Are These Things Legal? (1 Viewer)

[SomeoneElse]

It doesn't matter what happens in other countries, in the UK Jim's advice to buy the approved kit is the only sensible approach.

The point I was making was that there are alternatives to the UK system, which in my view is one that only benefits the company involved. Of course like any tool you need to know how to use it safely and effectively.
So yes if you don't understand the principles and know how to implement them stick with the safe and simple alternative. I have a fixed tank and with adapters its simple to fill up all over Europe.

 

[Wildman]

the pump itself cuts off at a certain pressure, when filling an empty bottle (the only time you should) and putting in the correct number of litres the pump always shuts off as it is reached without input from me.

 

[Wildman]

No such adapter exists...

however, in defense of those who 'break the law' by using them.

Can you show me the "law" that makes the practice illegal Jim. discouraged by the fuel companies maybe but not illegal. I still have one but no longer use it as I have a fixed tank, however they are no different to using a gaslow bottle apart from the name. So do gaslow users actually measure the gas or just fill up until the pump stops? Maybe someone with the system can clarify.

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[Tootles]

I was always under the impression that it was the pump itself that cuts out, on reaching a pre-set back pressure? Certainly that way with my car, which has no 'float' fitted inside the tank.
Some garage pumps have a lower cut off then others, this I have found out locally.

 

[vwalan]

vehicles using lpg for fuel dont need the 80% vapour area . they take liquid from the bottom of the tank.
some lpg fuel tanks do have a shut off valve ie, float ,some dont . or perhaps i should say didnt .
the pumps should shut off at a certain back pressure its about 90%. they do vary its not exact science . have to be one hell of a strong pump to split a bottle .
shame these days as a few years ago one of the funsters worked out of the calor depot by plymouth he could have given lots more info . there are some of his threads somewhere .

 

[Tootles]

vehicles using lpg for fuel dont need the 80% vapour area . they take liquid from the bottom of the tank.
some lpg fuel tanks do have a shut off valve ie, float ,some dont . or perhaps i should say didnt .
the pumps should shut off at a certain back pressure its about 90%. they do vary its not exact science . have to be one hell of a strong pump to split a bottle .
shame these days as a few years ago one of the funsters worked out of the calor depot by plymouth he could have given lots more info . there are some of his threads somewhere .

Some years ago, we owned a Jeep Cherokee that ran on LPG. Sometimes, if you filled up early morning, and the day turned warm, then the tank(s) would 'blow off' slightly, to the outside. You could smell it but only hear a faint hiss when you got near. This worried me, but it seems that's what they are designed to do.

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[scotjimland]

Can you show me the "law" that makes the practice illegal Jim. discouraged by the fuel companies maybe but not illegal. I still have one but no longer use it as I have a fixed tank, however they are no different to using a gaslow bottle apart from the name. So do gaslow users actually measure the gas or just fill up until the pump stops? Maybe someone with the system can clarify.

Please note roger, I had 'break the law' in inverted commas .. meaning that is what it was called on this thread.. I was quoting.

as far as I know there is no Law , only a regulation or directive given by suppliers.

 

[Jim]

If the pump will cut-off just with back pressure as Roger suggests. Why do gaslow bother building in the cutoff float or is that just belt and braces.

 

[JJ]

I don't CARE whether they are legal or not.

I have been using one for years.

The local LPG place uses it AND allows me to use it...

They are the main GPL suppliers in this area of Portugal.

The ignorance displayed about this subject drives MAD.

OK. If you don't want to use one FINE.

If you are in the teeniest, weeniest bit worried DON'T...

Filling your car with petrol at the petrol station is much more dangerous...


JJ

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[Tootles]

I don't CARE whether they are legal or not.

I have been using one for years.

The local LPG place uses it AND allows me to use it...

They are the main GPL suppliers in this area of Portugal.

The ignorance displayed about this subject drives MAD.

OK. If you don't want to use one FINE.

If you are in the teeniest, weeniest bit worried DON'T...

Filling your car with petrol at the petrol station is much more dangerous...


