Autotrail Ducato 2.3 X250 engine problem

[John willis]

Today I went to my van in storage to run it as I do regularly.
It was warmed up to temperature over about 15 minutes and then it misfired a couple of times and then stopped.
It would not start even though the battery was fully charged and the starter motor was briskly turning the engine over.
I drained off some diesel from the filter canister but there was no sign of water.

Im wondering if there is an immobiliser problem as the engine would not fire at all.

Any advice would be very much appreciated

Thanks

John

 

[Kev and Christa]

Sorry can't help... Bump

 

[L' Hobo]

Today I went to my van in storage to run it as I do regularly.
It was warmed up to temperature over about 15 minutes and then it misfired a couple of times and then stopped.
It would not start even though the battery was fully charged and the starter motor was briskly turning the engine over.
I drained off some diesel from the filter canister but there was no sign of water.

Im wondering if there is an immobiliser problem as the engine would not fire at all.

Any advice would be very much appreciated

Thanks

John

It could be a number of thing but I have to say, running your engine regularly and, it getting up to temperature in 15min, without taking it out on the road, sounds very strange to me? Mine takes that length of time to reach that temp. when I'm driving it!

Running a stationary vehicle engine can sometimes do more harm than good and its surprising what your ECU begins to think is 'normal' but its probably best to put your scanner on it and see if any faults are registered and check the accident fuel cut-out in the footwell.
There maybe fuel in the filter but unless there in more being pumped into the system, that fuel is going nowhere. (after you had drained some fuel from the filter, did you hear the pump replenishing it?)

Good Luck!

 

[almichie]

Is it turning over at the normal speed or faster?

 

[Jackd]

Water (condensation) in the fuel is a possibility if the tank was not brimmed when put into storage.

My immobiliser won’t allow me to turn the engine over. Ignition only.

The worst scenario (hopefully not)
When you say it’s turning the engine over “briskly”, does this sound like it usually does?
I’m hoping it’s not just turning the bottom half of the engine. This would probably normally point to a cam belt failure .
Both of the belt failures in my life were at tick over .

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[L' Hobo]

Water (condensation) in the fuel is a possibility if the tank was not brimmed when put into storage.

My immobiliser won’t allow me to turn the engine over. Ignition only.

The worst scenario (hopefully not)
When you say it’s turning the engine over “briskly”, does this sound like it usually does?
I’m hoping it’s not just turning the bottom half of the engine. This would probably normally point to a cam belt failure .
Both of the belt failures in my life were at tick over .

Is it not an interference engine and if he had cambelt failure, would he not be hitting the valves etc?? (I hope I'm wrong but as I too run an X250 engine, I don't think so?)

 

[Jackd]

Is it not an interference engine and if he had cambelt failure, would he not be hitting the valves etc?? (I hope I'm wrong but as I too run an X250 engine, I don't think so?)

That’ll be a “non interference” engine that cannot hit the valves & not as far as I’m aware. Somebody with more knowledge on the X250 could possibly confirm.
Because it would have bent the valves on the first rotation of the engine, you wouldn’t necessarily hear the pistons hitting thereafter.
Even if it were a “non interference” engine, the belt may still have snapped.

Hopefully, it’s nothing to do with the timing belt.

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

From the symptoms described it could be a failed fuel pump or pressure regulator but would need proper diagnostics to confirm

 

[Jackd]

Is it not an interference engine and if he had cambelt failure, would he not be hitting the valves etc?? (I hope I'm wrong but as I too run an X250 engine, I don't think so?)

My apologies, I have just reread your reply.
To my knowledge, yes, your correct in an interference engine

 

[L' Hobo]

That’ll be a “non interference” engine that cannot hit the valves & not as far as I’m aware. Somebody with more knowledge on the X250 could possibly confirm.
Because it would have bent the valves on the first rotation of the engine, you wouldn’t necessarily hear the pistons hitting thereafter.
Even if it were a “non interference” engine, the belt may still have snapped.

Hopefully, it’s nothing to do with the timing belt.

I thought I had inferred that I thought it WAS an interference engine ( 'Is it not') and in my experience of being a marine/heavy diesel engineer, IF the pistons hit the valves, the engine usually does NOT turn over again it remains solid until repaired.

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[Jackd]

I thought I had inferred that I thought it WAS an interference engine ( 'Is it not') and in my experience of being a marine/heavy diesel engineer, IF the pistons hit the valves, the engine usually does NOT turn over again it remains solid until repaired.

Hence my apology( #9) after rereading your reply.

On light duty engines, the motor will happily turn over once its bent the valves out of the way.

 

[John willis]

Thanks very much for all the responses.

I know it’s not ideal to warm the engine when parked up but didn’t think that would cause problems.
Hasn’t previously.

Where is the fuel cut-out in the footwell, that sounds like a possibility.

I couldn’t hear if the pump was replenishing the filter chamber as I’m deaf!

The engine was cranking over at normal speed and there is not a cam belt problem as I had it replaced about six months ago.

I always park up with a full fuel tank so I don’t think that would be the problem.

It’s odd how the engine just stopped, my partner was sitting in the drivers seat and cycling the revs between one and two thousand rpm whilst I was doing other non-related jobs when it just stopped.

It has a Phantom tracker and Sigma alarm set up and I wonder if there’s an issue there for some reason?

 

[John willis]

Can fuel pumps just pack up for no apparent reason?
Where is the pump located, perhaps I could feel if it is operating even if I can’t hear it.

 

[John willis]

I haven’t got a diagnostic scanner, has anyone got any advice which would be an ideal unit to purchase please?

