amh Exide as the 85 was getting a bit tired.

i believe that 6 days plus will be no issue for me. the 90Amh Banners are around £180 / £200 a piece and my 120Amh Exide was £242.

 

[Lenny HB]

..2 AGM 90 Banner batteries ((I know, I know
But the Banner and AGM general feedback do make me nervous .

AGM's just aren't suitable for leisure use and Banner are about as bad as you can get. If you have problems with them they won't honour their warranty I'm speaking from personal experience.

Gels are superb great for deep discharge when needed the only downside is they take a bit longer to charge. I have 3 x 78a/h Gels, 300 watts of solar with a Votronic regulator. We rarely ever use EHU rely on solar 90% of the time. 2 of my Gels are 5 years old & one is 4 years old, I ran some tests on them recently they are still performing like new.
Also Gels are cheaper.

For your budget if you fit it yourself you could afford Lithium.

 

[Tombola]

Ive got a Lithium you can have if required OP.
I was playing around with Chinese imports and brought in one of these to see how they stacked up against my 200ah lithium. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ULTRAMAX...d=link&campid=5338547443&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

Anyway it shipped in 7 days(cost me more than the ebay one tbh) arrived and I disabled my 200ah polinovel one and used this for 1 week on the drive and outside my Business to try it.
The plan was, as I couldnt add it to my exisiting setup as its a 200 ah and mixing with a 100ah is not advised (to make 300ah) so the plan was after Id played with it and tested the delivery.buying process was to replace 3 lead acids in my Garage solar set up for the lights but I just got round to thinking Im happy with what I have and now Ive sussed out the chinese process for maybe future use on other products I just dont need it in my garage.

SO here it is if you want it, worked fine, looks fine, has had 1 full charge and 2 thirds discharge by me using my lights, inverter etc over a period of 4 days.
£250, gets you a almost £500 lithium brand new and adds the ability to fully utilise the 200w of solar you have if any good to you OP.
I have all the import documents/commercial invoices etc from last week.

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[donkey]

AGM's just aren't suitable for leisure use and Banner are about as bad as you can get. If you have problems with them they won't honour their warranty I'm speaking from personal experience.

Gels are superb great for deep discharge when needed the only downside is they take a bit longer to charge. I have 3 x 78a/h Gels, 300 watts of solar with a Votronic regulator. We rarely ever use EHU rely on solar 90% of the time. 2 of my Gels are 5 years old & one is 4 years old, I ran some tests on them recently they are still performing like new.
Also Gels are cheaper.

For your budget if you fit it yourself you could afford Lithium.

Hi Lenny

Where can I buy Gels cheaper than AGM please?

Geoff

 

[funflair]

Hi Lenny

Where can I buy Gels cheaper than AGM please?

Geoff

At Tayna G80/ES900 80ah gel with 80% useable capacity £147.99 Banner 80ah AGM £159.99

 

[donkey]

Thank you, that's a good price.

Geoff

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[Phill D]

Thank you, that's a good price.

Geoff

Groves batteries is good service and a good price

 

[funflair]

I get the feeling that Exide G80/ES900 have actually come down in price over the last few years, the last ones I bought were in Germany but I am sure they were more than I quoted above in the UK.

 

[Lenny HB]

I get the feeling that Exide G80/ES900 have actually come down in price over the last few years, the last ones I bought were in Germany but I am sure they were more than I quoted above in the UK.

Gone up a bit recently, couple of years ago they were £140, go back 10/12 years they were £240.

Edit:
I see they are back down in price a couple of months ago they were £168.

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[Lenny HB]

Thank you, that's a good price.

Geoff

Another alternative is the Sonnenschein equivalent they make the Exide Gels normally cheaper than Exide but at the moment dearer, I have the Sonnenschien.

If you signup for the Tayna newsletter they often give a 5% discount or buying more than one phone for a haggle they will reduce the carriage cost.

 

[AgeingAndrew]

About to have solar installed ... 200w, MPPT controller, and ......2 AGM 90 Banner batteries ((I know, I know , but the technician has been installing them for years on MHs with no reliability related returns)!!!?. It’s costing just over £1k and I really don’t want to spend anymore at this stage if possible especially as my single existing 4 year leisure battery is still putting out good readings. But the Banner and AGM general feedback do make me nervous .

I think Lithium is out on cost at this stage so alternatively should I consider one GEL battery (and add a second later) or does that defeat the purpose of going solar ? Aim is to stay 5/6 days off grid UK/Ireland at a time. Help!

There is nothing wrong with Banner AGM batteries. I used one in my van for more than 6 years and it still holds a charge. They do need to be charged at the recommended voltage and charge current and should be recharged 100% after each discharge. Repeated under charging will destroy them.

Banner recommend the max charging voltage for AGM at 14.8V with a charger capable of providing charging current of 10% of capacity at the very minimum.

A pair of AGM 90 in parallel need minimum of 18A charging current. 200W solar cannot provide 18A even when pointed directly at the sun. In the UK you might get 10-14A for part of the day if you are really lucky so you will repeatedly undercharge a pair of AGMs.

