Avon Tyres issue (1 Viewer)

[Speve]

If it were me I would change the tyres for your preferred brand and sell the Avon’s on at least you would get something back, and save yourself a lot of hassle trying to get the dealer to sort it out.

 

[Deneb]

Avon tyres are simply following the guidance published by the European Tyre and Rim Technical Organisation, who recommend that motorhomes should only be fitted with CP rated camping car tyres.

It is a recommendation, not a requirement, so the tyres in themselves are perfectly legal as long as they comply with Construction & Use Regs requirements and are otherwise suitable for the vehicle, hence they would be acceptable both to an MOT tester and legally.

Provided that you don't overload the vehicle, properly maintain and run the tyres at the correct pressures they ought to be perfectly suitable.

The ETRTO recommendation is based on statistics which show that many motorhome tyre failures occur on the rear axle and can be attributed to unsuitable use such as the tyres being overloaded, run at unsuitable pressures, in an age deteriorated condition etc. and often left parked for long periods in one or more of those conditions.

There is no legal issue with using a motorhome fitted with Avon, or any other manufacturer's) tyres which otherwise comply with the vehicle manufacturer's requirements as to size and type, suitably inflated and maintained. But don't expect Avon to be sympathetic to a warranty claim were you to tell them that the tyre was fitted to a motorhome.

That really doesn't leave you at any great disadvantage however, as tyre manufacturers will rarely admit to a fault and can quote numerous in-service conditions that could be responsible for any failure. I once had a brand-new Pirelli tyre replaced when it developed a tennis ball size bulge after having only been mounted in the spare wheel carrier for less than 2 weeks. But the replacement was offered on condition that I signed a disclaimer absolving them of any responsibility for the condition of the tyre.

Having had issues with other tyres of the same brand on a different car I made a decision never to use them again.

 

[Lenny HB]

About two ply!

Yep and it's the van tyres that have extra 2.

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[2657]

So basically what they seem to be saying is that camper tyres are better if you run overloaded and illegal!
Seems a strange marketing strategy to me.

 

[Deneb]

So basically what they seem to be saying is that camper tyres are better if you run overloaded and illegal!
Seems a strange marketing strategy to me.

No, they're saying that as a not insignificant number of motorhome drivers seem to have no idea how much weight they carry and/or pay little attention to maintenance, camper tyres were introduced to reduce the safety risks involved with those issues. They do however carry a significant penalty in the form of reduced ride comfort, particularly as the recommendations include a specific running pressure of (I think, from memory) 5.5 bar on rear axles irrespective of actual weight, so if you are certain that you run within permitted weights, take steps to ensure regular maintenance and suitable usage conditions they are not necessarily the most satisfactory option. The trouble is that many drivers only look at their tyres when they're newly fitted, flat or in shreds.

 

[AXO66]

If you think that, then explain why Michelin, Pirelli and Continental make specialist motorhome tyres with stronger sidewalls than standard van tyres. Its explained here:

readthe article. And it was interesting.
they concluded though

“So are Camping Tyres Necessary?
To answer the original question, no, camping tyres aren't necessary. There is nothing compelling you to purchase these specialist tyres. You won't be looked down upon for using van tyres instead. However, you will be losing out in terms of value for money.

There's also a noticeable difference in the driving experience when you opt for specialist tyres. If you're a regular camper, it's definitely worth investing. You’ll certainly be thankful when you’re at full weight capacity and you need that little bit of extra support from your wheels. “

i am still waiting for the special camper tyre manafactures to be very specific about their construction and how it differs from van tyres with the same load rating.

having said that somebody will gently point out I have missed that bit .

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[cmcardle75]

my rear axle is plated at 2.7 tonnes so run on proper camper tyres think 112 rating but not 100% sure or 121 Michelin van tyres rated for the load ? Load equivalent to the total running mass of most motorhomes on 4 wheels
Having said that my car has manufacturer approved tyres but they are n rated so again tyre spec plus a nod I admit to manufacturer like camper tyres

Your axle is rated at 2700kg. Unless your vehicle manufacturer has specified a higher figure, this requires a minimum load rating of 119 (assuming single wheel per side). You only need "CP" rated tyres if the vehicle manufacturer has specified this, which is very unlikely (simply supplying CP tyres by default doesn't imply that they are required). It is irrelevant how much the vehicle actually weighs or how much load is on the axle. You must legally have tyres capable of withstanding the full plated load. It could be that only CP rated tyres have the required load rating. In which case, they are required by default, but not because of the CP rating.

If you are running 112 rated tyres (CP or otherwise) on a 2700kg axle, you are breaking the law (unless it is a DRW and the tyres are something like 112/109 which would be good for well over 4 tonnes and wouldn't be unusual as the tyre rating is largely determined by the front axle, with rear tyres running well under their full capacity). Where two load ratings are given, the first is for a 2 wheel axle and the second for a 4 wheel axle.