JJ

I only asked, Mr JJ, about a product advertised on FleaBay. You don't have to get mad!.

 

[Terry]

BEEN A WHILE SINCE WE HAD A REFILL ADAPTER GAS DEBATE
They are not Illegal although it is illegal to use them to refill Calor bottles (get your own)as it is illegal to refill Calor bottles
Only refill completely empty bottles to their weight IE 6 kg bottle = 12ltrs of LPG ///3.9 kg bottle = 7.8 ltrs of LPG etc etc --it's easy to do you simply connect adapter and open the bottle valve then connect the LPG pump and press the button to fill to your level --6kg=12 ltrs --let go of button this stops the pump at the desired level -or before full level-- TURN OFF the bottle then remove the lpg pump and go pay for your gas --
BIGGER SAVINGS ON SMALLER BOTTLES
IE yesterday I filled my small 3.9 kg bottle for £5.28 instead of £16ish exchange from Calor
You only fill to the stated weight 1kg =2ltrs you are in charge of the pump so don't be tempted to put more in as the weight on the bottle is the 80% full --even Calor on there own web site state that bottles can be anything up to 90% full depending on conditions --
No 80% full floats to go wrong (they do) or pipes to leak (they do) just a simple well made adapter to screw on and off
I bought a proper refillable bottle off Steve (looking good) that has almost the same adapter built onto the bottle but it's permanently fixed and you then screw your regulator onto the bottle(refill part) -so you have to remove regulator to fill it and then it's see through with a 80% full line to fill it to --No different to using an adapter and engaging your brain -may I add IMO no more dangerous filling with a adapter or not in the case of the proper refillable one -Yes I can see through the refillable bottle but at the same time the gauge on the pump tells me (along with my brain) when the empty ones full
More nonsense about RA than gassing --smoke and mirrors
terry

 

[Jim]

They are not Illegal although it is illegal to use them to refill Calor bottles (get your own)as it is illegal to refill Calor bottles

terry

Is that right? I can see it might be against their terms and conditions when renting you the cylinder. But I can't think about a 'Law' that might be broken. What law is this terry?

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[Terry]

If the pump will cut-off just with back pressure as Roger suggests. Why do gaslow bother building in the cutoff float or is that just belt and braces. View attachment 38408

The pump will cut off but it may well put in more than 80% so do the maths
The bottles 80% full float stops the flow of gas at a supposedly 80% giving you a safe feeling that it's cut off at the proper level But THEY DO GO FAULTY so the pump works on pressure and also cuts off --
How many times have we had posted that my GL safety floats gone wrong but they exchanged no problem or my pig tail leads leaking etc , Nothing like that to go wrong with a adapter just common sense -admittedly some people have more of that than others
terry

 

[Snowbird]

As correctly stated by Terry, its only illegal to fill Calor bottles. Thats why I stated earlier that I use German bottles. They are exactly the same filler as Calor butane and can be had for free in Spain once empty as the long term Germans bin them when empty. The only difference between a Calor butane bottle and a German one is the colour. I have an underslung LPG tank as well as the the 2 bottles and the bottles have not been used in anger as yet. The real savings come in with the small 4.5 kg bottle which I use for my BBQ. If you are not comfortable using these fillers then do not use them. Some are not comfortable distilling there own fuel, but some are .

 

[Terry]

Hi Jim Calor state (along with a few others ) that you are not allowed to refill there bottles - It's my understanding that this makes it Illegal to refill them but if you have your own bottles it's not because they are your own A bit like copy right laws -No proper idea which law they do you under but they can get around it some way to get you done but only for filling there bottles --May do it through H & S laws ?
Cannot see how it's any more dangerous than filling a car with LPG -in fact less to go wrong using the adapter -no pipes, joints or anything
terry
EDIT could they do you for breaking there terms and conditions Jim? rather than a law against refilling

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[ShiftZZ]

I think there is some confusing here between unlawful and illegal, it may not be illegal but it certainly is unlawful according to the rules / terms by Calor.
Another issue is, that although Gaslow etc, may comply to certain regulations these items may not, so therefore 'if' anything goes wrong with Galsow, you may have a comeback, with these you may not.

