ACOPS / STGW GAS WITH REFERENCE TO CARAVANS & MOTORHOMES

[Campervan_man]

As a formerly supervised Motorhome Technician now Self-Employed I have recently completed a 5 day training ACOPS / STGW LPG course.

The course covered lots of things about LPG, combustion, storage, safety, ventilation, appliances etc

Just to say if You have a Motorhome You should be looking out for things like adequate VENTILATION in your van,
especially if it is a bespoke type van. Ventilation is sometimes over looked but it is crucial that there is enough ventilation
in your Motorhome. eg, If an appliance has poor combustion then your van will fill with Carbon monoxide and you will die.
Small amounts of carbon monoxide will kill a person.

Needless to say You should never use your cooker as a room heating device.

Gaslow :-
Ensure that your system has NOT got a mismatch of Gaslow self- fill and ordinary bottles.
The Gaslow has an 80% over fill protection and an ordinary bottle has not.

A Gaslow seller on fleabay that sells and fits Gaslow states in His advert that it is ok to have a Gaslow bottle and an ordinary bottle connected at the same time.
That is dangerous, as the ordinary bottle will be overfilled with LPG.

If You have smoke alarms check that they are in date with a functioning battery.

If You have a carbon monoxide alarm check that it is in date with a functioning battery and is fitted around waist to shoulder height in your van.

If You haven't got a smoke / carbon monoxide alarm please buy and fit them in your leisure vehicle.

 

[TheBig1]

as the high pressure fill pipe connects only to the inlet of the refillable and not the outlet to the regulator, how will it backfill a calor bottle? especially with a changeover valve on the regulator, they are not connected

 

[aria]

Ventilation is sometimes over looked but it is crucial that there is enough ventilation
in your Motorhome. eg, If an appliance has poor combustion then your van will fill with Carbon monoxide and you will die.

Alarmist absolute statements like that detract from the good info in your post.

I ran a gaslow cylinder alongside a 6kg calor cylinder for a year. It wasn’t a mismatch. The gaslow was properly installed with no way to fill, or overfill, the calor.

 

[Campervan_man]

Every standard bottle says 'property of and only to be filled by ', so You shouldn't be filling them anyway. Saying that I have filled empty propane bottles Myself in the past to 80% full by multiplying X 2 and diving by 80% { it states on the DIY filler the amounts to fill anyway } but going on the LPG Course was very informative.
It is dangerous. Many reasons. I am just expressing My personal opinion having paid £720 cash to go on a 5 day intensive LPG course trained by an ex British Gas person with many years experience in all aspects of Gas.

 

[aria]

You’ve lost me now. We must be at cross purposes.

Having an exchange cylinder alongside a refillable is perfectly safe because if properly installed, you cannot refill the exchange cylinder.
80% doesn’t come into it. 0.8% doesn’t come into it, because there is no way to connect the filling line to the exchange cylinder.

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[chaser]

We have a gasit cylinder and a calor, in the locker but they aren't connected together in any way, when one runs out we connect to the other, and fill the gasit on its own and change the calor in the normal way for another one.

 

[Debs]

We have a gasit cylinder and a calor, in the locker but they aren't connected together in any way, when one runs out we connect to the other, and fill the gasit on its own and change the calor in the normal way for another one.

I've got a similar set up & know a few others do too - perhaps the OP needs clarifying a little?

 

[Campervan_man]

We have a gasit cylinder and a calor, in the locker but they aren't connected together in any way, when one runs out we connect to the other, and fill the gasit on its own and change the calor in the normal way for another one.

That is the correct way to carry a spare bottle in conjunction with a gaslow system.

 

[Campervan_man]

Propane pressure in the bottle is stored at 7Bar { 7000Mbar }, a mechanical type bulk head regulator is 30Mbar. A mechanical regulator can fail and 'Let By' gas vapour & LPG through at a higher pressure which is dangerous. An ACS Gas Safe person took a van to an LPG filling station { not a fuel station }. The LPG supplier refused point blank to fill the system as there was 1 gaslow and 1 ordinary bottle that was connected with a 'T' changeover valve.
I thought He was being a bit of a jobs worth so I took the next NEW motorhome to Him with the same system fitted and He spent 15 mins explaining why He wouldn't and couldn't fill the system until the ordinary bottle was disconnected and the 'T' valve was removed.
Anyway, that is My advice.
Gas rules and regulations are in place for safety.
The only reason a person will fit an ordinary bottle is to save a few quid but is it worth doing if there are safety implications?

 

[aria]

Ok.

For that scenario to pass you need co-incidental failure of the 80% shutoff in the gaslow and the regulator also.

The hazard can be eliminated by following normal good practice and closing all cylinder valves during filling of LPG. Thereby no route into the exchange cylinder.

