Advice on Lithium or just some different Lead Acid Batteries? (1 Viewer)

[zac]

I will hold off on getting more solar even though i have plenty of space. At least until i see how this all works out. Been a very informative but also confusing discussion. Never knew there were so many different batteries / configurations etc. Appreciate the assistance from all anyway.

 

[two]

A wise decision, unless you have plenty of dosh to splash about.
Take one step at a time.
If you don't have one, a battery monitor might help you to understand your 'leccy usage and observe battery performance.

 

[Basildog]

I will hold off on getting more solar even though i have plenty of space. At least until i see how this all works out. Been a very informative but also confusing discussion. Never knew there were so many different batteries / configurations etc. Appreciate the assistance from all anyway.

We have been doing it for a long time and I always took notice of information about batteries from the boating world not motorhome owners.
One big problem is the massive difference in useage between owners , say a full timer using blown air and tv to someone with a gas fire and no tv , then you get the 2 weeks away in summer with 3 or 4 weekends away brigade who park the van in storage from October until April.
We have full timed and never bothered with an inverter but many can’t live without it so the different ways we use our vans is vast .
I still liked my Trojan t105s the best as a good battery.

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[Snapper]

Had a lithium battery to replace 2 heavy lead acids fitted by Damien at Road Pro. Excellent investment and works down to 10% charge. Lead acid fails at 55% and its much smaller and lighter.

 

[gwyntaxi]

No weight issues, thanks

 

[gwyntaxi]

Hi,
If you got no weight issues I would save your money, even if you had to buy a pair of Exide 650 every 2years it would be many years before you spent out the cost of the Lithium one, those who are buying them now are paying for the cost of the research & develop
-ement that gone into them so I say stick with lead acid.

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[MickyP]

Is it possible to replace 2 x 95 ah AGM batteries with 1 lithium battery say 120ah would I get more power. I.e. not drain as quick. I have 120 w solar panel and a compressor fridge.

 

[Minxy]

Is it possible to replace 2 x 95 ah AGM batteries with 1 lithium battery say 120ah would I get more power. I.e. not drain as quick. I have 120 w solar panel and a compressor fridge.

You'll drain the power as quickly regardless of what batteries you have, it's how quickly it is replenished that's the important bit. If you mean will you be able to use more of the available 'stored' power then as AGM batteries can go down to 30% discharge so 2 x 95ah would give you 133ah whereas a lithium discharged to say 90% would give 108ah, in which case the AGM win on that front, however such large discharges are not recommended for long battery life.

 

[Lenny HB]

Is it possible to replace 2 x 95 ah AGM batteries with 1 lithium battery say 120ah would I get more power. I.e. not drain as quick. I have 120 w solar panel and a compressor fridge.

Main advantages of Lithium is the fast recharge rate, if you go for Lithium to take advantage of them you need to fit 300 to 400 watts of solar and a good B2B. Then you would be OK.

AGM batteries can go down to 30% discharge

Best not to discharge them below 50% they are nowhere near as robust as Gels.

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[cmcardle75]

Is it possible to replace 2 x 95 ah AGM batteries with 1 lithium battery say 120ah would I get more power. I.e. not drain as quick. I have 120 w solar panel and a compressor fridge.

The Lithium are slightly more electrically efficient. However, your proposed size of battery will give a similar amount of actual storage as your previous system. If you're finding it is not enough, you'll need to improve the charging. A 120W solar panel is quite miserly for a compressor fridge setup if you have no other charging system. If you drive around a lot (i.e. an hour a day or more), get a large B2B, which could keep up with the compressor fridge. If you don't drive much, a larger solar system will help for half the year. If you use it in winter, without moving around much, you're out of luck. The energy has to come from somewhere. You'll need an EHU or a well chosen generator and charger (one that will charge your batteries quickly and can then be turned off, not noisily chunder away for days providing just a trickle charge).

 

[jongood]

The Lithium are slightly more electrically efficient. However, your proposed size of battery will give a similar amount of actual storage as your previous system. If you're finding it is not enough, you'll need to improve the charging. A 120W solar panel is quite miserly for a compressor fridge setup if you have no other charging system. If you drive around a lot (i.e. an hour a day or more), get a large B2B, which could keep up with the compressor fridge. If you don't drive much, a larger solar system will help for half the year. If you use it in winter, without moving around much, you're out of luck. The energy has to come from somewhere. You'll need an EHU or a well chosen generator and charger (one that will charge your batteries quickly and can then be turned off, not noisily chunder away for days providing just a trickle charge).

