Are These Things Legal?

scotjimland

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scotjimland

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Not fishing Jim, just saw this whilst looking for a two-way bottle valve, so thought to ask.

No probs.. I thought you were on a fishing trip, been argued about on here so often..

My take..

Not Illegal ... safe if you know EXACTLY what you are doing.. I've used.

If you have to ask how to use.. dangerous...

Most forecourt operators will stop you if they see you using.. the reason why bottles are filled in the back of pick-up trucks .. and car boots

Calor say they will prosecute if they catch anyone trying to refill one of their bottles..
 
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scotjimland

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Found the Calor waring

Calor warns about unlawful filling of LPG cylinders at Autogas refuelling sites
Posted on: Monday, August 19, 2013

Calor Gas Limited has issued a safety warning following reports of unlawful and dangerous filling of its portable LPG cylinders at self-service Autogas refuelling sites.
Highly dangerous

Calor has become aware of increasing numbers of people using adaptors to fill LPG cylinders from Autogas dispensers. This practice is not only unlawful but also highly dangerous as there is a strong probability of leaks occurring and cylinders being overfilled.

The filling of LPG cylinders is potentially an extremely hazardous activity, and safe filling requires appropriate expertise and training of operators, use of certified equipment, safe working procedures and a safe environment. Automotive LPG filling stations incorporate safety measures to ensure the safe refuelling of vehicles but they do not include all of the necessary safety elements required for filling LPG cylinders. Furthermore, commercial LPG is supplied in two forms – propane and butane – and filling a cylinder with the wrong type of LPG can lead to serious appliance malfunction and can cause safety devices to fail.

Members of the public who refill LPG cylinders using Autogas refuelling equipment not only create a serious risk to their own safety and the safety of others, but are also contravening UK Health and Safety Regulations, Weights and Measures Regulations and Consumer Safety legislation. These Regulations impose important legal duties on the site operator to ensure the safety of both their employees and members of the public. In the event of an accident as a result of this type of activity, the site operator could be liable to prosecution. Calor is therefore urging Autogas refuelling site operators to be vigilant and take appropriate action to prevent the unlawful and potentially dangerous re-filling cylinders in this manner.

Dr Terry Ritter, Calor’s Head of Health and Safety said “The public might think it is an easy and convenient way to top up a cylinder, but they are actually putting themselves and others at risk of serious injury or even death. Calor has taken successful court action against individuals for unauthorised filling and will continue to do so.”

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OP
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With LPG at the pumps at around 70p per ltr, and a bottle of gas now having risen to about £28.00, (13 kg), then the same would cost around 18 quid from a garage pump. Strange, when you consider full VAT is charged on LPG for vehicles, but at only 8%(?) when used for cooking, ie, bottled gas. Someone is making a hefty buck, Calor for instance.......
 
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May just go for a couple of Gasflow bottles then.

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Snowbird

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Legal....Definitely not. Desirable....If you know what you are doing and are confident in what you are doing...Definitely... As with most things in life, its entirely up to the individual. Calor thankfully do not have a monopoly on my bottles as they don't belong to them, they are German.
 
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Legal....Definitely not. Desirable....If you know what you are doing and are confident in what you are doing...Definitely... As with most things in life, its entirely up to the individual. Calor thankfully do not have a monopoly on my bottles as they don't belong to them, they are German.

Thanks Dave. Nice to have your expert, (and much appreciated), opinion. :inlove::inlove:

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Why do they sell LPG by the litre, but cylinders go by weight ? Anyone know what volume 1kg of LPG equates to ?
 
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Only 65p a litre at my nearest garage, so filled up, took 20L so must have saved around a £ :emo:. Not really a worthwhile saving but was going to top up anyway.
smiley irrelevant but I like that one.

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Been using one for a couple of years. I only ever fill an empty bottle and put in just less than they show on the included conversion chart...BUSBY:cautious:
 

Wildman

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As already said, not illegal, no different to filling a gaslow bottle. The pump will switch off when 80% limit has been reached so no worries there. a decent adapter will have the 80% number of litre stamped on it anyway so easy anyway. I used one for years before I got a van with a fixed underslung tank. Gas companies try to ban their use because they are charging double the cost of refilling, a monopoly simple as that. It's years since I bought a bottle of gas so when I had to replace a small 3.5kg bottle recently I was horrified that it cost £15.99 for a refill, a massive ripoff.

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callumwa

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With LPG at the pumps at around 70p per ltr, and a bottle of gas now having risen to about £28.00, (13 kg), then the same would cost around 18 quid from a garage pump. Strange, when you consider full VAT is charged on LPG for vehicles, but at only 8%(?) when used for cooking, ie, bottled gas. Someone is making a hefty buck, Calor for instance.......

I have 2 x 13 kg Calor Bottles in my vans gas locker.
26 litres at the pumps costs approximately £0.70/l = £18.20

My local Calor supplier charges £20.95 for for a 13 kg refill.
So for a saving of £2.75 per 13kg bottle is it worth it. :RollEyes:

Though I can see it being handy in an emergency...........
 
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As already said, not illegal, no different to filling a gaslow bottle. The pump will switch off when 80% limit has been reached so no worries there. a decent adapter will have the 80% number of litre stamped on it anyway so easy anyway. I used one for years before I got a van with a fixed underslung tank. Gas companies try to ban their use because they are charging double the cost of refilling, a monopoly simple as that. It's years since I bought a bottle of gas so when I had to replace a small 3.5kg bottle recently I was horrified that it cost £15.99 for a refill, a massive ripoff.