I’d look at your off-grid power requirements and ways of achieving them before taking any spending decision. Don’t rule out the use of a single battery, it will have a better chance of fully recharging on a sunny day and hence it could last longer than a pair of undercharged batteries.

 

[Lenny HB]

There is nothing wrong with Banner AGM batteries. I

Sorry don't agree with you they are absolute junk, I had 2 fail in 18 months, you have only got to look at the German forums to see how bad they are. Even worse they won't honor their warranty, for a warranty claim they will only accept the results of a CCA test which is meaningless for a leisure battery. Mine passed with flying colours at 80% but on a slow discharge of 10 amps one lasted 10ah the other 11ah.
I think you have just been lucky.

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[PG’s trips]

So the obvious solution or to reduce the likelihood of problems would seem to be to go for 2 GEL ..Exide have 80ah @ £150 each (so I save some dosh too).

Does anyone warn against GELS and if so why? I can simply tell the installer to put these in instead. Even if Banner are OK the AGM general amp discharge/overcharge faffing looks a bit too much for my brain or technical interest.

Jim, who probably knows the debates, was clear too in saying no AGMs for him personally. That said apart from Lenny who obviously had a genuine poor brand experience with Banner, I haven't read many other anti Banner threads.
Thanks for all the input thus far, very informative. Life was admittedly simpler when the debate was Duracell or Ever-ready

 

[Lenny HB]

Lenny who obviously had a genuine poor brand experience with Banner, I haven't read many other anti Banner threads.

Just search the German forums.

 

[Lenny HB]

Does anyone warn against GELS and if so why?

Nope, anyone who has used Gel's has nothing but praise for them.

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[PG’s trips]

Out of interest where do I access German forums ? Also Germany is high on my list for a tour after lockdown.

 

[autorouter]

Does anyone warn against GELS and if so why?

Gels are fine for a classic leisure battery - low to medium amps over a long period. They are not very good for high amps, such as powering an inverter. They are happiest with the amps at C/5 or less (20A for a 100Ah battery). Flooded lead-acid cope better with inverters. If you don't need an inverter, gels are the best.

 

[Raul]

Not a C/5 for gels , that’s agm territory. Even with prolonged C/10 they blister. It depends on the temperature use really. But usually gels are happy on C/8-100. My choice would be flooded all day long with 2 or 6v blocks, with hydrocaps. Never a 12v.

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[S_L_vanlife]

AGM are not as good as they say they are, I have seen a number of bench testing done on them where they are struggling to give 50% capacity, no where near 80% claimed. Gel are OK but not cheap and you need to be carful not over stressing them on charging/discharging and not to over heat them. Gel can crack internally and you loose either cells or capacity.

Lithium are more expensive but if you calculate the output of these and scale properly they are not so expensive. Example a 200ah AGM at £270 if it gives at best 50% capacity you will have 100Ah of use, so you only need an 100 aH lithium at £450 as a comparison as Lithium will give around 95% capacity without any damage to the battery. If you also take into account charge cycle lithium can be as large as 3000 cycles and led acid 200, so you will be buying a few led acid batteries before the Lithium starts to die off . Also lead acid batteries take a long time to get to full 100% charge more for GEL due to the high internal resistance when they get to around 80%, this may mean you will never get 100% capacity when touring (ok on hook-up but then you don't need an expensive setup if you are always plugging in). Lithium are quick charging and will easily charge 100 aH battery from empty to full in 5 hours at 20A even quicker if you have a larger charging source.

One issue with Lithium will be the charging side, you cannot just connect a Lithium battery to your existing setup as it will most probably burn out your alternator. They will pull as much current as they can get due to low internal resistance.

If you want a good video on comparison check out the link below. After watching this if you go with Led Acid then standard Flooded batteries perform really good, hope this is of some help. In end it depends on what you are planning on doing and what power you require

 

[Lenny HB]

Out of interest where do I access German forums ? Also Germany is high on my list for a tour after lockdown.

Do a search on Google.de, not as easy now because Google sees your IP address as a UK one and gives UK results. You need to use a VPN so it thinks you are in Germany.

Here are a couple, Happy Hymer was a good one but can't find it.
Broken Link Removed

Camping, Wohnwagen, Wohnmobil - Forum campen.de

Camping Forum mit Diskussionen über Campen, Wohnwagen, Wohnmobile und Zelte. Campingplatz gesucht? Hier finden Sie Bewertungen und ein Magazin mit Tipps!

www.campen.de

There are links to my trips in my signature, the Croatian one we did quite a bit of Germany on the way there & back.

I didn't put a link to my disastrous one but here is a link we did a few interesting places.

