Advice on Lithium or just some different Lead Acid Batteries?

Z

zac

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In our MH we have 2 x 100ah banner batteries which have worked for the last 18 months with no issues, recently i have been paying more attention to the voltage via the control panel (which i know may not be accurate). I have seen the voltage go down to 12v a lot of the time which i understand means the battery is then discharged to 25% (seen that on another thread). We have never lost power as such and everything still seems to work but i think that may just be luck rather than anything else as if that low then it must be on the brink of going caput.

Now i have been speaking to the very helpful Nick@Vanbitz and some of the suggestions are to consider Lithium batteries. Now this would be ok but the cost of these are astronomical compared to the lead acid (different tech of course but huge difference). Currently i have agreed to get a B2B charger fitted along with a Victron BMV702 battery monitor but the batteries are still undecided. If i had no worry around money then of course Lithium but that is a lot of money to spend out. I had a look online and there was an article by aandcaravan something or another testing a load of batteries and they rated the exide 650 115ah battery to be a good heavy duty one and these are quite cheap £120 each but will this solve my problem? I know a lot depends on usage and we do have an 1800w pure sine inverter that is used sometimes for a few minutes(nothing really longer). We have never not had a fully charged battery when the sun has gone down

In approx 3 years time we are looking at doing some long term touring so if this would be the basis of my decision then the lithium would probably be better but the damn cost again.

I know this is a minefield having read a lot of threads on here around the same issue, it is totally baffling for myself not having any technical back ground around this at all.

So i suppose what I am trying to find out is

1.Does anyone use the exide 650's and have they found them better than the banner's which look as though they have a bad reputation?
2.Is lithium really the way to go and why are they so damn expensive?
3.Is there any other batteries i should be considering? there gels but the article i mentioned earlier suggests these are not a good match if using an inverter.

Any help appreciated.
 
Lithium is not magic, just a different set of chemicals. It is considerably lighter but if weight is not your problem don't waste your cash.
 
hilldweller said:
Lithium is not magic, just a different set of chemicals. It is considerably lighter but if weight is not your problem don't waste your cash.
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No weight issues, thanks
 
I don't have a definitive answer, but we have just had Lithium fitted after a looong discussion with @nickvanbitz . As it is brand new and we have not been out since, I cannot make any comparisons just yet, but after a lot of research and discussions with Nick, we opted for them. Yes very expensive, but we are heavy users and our AGM's were again on there way out after 18 - 20 months or so. As our travel hours were short as well and all year round, we never really replaced what we used and therefore it was more than likely operator error by keep battering them. We may have been OK by just fitting the B2B, but as our MH is for the long term, we will certainly end up paying out a lot more in AGMs then Lithium. Initial cost to long term cost, probably better with Lithium, but of course it is a lot initially for a very long term reward. We have as well saved over 15Kg in weight and the one battery and B2B fit under my seat now. I believe if you can do it, then Lithium is the way to go, but you may well be fine with AGM / Gels and the B2B.
 
Zigisla said:
I don't have a definitive answer, but we have just had Lithium fitted after a looong discussion with @nickvanbitz . As it is brand new and we have not been out since, I cannot make any comparisons just yet, but after a lot of research and discussions with Nick, we opted for them. Yes very expensive, but we are heavy users and our AGM's were again on there way out after 18 - 20 months or so. As our travel hours were short as well and all year round, we never really replaced what we used and therefore it was more than likely operator error by keep battering them. We may have been OK by just fitting the B2B, but as our MH is for the long term, we will certainly end up paying out a lot more in AGMs then Lithium. Initial cost to long term cost, probably better with Lithium, but of course it is a lot initially for a very long term reward. We have as well saved over 15Kg in weight and the one battery and B2B fit under my seat now. I believe if you can do it, then Lithium is the way to go, but you may well be fine with AGM / Gels and the B2B.
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If you are not travelling far between halts you could still need a B2B unless the installation of the lithium included a magic charger of some sort. :)

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Zigisla said:
I don't have a definitive answer, but we have just had Lithium fitted after a looong discussion with @nickvanbitz . As it is brand new and we have not been out since, I cannot make any comparisons just yet, but after a lot of research and discussions with Nick, we opted for them. Yes very expensive, but we are heavy users and our AGM's were again on there way out after 18 - 20 months or so. As our travel hours were short as well and all year round, we never really replaced what we used and therefore it was more than likely operator error by keep battering them. We may have been OK by just fitting the B2B, but as our MH is for the long term, we will certainly end up paying out a lot more in AGMs then Lithium. Initial cost to long term cost, probably better with Lithium, but of course it is a lot initially for a very long term reward. We have as well saved over 15Kg in weight and the one battery and B2B fit under my seat now. I believe if you can do it, then Lithium is the way to go, but you may well be fine with AGM / Gels and the B2B.
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Great many thanks
 
To be honest, I don't think that there is a right or wrong in this as everyone uses their motorhomes differently, has different requirements, prioritises purchases differently and has different financial positions, so every decision is a mixture of an individuals personal circumstances. I agree with Brian, in as much that on my last camper I had six 135Ah lead acid batteries.