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[autorouter]

The only reason a person will fit an ordinary bottle is to save a few quid

No it's not. It's the only reason you can manage to think of.

If someone intends to spend several weeks on a site, over the winter in Spain for example, then an exchange bottle is a reasonable idea. It saves having to up sticks, take down the awning, drive off the levelling ramps, put everything away, get the inside straightened up ready for driving, just to fill up with gas. Especially if there's a man comes round delivering gas bottles to the pitch.

 

[Basildog]

Propane pressure in the bottle is stored at 7Bar { 7000Mbar }, a mechanical type bulk head regulator is 30Mbar. A mechanical regulator can fail and 'Let By' gas vapour & LPG through at a higher pressure which is dangerous. An ACS Gas Safe person took a van to an LPG filling station { not a fuel station }. The LPG supplier refused point blank to fill the system as there was 1 gaslow and 1 ordinary bottle that was connected with a 'T' changeover valve.
I thought He was being a bit of a jobs worth so I took the next NEW motorhome to Him with the same system fitted and He spent 15 mins explaining why He wouldn't and couldn't fill the system until the ordinary bottle was disconnected and the 'T' valve was removed.
Anyway, that is My advice.
Gas rules and regulations are in place for safety.
The only reason a person will fit an ordinary bottle is to save a few quid but is it worth doing if there are safety implications?

 

[Basildog]

Whilst I am sure your intentions are honourable you are clearly demonstrating a lack of experience or knowledge possibly both
As a Gas professional who is fully qualified for both natural gas and LPG at Gas Safe level I have absolutely no problems with connecting a Calor cylinder alongside a Refillable cylinder (Gaslow or Gasit etc) , this can be done with several different methods from a tee piece on the regulator to a manual changeover gauge or an automatic changeover valve.
All refillable cylinders should be off when refilling so absolutely no possible way to cause any problems.
Even the pressure you are quoting is only at 15°C and varies depending on temperatures in fact it roughly doubles at 38°C ?

 

[chaser]

What's wrong with just having a normal bottle regulater and swopping it over from one bottle to the other as has been done for getting on for a century?

 

[Basildog]

What's wrong with just having a normal bottle regulater and swopping it over from one bottle to the other as has been done for getting on for a century?

The OP said you aren’t allowed to link different types of cylinders.
That’s absolutely fine too on older vehicles and so is linking the cylinders to a fitting such as this .

POL Bulkhead Fitting for 2 Gas bottles - GAS IT Leisure Gas Bottles, Gas Cylinders and Gas Tanks - Catering, Motorhome, Campervan, Caravan, Farrier and Road Repair Refillable Gas Solutions.

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www.gasit.co.uk

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[chaser]

To be honest, and I suppose my argumentive side, I don't think the op knew as much about gas bottles before his coarse as the normal common or garden old style camper did years ago.

 

[Minxy]

... a 5 day intensive LPG course trained by an ex British Gas person with many years experience in all aspects of Gas.

But how much experience has he with LPG in motorhomes, campers etc? From the info he's teaching he doesn't appear to have any 'practical' knowledge as to how people correctly install and use a refillable and non-refillable side by side, both connected to the regulator, perhaps he needs to go on a 'refresher' course!

 

[Basildog]

To be honest, and I suppose my argumentive side, I don't think the op knew as much about gas bottles before his coarse as the normal common or garden old style camper did years ago.

I think this is the type of installation the OP is talking about which is absolutely fine .

 

[Minxy]

Just to say I realise that you started this thread partly to alert people to the dangers etc of gas and all support to you for that BUT the info has to be totally correct otherwise, as has happened here, what you have been 'taught' isn't IMV.

 

[chaser]

I think this is the type of installation the OP is talking about which is absolutely fine .View attachment 330633View attachment 330634

A system like this , although not the most cost Efficient, doubles your chance of getting a refill, although we rarely have a reason to use it, as we can usually find somewhere to fill before we run out.
Years ago we also carried a French bottle, just in case but we never needed that one and it's still running a BBQ at home.

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[Campervan_man]

Try going here with your 1 yellow bottle and 1 red bottle for a refill.

Harris Gas – Cheap LPG Supplier UK

www.directbottledgas.co.uk

He has 30 years of experience and will not give you gas if both bottles are joined up.

The red bottle is not 80% protected for over fill.

He will look inside your gas locker and will refuse to serve you.

He's a really nice guy and took a long time to explain why it was unsafe.

That's My last post on this subject.

 

[aria]

Try going here with your 1 yellow bottle and 1 red bottle for a refill.

Harris Gas – Cheap LPG Supplier UK

www.directbottledgas.co.uk

He has 30 years of experience and will not give you gas if both bottles are joined up.

The red bottle is not 80% protected for over fill.

He will look inside your gas locker and will refuse to serve you.