 

[2657]

No, they're saying that as a not insignificant number of motorhome drivers seem to have no idea how much weight they carry and/or pay little attention to maintenance, camper tyres were introduced to reduce the safety risks involved with those issues. They do however carry a significant penalty in the form of reduced ride comfort, particularly as the recommendations include a specific running pressure of (I think, from memory) 5.5 bar on rear axles irrespective of actual weight, so if you are certain that you run within permitted weights, take steps to ensure regular maintenance and suitable usage conditions they are not necessarily the most satisfactory option. The trouble is that many drivers only look at their tyres when they're newly fitted, flat or in shreds.

What you are saying is basically what I said but possibly more diplomatically.
The weight, load rating and overloading issue I and others have already mentioned, regarding maintenance it is a requirement that vehicles and tyres are maintained, roadworthy and above all safe.
It would seem to me then that CP tyres may possibly withstand abuse and lack of care better than commercial van tyres which is a sad reflection on motorhome users.

 

[Landy Andy]

Some have clearly interpreted the requirement for CP tyres is due to overloading, and abuse by motorhome owners. I don’t interpret it as such. I read it as CP tyres are recommended due to being loaded and the vehicle being stationary for long periods, whilst carrying this load, and that is the biggest difference between commercial vehicles and motorhomes. A commercial vehicle will be loaded to the max and travel many many miles, and a commercial vehicle maybe parked up for months, but it would be very rare for a commercial vehicle to be parked up whist loaded. It’s not the case for all of us, but some will park up their motorhome at the end of summer, and the vehicle will sit stationary till the next spring. They can remove practically no weight from the motorhome apart from clothes and drain the water tank, which is nothing really. Most months we use are motorhome so are less concerned about CP tyres but the manufacturers clearly see the need for them and too cover their bums with statements about them.

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[Coolcats]

This is Avon’s statement

Presently, we do not recommend any Avon tyres for use on caravans or motorhomes, as we do not design any of our tyres for such use

It is aggressive and miss selling and falls right In to the consumer act read up use their wording if you have legal cover from RAC or your insurance company speak with them and they will help guide you to the actual wording to use In the letter.

 

[2657]

Some have clearly interpreted the requirement for CP tyres is due to overloading, and abuse by motorhome owners. I don’t interpret it as such. I read it as CP tyres are recommended due to being loaded and the vehicle being stationary for long periods, whilst carrying this load, and that is the biggest difference between commercial vehicles and motorhomes. A commercial vehicle will be loaded to the max and travel many many miles, and a commercial vehicle maybe parked up for months, but it would be very rare for a commercial vehicle to be parked up whist loaded. It’s not the case for all of us, but some will park up their motorhome at the end of summer, and the vehicle will sit stationary till the next spring. They can remove practically no weight from the motorhome apart from clothes and drain the water tank, which is nothing really. Most months we use are motorhome so are less concerned about CP tyres but the manufacturers clearly see the need for them and too cover their bums with statements about them.

And that for me is the only reason to fit CP tyres but as I have said previously if I was laying a vehicle up for 6 months I would raise the wheels or rotate somehow whatever tyre was fitted.

 

[Deneb]

Some have clearly interpreted the requirement for CP tyres is due to overloading, and abuse by motorhome owners. I don’t interpret it as such.

From the ETRTO manual:

"Overloading is generally the main cause of tyre failure, due to the fact that this type of vehicle often carries an excessive or badly distributed load, which, may be higher than that permitted by the load index (LI) of the tyre; usually on tyres fitted to the rear axle.

CP-type tyres have been designed to cater for the higher loads imposed by motor-caravans, especially when fitted in single formation on the rear driven axle.

The LI designation of CP-type tyres carries a single “load index” indicating their normal use in single fitment. In this case only, tyres on the rear axle have to be inflated to 550 kPa, (to compensate for severe conditions of unequal load distribution, but with no further concession to increase the maximum load capacity).

For these reasons, it is strongly recommended that motor-caravans are only fitted with CP-tyres."

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[thebriars]

It is aggressive and miss selling and falls right In to the consumer act read up use their wording if you have legal cover from RAC or your insurance company speak with them and they will help guide you to the actual wording to use In the letter.

Really? Nothing aggressive or miss selling about it. Quite the opposite, Avon are saying don't use our tyres on motorhomes. They are perfectly entitled to do that. Many, many manufacturers have disclaimers pointing out when things should not be used or done with their product. Your point would be true, if it was the opposite way round and Avon said their tyres were suitable for motorhomes whilst knowing full well they were not for some reason.

If you think you are right on this point how about quoting the appropriate section and sub section of the CRA.

 

[Coolcats]

Really? Nothing aggressive or miss selling about it. Quite the opposite, Avon are saying don't use our tyres on motorhomes. They are perfectly entitled to do that. Many, many manufacturers have disclaimers pointing out when things should not be used or done with their product. Your point would be true, if it was the opposite way round and Avon said their tyres were suitable for motorhomes whilst knowing full well they were not for some reason.

If you think you are right on this point how about quoting the appropriate section and sub section of the CRA.