The camper weighed about 10,000 Kg's had loads of space and no payload issues

We took delivery of our new camper recently and have deliberately kept under 7500Kg and is under 9m so really tiny by comparison. The locker that houses the two 110Ah batteries also houses the hydraulics for the leveling system, and the on road charging equipment, so no room for extra batteries, and at about 30Kg each, and for once, I have to keep an eye on payload so doubling the usable capacity whilst having the actual weight for me was the way to go.

Regarding cost it was easier for me as I didn't really have another option and having planned this just after we ordered the camper was still at the "Can't take it with you" stage I'd entered when we agreed to buy the thing lol

I suppose what I think it comes down to are two main things. Last October, on the Van Bitz exhibition unit at the NEC show, there was one particular conversation that stuck in my mind. A lady had five or six expensive cameras around her neck. We were talking as she had a small VW camper, with an elevating roof that the dealer had quoted her £1200 for a solar install (apparently the dealer had told her it was a "special on") She had absolutely no extra space or payload for an additional batteries so we had ended up talking about Lithium.

Her biggest issue was the idea of paying £1200 for a battery. I tried to get her to think of it as a solution to a major issue, the major issue being that the lady just didn't have enough battery capacity to do what she wanted to do. £1200 on a solar panel? Fine!

Fine despite despite me trying to explain that the chance of getting any significant benefit in February, in Scotland was about zero. I suggested that she would be much better off buying a generator! "Nope absolutely not! Hate the noisy smelly things" was the answer to that.

During the conversation I had mentioned that a had bought my wife a camera, for her recent birthday, which was the same model as on of the ones the lady had. "Does she like it?" I was asked I had to say that Lyn hadn't even used it as she tended just to take photos with her phone. The lady was quite adamant that you cannot take photos with a phone, "snaps" yes, Photos "No" as you have to have the right equipment for the job. I obviously couldn't resist saying that it was the same with batteries! So perception of the product plays a big part in the "Should we?/ Shouldn't we? decision making process

The other main reason has to be financial, as lets be honest, other than the actual cost there is no actual downside to having Lithium batteries. We have many customers that have traditional batteries installed and then tell us that they wished that they had pushed the boat out and had the Lithium batteries, but as far as I know none of our customers have said that they have regretted having the Lithium setup installed.
 
The price of one lithium is going to buy a lot of replacement lead acids over the years and a failed lead acid charger will be a fraction the cost of a failed lithium charger.
10 years maybe when the price has become sensible.
 
pappajohn said:
The price of one lithium is going to buy a lot of replacement lead acids over the years and a failed lead acid charger will be a fraction the cost of a failed lithium charger.
10 years maybe when the price has become sensible.
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The price of one Morello motorhome would buy a lot of Elddis motorhomes over the years, and failed Elddis components will be a fraction of the cost of a failed Morello component. They both do the same job!

As I say, everyone has different criteria when making a decision
 
eddievanbitz said:
The five year warranty is a lot longer than the length of time a lot of our customers keep their motorhomes as they change them every couple of years lol
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Definitely false economy fitting lithium then.
Even a dirt cheap LA would see two years use
 
pappajohn said:
The price of one lithium is going to buy a lot of replacement lead acids over the years and a failed lead acid charger will be a fraction the cost of a failed lithium charger..
Click to expand...

And lets not forget, you can get LA replacements anywhere, instantly. Try that with lithium.

It's very early days for leisure lithium, time for some disasters yet especially with a battery system that needs respect, we don't see a lot of respect for batteries in here.
 
DBK said:
If you are not travelling far between halts you could still need a B2B unless the installation of the lithium included a magic charger of some sort. :)
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Sorry, meant to quote the OP! :)

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pappajohn said:
Definitely false economy fitting lithium then.
Even a dirt cheap LA would see two years use
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lol OK then other than cost what is there that is bad about Lithium?