I suppose with Lithium, these would actually work, still noisy though

SUPERCHARGER 12 VOLT 95 AMP PETROL 12V BATTERY CHARGER MOTORHOME BOAT | eBay

95 AMP 12 VOLT OUTPUT 8.3 AMP 12 VOLT OUTPUT. Consumption Approx 0.7lts PETROL /HR. 240 VOLT STANDARD. battery and to prevent overcharging and possible. 85 WATT SOLAR PANEL 5.0. Super quiet exhaust muffler.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[cmcardle75]

I suppose with Lithium, these would actually work, still noisy though

SUPERCHARGER 12 VOLT 95 AMP PETROL 12V BATTERY CHARGER MOTORHOME BOAT | eBay

95 AMP 12 VOLT OUTPUT 8.3 AMP 12 VOLT OUTPUT. Consumption Approx 0.7lts PETROL /HR. 240 VOLT STANDARD. battery and to prevent overcharging and possible. 85 WATT SOLAR PANEL 5.0. Super quiet exhaust muffler.

www.ebay.co.uk

Yes, that looks suitable. Would recharge that 100Ah lithium in little over an hour. Obviously, you'd need somewhere suitable to run it. People running gennies on campsites or car parks aren't generally soliciting popularity.

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[Ivory55]

Yes, that looks suitable. Would recharge that 100Ah lithium in little over an hour. Obviously, you'd need somewhere suitable to run it. People running gennies on campsites or car parks aren't generally soliciting popularity.

I guess it’s down to the rules of site and the warden, if he says no in the car park then it’s a no . Other than that crack on.

 

[two]

Trying to guess how long a battery will keep you going could be regarded much the same as a pint of milk:
A large container would keep you going longer but it's not an issue if there's a shop around the corner.
Putting aside the possibility that milk could go off if kept too long, you'll still run out.
A larger container gives you a little more freedom before you need to find more but you will have to replenish what you consume.
If you move often, have EHU, or a good supply of solar, you may not need a large store at all.
I have just put solar on my roof so that we could stay for longer in one place and my limited battery capacity is not an issue because the battery is back to 100% by mid-morning (360W of panels). Of course that might be rather different if I was further North in the middle of Winter but a bigger 'tank' wouldn't help at all if I couldn't collect my requirements by one method or another.

 

[PhilandMena]

Main advantages of Lithium is the fast recharge rate, if you go for Lithium to take advantage of them you need to fit 300 to 400 watts of solar and a good B2B. Then you would be OK.

Best not to discharge them below 50% they are nowhere near as robust as Gels.

Fairly sure you can take pure lead carbon AGM batteries well below 50 % DOD (and repeatedly too) without causing any damage.

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[Minxy]

Fairly sure you can take pure lead carbon AGM batteries well below 50 % DOD (and repeatedly too) without causing any damage.

You can, as with other batteries, take them down to the minimum stated by the manufacturer but it can affect their longevity.

 

[Raul]

Then you need the luxury of few hrs of absorb. The deeper you discharge the longer the absorb. That, only if you have a good bulk rate. If not, the charging will take even longer. So long that you will not be charged ready for the next discharge cycle. A lead taken down to 40% SOC can take in excess of 8hrs recharge, providing you are starting with a good C/5 bulk rate. How many meet this criteria? Most have a bit of solar for few low loads and maintaining a very shallow discharge.
There are pro’s and cons on lead, but like anything else, progress will follow its course eventually.

 

[Lenny HB]

Fairly sure you can take pure lead carbon AGM batteries well below 50 % DOD (and repeatedly too) without causing any damage.

In theory yes but in practice they won't survive very long.

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[Northernraider]

I thought lithiums don't need to be maintained or topped up or have i got this wrong. Mine when not in use is usually left on ehu at home but when away they get used a lot and recently i have noticed the gone down to 12v which i now know is pretty much flat. If i get lithium i am assuming i can use for longer before they run out (that's my basic understanding). I have never run out of power since owning mh but it must of come close if they go down to this level.

Its not good to leave your van hooked up to 240v all the time ite better to just hook it up once every couple of weeks if not being used.

 

[PhilandMena]

In theory yes but in practice they won't survive very long.

The data sheet from Victron pure lead carbon battery.
Replacing the active material of the negative plate by a lead carbon composite potentially reduces sulfation and improves charge acceptance of the negative plate.

The advantages of lead carbon therefore are:

• Less sulfation in case of partial state-of-charge operation.
• Lower charge voltage and therefore higher efficiency and less corrosion of the positive plate.
• And the overall result is improved cycle life.