Lenny's Heading for Germany

The start of another little trip, a long drive in France today all of 18 miles to Grand Fort Philippe. Only 2 other vans here both French. Dry at the moment but very draughty. A relaxing day tomorrow will have a nice walk around the nature reserve weather permitting. Then on to the Super U to...

www.motorhomefun.co.uk

 

[Lenny HB]

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[Swifter]

My UltraMax lithium 100ah battery cost less than £400

Lithium Iron Phosphate LiFePO4 Battery Manufacturer UK | UltraMax Batteries

Lithium Iron Phosphate LiFePO4 battery manufacturer in the UK. High quality, flexible customization, lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 batteries designed and manufactured in the UK

www.ultramax.co.uk

 

[Kirsten]

I have read and re read all the battery posts on here and now have a blinding headache.
No idea what most of the text in the posts mean still no idea what a VFM battery is...
So - we have 2 Varta professional Dual purpose AGM batteries under the side seat in our van {Hymer 544 -7 years old }which I assume will have been in since it was built [but who knows - not me ] as they have rusty bolts holding them in.
We have a solar panel on the roof [no idea what voltage/charge/bicycle it is /has so any replies asking will not be answerable ] and when NOT on hook up the little coloured light on the leisure battery indicator goes down to the second highest reading when you put the step up and down . I assume this means the batteries are aging - as am I - exacerbated by the technical language on the 2000000 comments about gel batteries vs AGM as my brain was full reading up about the differences [apart from the money they cost ] let alone the rest of it.
I have looked at the suggested sites that review the AGMs but they were in German and that was when it was start drinking or give up and ask you knowledgeable lot .

Simple questions :1] Do we need new batteries - and I assume this means 2 . They charge up better when we drive the van than on hook up.
2] IF we need new batteries will the earth stop revolving if we buy 2 of the same type and size and get someone to fit them ......


Thank you

 

[Lenny HB]

I have read and re read all the battery posts on here and now have a blinding headache.
No idea what most of the text in the posts mean still no idea what a VFM battery is...
So - we have 2 Varta professional Dual purpose AGM batteries under the side seat in our van {Hymer 544 -7 years old }which I assume will have been in since it was built [but who knows - not me ] as they have rusty bolts holding them in.
We have a solar panel on the roof [no idea what voltage/charge/bicycle it is /has so any replies asking will not be answerable ] and when NOT on hook up the little coloured light on the leisure battery indicator goes down to the second highest reading when you put the step up and down . I assume this means the batteries are aging - as am I - exacerbated by the technical language on the 2000000 comments about gel batteries vs AGM as my brain was full reading up about the differences [apart from the money they cost ] let alone the rest of it.
I have looked at the suggested sites that review the AGMs but they were in German and that was when it was start drinking or give up and ask you knowledgeable lot .

Simple questions :1] Do we need new batteries - and I assume this means 2 . They charge up better when we drive the van than on hook up.
2] IF we need new batteries will the earth stop revolving if we buy 2 of the same type and size and get someone to fit them ......


Thank you

You have done well with them. Does your EBL have an AGM setting? If not you have been extremely lucky.
I suspect you use EHU quite a bit as if you do any old battery will work but if like us you spend 95% of the time off grid AGM's just don't cut it.

IF we need new batteries will the earth stop revolving if we buy 2 of the same type and size and get someone to fit them ..

If you do that we will all be doomed, I tell yer doomed.

If you are going to replace them I would fit Gels, cheaper than AGM and a million times better, just make sure the EBL & solar regulator are on the right settings.

still no idea what a VFM battery is...

VFM - Value For Money
I think you mean VRLA - A valve regulated lead–acid (VRLA) battery, commonly known as a sealed lead–acid (SLA)

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[Richard n Ann]

and when NOT on hook up the little coloured light on the leisure battery indicator goes down to the second highest reading when you put the step up and down .

That's normal, it's probably just the terminal voltage dropping slightly as the battery comes under load

 

[Richard n Ann]

what a VFM battery is

I read it as Value For Money

 

[Kirsten]

You have done well with them. Does your EBL have an AGM setting? If not you have been extremely lucky.
I suspect you use EHU quite a bit as if you do any old battery will work but if like us you spend 95% of the time off grid AGM's just don't cut it.

Thank you Lenny but ?? EBL ??? annual general meeting setting? I fear not .We have hardly used this van- bought it 18 months ago and have had mainly hook up when we sallied forth. [lockdown] Noticed the step was struggling last outing , it has been on EHU on drive but in normal times we do do a lot of off grid - festivals /grandkids charging phones/wilding so in the future we wont be able to get in our out of the van if the step doesn't work [we are teeny wee people ]

If you do that we will all be doomed, I tell yer doomed.

If you are going to replace them I would fit Gels, cheaper than AGM and a million times better, just make sure the EBL & solar regulator are on the right settings.
I assume the person fitting the batteries - complicated wiring and lifting out of old ones etc - will understand what that means and how to do it? Is the solar regulator Osiris the Sun God ? We are teeny weeny hippies . Gels to us are nail polishes [for other gals ] but will resume research .

VFM - Value For Money
I think you mean VRLA - A valve regulated lead–acid (VRLA) battery, commonly known as a sealed lead–acid (SLA)

Definitely VFM was the lettering .. anything with a valve and acid in it sounds really scary and these didnt come up in the surfing the net .

But thank you . Sorry for late reply- baked a cake as was loosing will to live .