The pumps don't switch of when the 80% level has been reached, the pumps switch off when they sense the pressure jump caused by the float valves in a proper lpg tank switching the gas off at the 80% level. LPG bottles don't have this float valve and will continue to fill until they are totally full of liquid LPG, which then has no room for expansion, except by blowing the relief valve or splitting the bottle.

Ian
 
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I have 2 x 13 kg Calor Bottles in my vans gas locker.
26 litres at the pumps costs approximately £0.70/l = £18.20

My local Calor supplier charges £20.95 for for a 13 kg refill.
So for a saving of £2.75 per 13kg bottle is it worth it. :RollEyes:

Though I can see it being handy in an emergency...........

Your lucky! a 13kg bottle of prope is now £28.00 around here. :eek:

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GJH

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I have 2 x 13 kg Calor Bottles in my vans gas locker.
26 litres at the pumps costs approximately £0.70/l = £18.20

My local Calor supplier charges £20.95 for for a 13 kg refill.
So for a saving of £2.75 per 13kg bottle is it worth it. :RollEyes:

Though I can see it being handy in an emergency...........
You're lucky Callum. Normal Calor price is £27.25 (6Kg are £20.75).

Price isn't the only factor though. With proper refillable bottles you can top up any time you happen to be passing a supplier and don't have the problem of having to change over when a bottle is empty.
 

GJH

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As already said, not illegal, no different to filling a gaslow bottle. The pump will switch off when 80% limit has been reached so no worries there. a decent adapter will have the 80% number of litre stamped on it anyway so easy anyway. I used one for years before I got a van with a fixed underslung tank. Gas companies try to ban their use because they are charging double the cost of refilling, a monopoly simple as that. It's years since I bought a bottle of gas so when I had to replace a small 3.5kg bottle recently I was horrified that it cost £15.99 for a refill, a massive ripoff.
The products referred to in the OP are not "decent adapters" though. Even the listing says "To avoid overfilling be most careful! Remember always refill only total empty bottles!" - indicating that it is a fallacy that "The pump will switch off when 80% limit has been reached so no worries there".

Is there really any such thing as a "decent adapter" which automatically cuts off at 80%? If so, exactly how do they work?

People may have used these devices for years without a problem but all that means is they have been lucky. Use of these adapters is banned by supplying stations because they are dangerous not for any profit motive. If it were the latter they would also ban the adapters used with Alugas cylinders - they do not because Alugas cylinders have the 80% over fill protection valve incorporated in the cylinder.

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scotjimland

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Is there really any such thing as a "decent adapter" which automatically cuts off at 80%? If so, exactly how do they work?

No such adapter exists...

however, in defense of those who 'break the law' by using them.. the 80% fill does not need to be calculated .. this has already been determined by the bottle supplier.

2lt of gas is equal to 1kg , so if you are filling an EMPTY 6kg bottle, it takes 12lt .. that is 80% of the bottle capacity .

When full time. 2008/9 .. and on a site for a few months in winter, I had a 19kg Propane bottle and refilled at the local garage with 38lt ... attendant never bothered.. since then things have tightened up and I doubt you would get away doing that today .

If you want refillable bottles, my advice is to buy the approved kit.
 
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If you want refillable bottles, my advice is to buy the approved kit.

Or move to Canada or New Zealand, in both these countries its normal to refill plain steel cylinders. Not by the use but the station operator, The cylinder is weighed to determine how much gas is still in the cylinder and then the amount of gas to bring it up to 80% is added. Simple no wasted gas, you don't run out by letting the cylinder get completely empty. My friend in Canada says he refills his BBQ cylinder once a season. In New Zealand The LPG pump includes a set of scales and automatically calculates the amount of gas to bring the cylinder up to full charge.

Recharging LPG cylinders can be handled differently. Remember rip off Britain is alive and well, its living in Calor.
 

GJH

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No such adapter exists...

however, in defense of those who 'break the law' by using them.. the 80% fill does not need to be calculated .. this has already been determined by the bottle supplier.

2lt of gas is equal to 1kg , so if you are filling an EMPTY 6kg bottle, it takes 12lt .. that is 80% of the bottle capacity .

When full time. 2008/9 .. and on a site for a few months in winter, I had a 19kg Propane bottle and refilled at the local garage with 38lt ... attendant never bothered.. since then things have tightened up and I doubt you would get away doing that today .

If you want refillable bottles, my advice is to buy the approved kit.

Or move to Canada or New Zealand, in both these countries its normal to refill plain steel cylinders. Not by the use but the station operator, The cylinder is weighed to determine how much gas is still in the cylinder and then the amount of gas to bring it up to 80% is added. Simple no wasted gas, you don't run out by letting the cylinder get completely empty. My friend in Canada says he refills his BBQ cylinder once a season. In New Zealand The LPG pump includes a set of scales and automatically calculates the amount of gas to bring the cylinder up to full charge.

Recharging LPG cylinders can be handled differently. Remember rip off Britain is alive and well, its living in Calor.
The operative words highlighted - different from the intention of the seller in the OP. The adapters are being sold for use by untrained people who may well not have the sense to ensure how much gas is left in the bottle and to calculate what the 80% cut off is.

It doesn't matter what happens in other countries, in the UK Jim's advice to buy the approved kit is the only sensible approach.

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