 

[Lenny HB]

It could be a number of thing but I have to say, running your engine regularly and, it getting up to temperature in 15min, without taking it out on the road, sounds very strange to me? Mine takes that length of time to reach that temp. when I'm driving it!

Running a stationary vehicle engine can sometimes do more harm than good and its surprising what your ECU begins to think is 'normal' but its probably best to put your scanner on it and see if any faults are registered and check the accident fuel cut-out in the footwell.
There maybe fuel in the filter but unless there in more being pumped into the system, that fuel is going nowhere. (after you had drained some fuel from the filter, did you hear the pump replenishing it?)

Good Luck!

Agree you should never run a diesel stationary from cold.

If it's been run regularly on tickover from cold it could be a problem with the CAT or DPF but they normally just put it into limp mode.

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[L' Hobo]

Thanks very much for all the responses.

I know it’s not ideal to warm the engine when parked up but didn’t think that would cause problems.
Hasn’t previously.

Where is the fuel cut-out in the footwell, that sounds like a possibility.

I couldn’t hear if the pump was replenishing the filter chamber as I’m deaf!

The engine was cranking over at normal speed and there is not a cam belt problem as I had it replaced about six months ago.

I always park up with a full fuel tank so I don’t think that would be the problem.

It’s odd how the engine just stopped, my partner was sitting in the drivers seat and cycling the revs between one and two thousand rpm whilst I was doing other non-related jobs when it just stopped.

It has a Phantom tracker and Sigma alarm set up and I wonder if there’s an issue there for some reason?

I think, if I remember rightly, that the fuel cut-off is tucked away in the passenger side footwell but it will be in the driver handbook.

I know nothing of your alarm systems but, as it suddenly stopped, that sounds, from what I've read on here, to be the major suspect.
I think the Phantom is fitted by Van-Bitz so Eddie should be able to advise? Good Luck!

Edit: GOOD scanners can be bought from Gendan, talk to Grant (or anyone) ask for a handheld one.

As for pumps, the main pressure one is at the front of the engine opposite side from the starter motor but not sure where the electric lift pump is (probably near the filter or in the tank?)

 

[Derbyshire wanderer]

Can fuel pumps just pack up for no apparent reason?
Where is the pump located, perhaps I could feel if it is operating even if I can’t hear it.

Yes, they are just an electric motor and sit in the fuel tank so are almost impossible to hear running

 

[L' Hobo]

Yes, they are just an electric motor and sit in the fuel tank so are almost impossible to hear running

except, on a quiet day without the engine running, when you have changed the fuel filter and you have turned on the ignition 3 times to replenish the fuel system. (at least that's my experience except the OP said he was deaf but info might help others?)

 

[Brooky]

Thanks very much for all the responses.

I know it’s not ideal to warm the engine when parked up but didn’t think that would cause problems.
Hasn’t previously.

Where is the fuel cut-out in the footwell, that sounds like a possibility.

I couldn’t hear if the pump was replenishing the filter chamber as I’m deaf!

The engine was cranking over at normal speed and there is not a cam belt problem as I had it replaced about six months ago.

I always park up with a full fuel tank so I don’t think that would be the problem.

It’s odd how the engine just stopped, my partner was sitting in the drivers seat and cycling the revs between one and two thousand rpm whilst I was doing other non-related jobs when it just stopped.

It has a Phantom tracker and Sigma alarm set up and I wonder if there’s an issue there for some reason?

Hi John. Probably your other advisors have the more likely suggestions. But just in case you bought the motorhome 2nd hand - I once bought a perfectly good german motorhome that had two immobilisers fitted by the first two english owners. Result, the immobilisers intermittently confused each other so that at odd times the starter would turn over to no effect. Luckily within guarantee period and as garage not able to solve, they offered a replacement.

 

[John willis]

An update for those that are interested but not very helpful for others with a similar issue.

I hadn’t been able to return to the van until Monday and wasn’t optimistic that anything will have changed.

The first thing I did however was to clean up the bonnet immobiliser switch which was rather mucky.

Sat inside with the doors all shut and locked the van using the dash button which clicked all round and worked. It hadn’t previously.
Then unlocked using the dash button which worked.
Fingers well crossed, put key in and turned on and off five times and then pressed the immobiliser fob button (sigma) whereupon turning the key fully turned the engine and it started!!!!

Didn’t run it long in light of what had been said previously and will return hopefully next week to take it for an extended run.

So what was the problem?
Did the bonnet switch cause the problem, does the whole system re-set after a period of time, did turning the key multiple times help (as suggested elsewhere)?

Goodness only knows but for now seems resolved.

Thanks again to all who offered advice, all very helpful with pointers for the future.

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[pappajohn]

Door and bonnet pin switches are usually alarm triggers and nothing to do with immobilisers.
Immobilisers are to disable electric/electronic systems.

 

[John willis]

Hi pappajohn
I presumed that the sigma fob controls both the locking and imobilisation as that is how I lock the van when leaving.
If the alarm triggers are not working properly then I’d have thought the system would recognise that and not lock on the fob?
Something to try next time I go to the van

 

[John willis]

On second thoughts, when I had the initial problem, the engine would turn over but not start.
If it was an immobiliser issue what part of the engine system is affected by the immobiliser to cause the engine not to start?
It seems odd that the engine was running and then stopped and wouldn’t start.

 

[GeoffnDee]

The immobiliser could be linked to the BCM (body control module) which I think you will find controls both the central locking and the fuel safety switch cut off system (along with other things) .

 

[Badknee]

When I was working I started the truck engine and let it run on tickover just long enough to get the oil moving and build the air up, same with the moho tickover just long enough to move the oil then make it work.