He's a really nice guy and took a long time to explain why it was unsafe.

That's My last post on this subject.

I don't need to go there. I'd go to Shell, Asda, BP, or any other forecourt.

The red bottle is 100% protected against overfill if the valve is closed during filling.

You've dug yourself into a hole Sir.

 

[Basildog]

Try going here with your 1 yellow bottle and 1 red bottle for a refill.

Harris Gas – Cheap LPG Supplier UK

www.directbottledgas.co.uk

He has 30 years of experience and will not give you gas if both bottles are joined up.

The red bottle is not 80% protected for over fill.

He will look inside your gas locker and will refuse to serve you.

He's a really nice guy and took a long time to explain why it was unsafe.

That's My last post on this subject.

Have you actually considered that it might be him that is wrong ?
The way the Calor or any other exchangeable cylinders are connected is absolutely safe .
There are NRV’s in the tee or changeover valve and often in the pigtails too .
Believe what you like but I can assure you that both Gaslow and Gasit supply the fittings to do it so are confident that their products are safe .

 

[Campervan_man]

If the valve is closed in theory of course,that is My point, providing the valve is not letting by but the LPG supplier still won't won't fill your system if it is open or closed.
Mechanical Valves and regulators do 'let by' and can suffer from wear.
If your ordinary gas bottle valve is 'letting by' then the bottle will be over filled.
I have 1 full gaslow 11KG bottle in My van with a back up 'NOT' connected red bottle and a newly fitted diesel blow heater that uses diesel. Heating is the main thing that uses gas so My gas should last longer.
Forecourts will let you fill and just charge per litre of gas.

*** For confirmation of the initial thread subject regarding fitting a yellow bottle with a red bottle I have just emailed Gaslow for a definitive answer. I will report back.***

 

[Basildog]

If the valve is closed in theory of course,that is My point, providing the valve is not letting by but the LPG supplier still won't won't fill your system if it is open or closed.
Mechanical Valves and regulators do 'let by' and can suffer from wear.
If your ordinary gas bottle valve is 'letting by' then the bottle will be over filled.
I have 1 full gaslow 11KG bottle in My van with a back up 'NOT' connected red bottle and a newly fitted diesel blow heater that uses diesel. Heating is the main thing that uses gas so My gas should last longer.
Forecourts will let you fill and just charge per litre of gas.

*** For confirmation of the initial thread subject regarding fitting a yellow bottle with a red bottle I have just emailed Gaslow for a definitive answer. I will report back.***

Can you please just explain how the exchangeable cylinder (Calor) could be filled ?

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[chaser]

If the valve is closed in theory of course,that is My point, providing the valve is not letting by but the LPG supplier still won't won't fill your system if it is open or closed.
Mechanical Valves and regulators do 'let by' and can suffer from wear.
If your ordinary gas bottle valve is 'letting by' then the bottle will be over filled.
I have 1 full gaslow 11KG bottle in My van with a back up 'NOT' connected red bottle and a newly fitted diesel blow heater that uses diesel. Heating is the main thing that uses gas so My gas should last longer.
Forecourts will let you fill and just charge per litre of gas.

*** For confirmation of the initial thread subject regarding fitting a yellow bottle with a red bottle I have just emailed Gaslow for a definitive answer. I will report back.***

I think you are just confused, I know there are people who fill calor bottles themselves, one or two on here in fact but the system you are looking at is one refillable bottle and one non self fillable in the same locker but totally separate, and as to not being allowed to fill the gasit one doesn't come up because at filling stations no one looks at what you are filling.

 

[aria]

This is getting a bit silly now.

If the exchange cylinder valve is passing to the extent that it allows the LPG in to overfill; this means that the Gaslow 80% shut-off, the regulator, any check-valves in the system, and now the exchange cylinder valve, have failed. All at the same time.

No.

Bear in mind the exchange cylinder valve will be tested everytime it is returned for refill.
The scenario outlined above is not credible.

 

[Speve]

Don’t think I would be asking OP to fit any gas cylinders for me??
At least until he’s got a few more years experience?

 

[Campervan_man]

Gaslow Propane Twin Regulator Gauge

Designed to create a twin cylinder gas system for new caravans. This unit simply screws on to your 30mbar regulator and allows you to re-connect your existing hose and (with an additional hose) turn your system into a manual changeover with built in leak detection and low level indicator.

gasproducts.co.uk

This valve allows connection of two bottles at the regulator.

When or if Gaslow reply to My question I will report back.
If the secondary ordinary bottle valve 'is' left open it will be over filled when the gaslow bottle is 80% full.
That is why the LPG Supplier refused to fill the system { and the ACS Gas Safe person on site where I worked agreed }.
I don't work for Gaslow so just want to know the answer as they supply the kit.

 

[nabsim]

You would normally fit non return valves with that manual changeover

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