Your right Avon are upfront on what and how to use their tyres, Avon did not sell the tyres for the OP's MoHo a dealer has. Therefor the issue appears not to be with the dealer and I used the same for when I had conversion quality issues with a company that converted a VW Transporter to a Camper, VW were the innocent party it was the dealer I went after....and had the desired remedial action.

 

[cmcardle75]

Your right Avon are upfront on what and how to use their tyres, Avon did not sell the tyres for the OP's MoHo a dealer has. Therefor the issue appears not to be with the dealer and I used the same for when I had conversion quality issues with a company that converted a VW Transporter to a Camper, VW were the innocent party it was the dealer I went after....and had the desired remedial action.

Yes, but they have produced a tyre with a declared specification that is legally binding. They can't go round saying it can only be put on yellow painted vehicles or if your name is Bob. Either it can take the weight (and this means 100% of the time it is fitted) or it can't. If it can't, it is defective, does not meet the legal specification and must not be sold.

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[Coolcats]

Yes, but they have produced a tyre with a declared specification that is legally binding. They can't go round saying it can only be put on yellow painted vehicles or if your name is Bob. Either it can take the weight (and this means 100% of the time it is fitted) or it can't. If it can't, it is defective, does not meet the legal specification and must not be sold.

Agreed, there are two Avon Tyres I can place on my track/road car both road legal, however and it is a big however one of the tyres is definitely recommended for road use with some track use, the other is mainly for track use and whilst it can cope with rain its performance can lead to some exciting moments which you may not wish to experience on the road.

So if Avon say do not use the tyre on a motorhome they will have good reason for saying this and if a dealer has fitted them I would take the MoHo straight back and get them to change them (I probably would ask Avon to intervene). its nothing to do with the MOT which the dealer has refers to as the MOT examiner only looked at the state of tyre not check its suitability.

 

[Phill D]

Agreed, there are two Avon Tyres I can place on my track/road car both road legal, however and it is a big however one of the tyres is definitely recommended for road use with some track use, the other is mainly for track use and whilst it can cope with rain its performance can lead to some exciting moments which you may not wish to experience on the road.

So if Avon say do not use the tyre on a motorhome they will have good reason for saying this and if a dealer has fitted them I would take the MoHo straight back and get them to change them (I probably would ask Avon to intervene). its nothing to do with the MOT which the dealer has refers to as the MOT examiner only looked at the state of tyre not check its suitability.

not wishing to be pedantic but it does not say "do not use " it says "we do not recommend" that is a get out clause as far as i can see.

 

[Coolcats]

not wishing to be pedantic but it does not say "do not use " it says "we do not recommend" that is a get out clause as far as i can see.

Thats fine Phil being pedantic can be useful, so the answer is speak with Avon get a clear answer

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[AXO66]

So what is the actual difference in the physical construction between the types of tyres, CP and ordinary commercial tyres that can have the same load index.?.

 

[cmcardle75]

So what is the actual difference in the physical construction between the types of tyres, CP and ordinary commercial tyres that can have the same load index.?.

Stiffer sidewalls, supposedly.

 

[EuroTrotters]

Hi

This is a get out clause for Avon. Basically, I would say "CCS" Cheap Chinese shit, usually, though not always.

I have written a lot about tyres on various forums, I do know a little about them. Though I do not claim to be an expert.

I would replace them with a decent brand.

place your Hands flat in the air, times that by four (or six)> That is roughly all your tons of motorhome that sit on the road at any one millisecond whilst driving.

Do you want cheap tyres?

If you like, send me a PM and I will give you some recommendations.

And NEVER EVER Believe you need camper tyres, you DO NOT. If your insurers say you do, change insurers.

TM

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[TheBig1]

I agree with the poster above, including that you don't need camper tyres. Except that if your van sits still for months, then they are far stronger in the sidewalls. They certainly flex less during cornering too

 

[roadwarrior]

its already been stated by previous people above but i will restate it, under the assumption the tyres fitted are capable of the load they are safe to use, HOWEVER, Motorhome tyres have extra stiffening ply to cope with long periods of non use ( ie winter) so on the assumption they are capable of the load its all good. Nobody is responsible for how often you use it - thats down to you. Non Motorhome Tyres lose their roundness over long layoff periods and thats why its not recommended, not because they are unsafe or incapable. So assuming the load capability is ok ( you dont say ) they are legal..

 

[joka250]

It was always my understanding that loss of roundness was caused by issues in the tread plies not the sidewall. ex Dunlop and Goodyear.

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[roadwarrior]

It was always my understanding that loss of roundness was caused by issues in the tread plies not the sidewall. ex Dunlop and Goodyear.

that would be caused by a bad moulding and be difficult to balance from New, while cracking on the sidewall would happen if stood for long periods like a Motorhome does. Getting back to OP question, as many have said, commercial tyres will be fine for say a couple of years until you see the cracking start to appear, then you can put Motorhome tyres on, at least it spreads the financial load and saves you the bother of all the angst of threatening the seller with all and sundry. ex Dunlop beltmaker.