If you use one and you cause harm, knowing that you were undertaking an unlawful act, it could cost you a lot of money as I doubt of you would have any insurance cover, using approved equipment you may have...

That's the risk you take.

Any garage knowingly allowing you to use such a device, may also or could be held accountable..

 

[Jim]

Hi Jim Calor state (along with a few others ) that you are not allowed to refill there bottles - It's my understanding that this makes it Illegal to refill them

If something went wrong that is their umbrella I don't think it's a law so cannot be
illegal, but it will put you in a dodgy position re the health and safety bods if something went wrong. Calor are just a private company and as far as laws go they cannot make them for us to break.

 

[Jim]

I think there is some confusing here between unlawful and illegal, it may not be illegal but it certainly is unlawful according to the rules / terms by Calor.
.

It's always confused me.

So breaking a companies rules is 'Unlawful'?

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[Terry]

Is that right? I can see it might be against their terms and conditions when renting you the cylinder. But I can't think about a 'Law' that might be broken. What law is this terry?

Hi Jim,Not even sure if it is against any law but over the yrs everything I have read (and I have read lots) people have posted all sorts of info from everywhere and all the links from Calor and the likes -nowhere HAVE I READ A PARTICULAR LAW --only RECOMMENDATIONS just the same as they say it's against a law they generally go on to state it's against there recommendations --Now if there was a accident using a RA (again never read of anyone using one having one) would they do you for going against the recommendation ?
As I see it recommendations are just that, and as such I have the right not to follow the recommendation- I think it's a very grey area of law
terry

 

[ShiftZZ]

It's always confused me.

So breaking a companies rules is 'Unlawful'?

If something is unlawful, it means it is against the law, but not necessarily a criminal act; it can be a civil wrong, such as trademark infringement, for which the wrongdoer may be sued, but will unlikely face criminal prosecution.

Illegal describes an act that is unlawful and also a criminal act.

 

[laneside]

As already said, not illegal, no different to filling a gaslow bottle. The pump will switch off when 80% limit has been reached so no worries there. a decent adapter will have the 80% number of litre stamped on it anyway so easy anyway. I used one for years before I got a van with a fixed underslung tank. Gas companies try to ban their use because they are charging double the cost of refilling, a monopoly simple as that. It's years since I bought a bottle of gas so when I had to replace a small 3.5kg bottle recently I was horrified that it cost £15.99 for a refill, a massive ripoff.

Bit of dangerous information here for the un-initiated and it is certainly illegal to re-fill a Calor bottle it says so on the bottle

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[Tootles]

Bit of dangerous information here for the un-initiated and it is certainly illegal to re-fill a Calor bottle it says so on the bottle

It says 'PERSIL' on the sides of buses, but they don't take in washing!

I think the only dodgy ground you VS Calor is if the bottle(s) your trying to refill were part of a hire agreement that you signed when getting them in the first place. If you acquired them from the local tip, you have no signed agreement with Calor, and therefore they have no leg(s) to stand on.

 

[Jim]

Bit of dangerous information here for the un-initiated and it is certainly illegal to re-fill a Calor bottle it says so on the bottle

Does it? Not on mine, its says ..Only to be filled by Calor etc.

 

[ShiftZZ]

It says 'PERSIL' on the sides of buses, but they don't take in washing!

I think the only dodgy ground you VS Calor is if the bottle(s) your trying to refill were part of a hire agreement that you signed when getting them in the first place. If you acquired them from the local tip, you have no signed agreement with Calor, and therefore they have no leg(s) to stand on.

Flippant and irrelevant.

If you acquire the cylinder from the tip, you still have the same terms on conditions as were 'printed' on the side of the cylinder. Even it was not and you went and bought the above item, you must know its not the 'normal' thing to do and doing so is unlawful, not illegal. You are possibly breaking the terms and conditions and the rules of the garage or supplier of LPG.