Lithium leisure is here to stay, five years ago I would agree, three years ago we were selling them at £2000 each now we are selling them at £2000 a pair

You won't be able to order a high end motorhome without lithiums before long, and then it filters down
 
@zac we had a Rapido 10001 I fitted 3 x110 banners all under the seat as original also a 45amp B2B in there as well a bit tight but worked well for three years plus, a 2 kw inverter was fitted on the other side of the battery compartment as to be close to the batteries.
The B2B managed all of the charging never realty used hook up also 250w of solar.

If you do go the route of B2B make sure they fit a relay to disconnect the standard van charging to the batteries when the engine is running I used the +D to power the relay.

We found this setup simple and reliable and very effective
 
eddievanbitz said:
........three years ago we were selling them at £2000 each now we are selling them at £2000 a pair
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If their prices halve by 50% every three years Eddie then can you put my name down for a couple in 2028.

I'll owe you £125 each by my reckoning.:D

Cheers.
 
pappajohn said:
The price of one lithium is going to buy a lot of replacement lead acids over the years and a failed lead acid charger will be a fraction the cost of a failed lithium charger.
10 years maybe when the price has become sensible.
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Your argument may be sustainable if money were the ONLY consideration in the decision, but as Eddie has stated in different ways in 2 posts, the decision is not just money its the flexibility that Lithium gives you from all its virtues. There are those that beat the hell out of their batteries to sub 50% SOC on a weekly basis, do not regularly maintain full charge etc who fundamentally would benefit from Lithium but simply dont see it.

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SteveandDenise said:
If you do go the route of B2B make sure they fit a relay to disconnect the standard van charging to the batteries when the engine is running I used the +D to power the relay.
Click to expand...

Or we just disconnect the existing one by removing the supply fuse :whistle2:
 
eddievanbitz said:
lol OK then other than cost what is there that is bad about Lithium?

Lithium leisure is here to stay, five years ago I would agree, three years ago we were selling them at £2000 each now we are selling them at £2000 a pair

You won't be able to order a high end motorhome without lithiums before long, and then it filters down
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That's what a lot of car makers did to power their horrible stop start system with AGM batteries.
A lot of car makers are now removing them as they're proving not suitable for purpose.

I'm not saying lithium aren't suitable.... Lead acid batteries have been fitted to vehicles since vehicles were invented, they've been the industry standard the world over for over 120 years.
Lithium are still wearing nappies and learning to crawl.
 
eddievanbitz said:
Or we just disconnect the existing one by removing the supply fuse :whistle2:
Click to expand...

Well I was not sure about that Eddie as my solar was through the Cbe unit and shared the supply to the leisure batteries and I was not 100% certain,
So took the simple option I knew would do the job,(y)
 
And I saw a woman in the paper the other day with her Hoover she had had for over 50 years and still used it every day, but most would prefer their Dysons!
 
sallylillian said:
And I saw a woman in the paper the other day with her Hoover she had had for over 50 years and still used it every day, but most would prefer their Dysons!
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Wonder how many of todays Dysons will still be running in 50 years? Oh, I already know... None... Because they will have been superceded so many times and parts won't have been available for donkeys years.

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SteveandDenise said:
Well I was not sure about that Eddie as my solar was through the Cbe unit and shared the supply to the leisure batteries and I was not 100% certain,
So took the simple option I knew would do the job,(y)
Click to expand...
Always sensible (y) and good advice
 
pappajohn said:
Wonder how many of todays Dysons will still be running in 50 years? Oh, I already know... None... Because they will have been superceded so many times and parts won't have been available for donkeys years.
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I still have an original Apple :rofl::rofl::rofl:
download (1).jpg
 
Agms have shown they are generally not suitable for leisure batteries and I really dont think lithiams have been out as leisure batteries long enough to be trued and tested. I would let others take the risk first lol
Gels seem to last really well. They were over 8 years on my previous mh, only change for bigger capacity. so i opted for 3 x 120 exide gels on present van and i have been fulltiming for a few years now.
 
SteveandDenise said:
@zac we had a Rapido 10001 I fitted 3 x110 banners all under the seat as original also a 45amp B2B in there as well a bit tight but worked well for three years plus, a 2 kw inverter was fitted on the other side of the battery compartment as to be close to the batteries.
The B2B managed all of the charging never realty used hook up also 250w of solar.

If you do go the route of B2B make sure they fit a relay to disconnect the standard van charging to the batteries when the engine is running I used the +D to power the relay.

We found this setup simple and reliable and very effective
Click to expand...
Useful info thanks for that, i will ask them this question when i go down there as i have no idea how these things are wired in. I only have 2 batteries at the moment with a rather large waeco 1800w pure sinewave inverter. There doesn't look as though there is any more room in there but not really checked properly. Useful to know though for sure.

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