Failure modes of flat plate VRLA lead acid batteries in case of intensive cycling

The most common failure modes are:

• Softening or shedding of the active material. During discharge the lead oxide (PbO2) of the positive plate is transformed into lead sulfate (PbSO4), and back to lead oxide during charging. Frequent cycling will reduce cohesion of the positive plate material due to the higher volume of lead sulfate compared to lead oxide.
• Corrosion of the grid of the positive plate. This corrosion reaction accelerates at the end of the charge process due to the, necessary, presence of sulfuric acid.
• Sulfation of the active material of the negative plate. During discharge the lead (Pb) of the negative plate is also transformed into lead sulfate (PbSO4). When left in a low state-of-charge, the lead sulfate crystals on the negative plate grow and harden and form and impenetrable layer that cannot be reconverted into active material. The result is decreasing capacity, until the battery becomes useless.

It takes time to recharge a lead acid battery

Ideally, a lead acid battery should be charged a rate not exceeding 0,2C, and the bulk charge phase should be followed by eight hours of absorption charge. Increasing charge current and charge voltage will shorten recharge time at the expense of reduced service life due to temperature increase and faster corrosion of the positive plate due to the higher charge voltage.

Lead carbon: better partial state-of-charge performance, more cycles, and higher efficiency

Replacing the active material of the negative plate by a lead carbon composite potentially reduces sulfation and improves charge acceptance of the negative plate.

The advantages of lead carbon therefore are:

• Less sulfation in case of partial state-of-charge operation.
• Lower charge voltage and therefore higher efficiency and less corrosion of the positive plate.
• And the overall result is improved cycle life.

Tests have shown that our lead carbon batteries do withstand at least five hundred 100% DoD cycles.

The tests consist of a daily discharge to 10,8V with I = 0,2C20, followed by approximately two hours rest in discharged condition, and then a recharge with I = 0,2C20.

(Several manufacturers of lead carbon batteries claim a cycle life of up to two thousand 90% DoD cycles. We have not yet been able to confirm these claims)

 

[Lenny HB]

The data sheet from Victron pure lead carbon battery.

Phil you appear to have brought Pure Lead Carbon AGM into the equation while we have been referring to standard AGM (which are a pile of poo) I doubt if there are many Motorhomes with Victron AGM's most will be Banner or Varta.

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[Raul]

Unfortunately, lead carbon has come to the party a bit to late. That’s my opinion, no doubt they wil have a small industry niche.

 

[PhilandMena]

Phil you appear to have brought Pure Lead Carbon AGM into the equation while we have been referring to standard AGM (which are a pile of poo) I doubt if there are many Motorhomes with Victron AGM's most will be Banner or Varta.

Yes Lenny! I did introduce this option when responding to a post you made. See my post #135. As the thread title states :

Advice on Lithium or just some different Lead Acid Batteries?​

I thought I was on safe ground mentioning the option and benefits of pure lead carbon batteries for the consideration of others. I did not intend to hijack the thread or throw it of course !

​

 

[Raul]

Unfortunately, lead carbon has come to the party a bit to late. That’s my opinion, no doubt they wil have a small industry niche.

Actually I’m gonna take that back a little. For the ease of integration, the lead carbon mentioned by PhilandMena is a pretty good option.

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[PhilandMena]

1.Does anyone use the exide 650's and have they found them better than the banner's which look as though they have a bad reputation?


Any help appreciated.

I installed 2 x Exide ET 650 batteries in 2019 and I'm still using them. They are100 AH not 115. However, they weigh 26Kg each which is a good indication. The more lead the better the performance (as a rule of thumb). I have solar and these are rarely discharged below 80% so it is difficult to give an accurate performance even after 3 years. I do a combination of wild camping and using Hook up and they are still performing well which is what I would expect from a battery that is rated at 350 cycles @ 50% D.O.D. Exide produce there own batteries and have a good reputation and that's why I choose these when replacing my last batteries (Banner). You may want to look at pure lead carbon batteries which are a little heaver still and coming in under £300.00 each. Some claiming to give over 3000 cycles and some claiming they can be discharged completely and recharged with no ill effect to the battery. This will almost certainly be my next choice of battery..

 

[PhilandMena]

I should have checked the date of that first post !

 

[Gerryatric71]

I have just invested in the Yuasa L36 EFB battery as the best of the non techie batteries. They were recommended to me by aandncaravans.co.uk who have a wealth of independent advice on all things 12v and more. I am hoping that they are good as expected.

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[Minxy]

I should have checked the date of that first post !

So should I!