Does it? Not on mine, its says ..Only to be filled by Calor etc.

Therefore they have stated that the terms are as what Jim stated, "Only to be filled by Calor".

The issue here is not the legality or not, as they stand they are certainly not lawful and their use regardless of what people have posted is against the terms of the garage and of Calor, of that there is no doubt. Using them knowing the above and putting people at risk. To quote from Calor.
"
Calor Gas Limited has issued a safety warning following reports of unlawful and dangerous filling of its portable LPG cylinders at self-service Autogas refuelling sites.
Highly dangerous

Calor has become aware of increasing numbers of people using adaptors to fill LPG cylinders from Autogas dispensers. This practice is not only unlawful but also highly dangerous as there is a strong probability of leaks occurring and cylinders being overfilled.

The filling of LPG cylinders is potentially an extremely hazardous activity, and safe filling requires appropriate expertise and training of operators, use of certified equipment, safe working procedures and a safe environment. Automotive LPG filling stations incorporate safety measures to ensure the safe refuelling of vehicles but they do not include all of the necessary safety elements required for filling LPG cylinders. Furthermore, commercial LPG is supplied in two forms – propane and butane – and filling a cylinder with the wrong type of LPG can lead to serious appliance malfunction and can cause safety devices to fail.

Members of the public who refill LPG cylinders using Autogas refuelling equipment not only create a serious risk to their own safety and the safety of others, but are also contravening UK Health and Safety Regulations, Weights and Measures Regulations and Consumer Safety legislation. These Regulations impose important legal duties on the site operator to ensure the safety of both their employees and members of the public. In the event of an accident as a result of this type of activity, the site operator could be liable to prosecution. Calor is therefore urging Autogas refuelling site operators to be vigilant and take appropriate action to prevent the unlawful and potentially dangerous re-filling cylinders in this manner.

Dr Terry Ritter, Calor’s Head of Health and Safety said “The public might think it is an easy and convenient way to top up a cylinder, but they are actually putting themselves and others at risk of serious injury or even death. Calor has taken successful court action against individuals for unauthorised filling and will continue to do so.”

Reading the above, you may well be in breach of "UK Health and Safety Regulations, Weights and Measures Regulations and Consumer Safety legislation".

I personaly would not use one, the 'risks' are too high.

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[laneside]

Does it? Not on mine, its says ..Only to be filled by Calor etc.

Sorry Jim is correct but when you get total newbies on here that cannot understand why their 240 volt does not work of hook up and similar questions, saying one of these is safe is a step too far in my opinion

 

[vwalan]

calor arent the only autogas suppliers though .
many have no connection with calor .
almost a mafia is what calor act like.

 

[SomeoneElse]

Calor Gas Limited has issued a safety warning following reports of unlawful and dangerous filling of its portable LPG cylinders at self-service Autogas refuelling sites.

AKA - A revenue protection notice!

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[Jim]

Sorry Jim is correct but when you get total newbies on here that cannot understand why their 240 volt does not work of hook up and similar questions, saying one of these is safe is a step too far in my opinion

HI Alan, I'm not saying they are safe, I've never used one, probably never would, but I don't think its illegal or unlawful. No doubt you are in breach of Calor's terms and conditions, and no doubt if you get it wrong it could get messy but I don't think you are breaking a law if you refill your own bottle.

 

[laneside]

HI Alan, I'm not saying they are safe, I've never used one, probably never would, but I don't think its illegal or unlawful. No doubt you are in breach of Calor's terms and conditions, and no doubt if you get it wrong it could get messy but I don't think you are breaking a law if you refill your own bottle.

Sorry Jim I should have said you were correct in what you said regarding the wording on the Calor bottle....... Only to be re-filled by Calor

 

[Barclaybasher]

4.5kg Calor refill - price £16.75 - on Calor's website

Traveled 5 miles to 'Calor stockist' listed on the Calor website - £19.99 !

So annoyed I rang Calor - they said no control over price charged by others - they could nothing wrong in advertising the price at £16.75 with no warning that you could be charged more

Rip off !

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