A word to the wise (1 Viewer)

[Flook]

I thought I would share a word to the wise with you.

Last year, September actually, I came back from a nice few weeks away in my motorhome. I parked it on my drive and started clearing things off as one does, along with other checks around the vehicle. This is when I noticed a dent in the offside at the extreme rear about shoulder height. To say I was annoyed might be an understatement, I could not recall catching anyone when I stopped off at a motorway service station, or at any time on the way back.

Between the outer and inner walls of a motorhome is insulated with compressed foam or something similar due to potential water ingress, via it being dew or rain etc to enter any possible split I could not see, I made arrangements to have it repaired.

A week later I had a letter from Wiltshire Police, saying I was seen driving my motorhome catching another vehicle. After the initial shock of that letter saying I had created damage to the motorhome and another vehicle, I contacted my Insurance company and advised them there may be a claim at some time in the future, and I have arranged to have the motorhome repaired carried out at my own cost. In theory I should save myself all the extra costs over the years of increased insurance covers for the car motorbike bike as well as the motorhome. Well that was the theory and it sounded good at the time.

The following five months came and went, during this time I found out via a solicitor that I should have notified the police within 24 hours of noticing the dent, this I did not do. It was pointed out to me, if you do not let the Police know of any damage to your vehicle that has happened anywhere in a public place or highway, you may face a minimum of 5-10 penalty points on your license if you were seen. Apparently there is no excuse in Law, everyone should know you should report an accident, even if you did not know you had hit something like I did.

So having had a solicitor since that time, and a barrister at the time of the Court date. I had my license endorsed for driving without due care and attention, and failing to report. Both of these are now on my license, along with 5 penalty points for not reporting, but no points for driving without due care.

The following day I received a letter from my car insurance to renew. I rang them to let them be aware of the situation. They checked all details out, and informed me because I had notified the motorhome insurance (remember that about theory), there was an extra cost of £50??? also due to the failing to report and without due care would take my £400 which I had been notified of to that of £1200??????? Remember that about theory! I am now with another company (surprise surprise).

All the bills for Solicitor, and Barrister, plus overnight stay for the Court, and fees with court costs etc came to over 2K. So much for theory.

Lessons learnt are; if I have any form of dent in any vehicle I will notify the police accordingly, to potentially save myself 5 further points, let the Insurance company know and claim on them. Use the free advice legal service and save money that way, 'perhaps'.

So the word to the wise is this; if you have any form of dent in your vehicle, and not sure or if you have any idea where it may have happened, inform the police, remember, there is no excuse not by law.

Best to cover your back than to face any consequences and costs of defense, also of any false witnesses to say you caused it when you may well not have.

 

[chaser]

What other vehicle did you hit, is there any proof they didn't hit you?

 

[Cat53]

Wow! Thanks for the heads up! Sorry for your bad luck too.

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[CWH]

Gosh I don't think I'd have reported an unexplained dent either, I think I'd have assumed that somebody had dented MY vehicle while it was parked up somewhere.
That's an expensive lesson, thank you for sharing it with us.

 

[Charlie]

So we notify the Police if we find a minor dent in Any of our vehicles. That's going to go down well

Same with the insurance we would have our NCD suspended at the very least .

In law you are only guilty of failing to report IF you are aware you have had an incident. The onus is on the police to PROVE this and without the proof I can't see how a conviction can stick.

How can the Police or any other agency just assume the incident was entirely your fault ! IF an incident took place again they have to prove who was at fault before deciding who's insurance pays.

With respect I can't help feeling we ain't A getting the full story or B your legal representation was rubbish.

Two months ago I had my insurance get in touch to say our MH had backed into a car in Bristol.

I pointed out that since last September our MH has covered 12 miles. That 12 miles was from the MOT station where it had its first MOT. So the mileage was logged and provable because the vehicle has done only 12 miles since September and still has. Bristol is 70 miles each way.....Mmmmmm

Not being funny but your story makes zero sense.

 

[chaser]

Gosh I don't think I'd have reported an unexplained dent either, I think I'd have assumed that somebody had dented MY vehicle while it was parked up somewhere.
That's an expensive lesson, thank you for sharing it with us.

Don't quite understand the facts of this, is there any photos or anything, why was nothing done at the time.

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[chaser]

I thought I would share a word to the wise with you.

Last year, September actually, I came back from a nice few weeks away in my motorhome. I parked it on my drive and started clearing things off as one does, along with other checks around the vehicle. This is when I noticed a dent in the offside at the extreme rear about shoulder height. To say I was annoyed might be an understatement, I could not recall catching anyone when I stopped off at a motorway service station, or at any time on the way back.

Between the outer and inner walls of a motorhome is insulated with compressed foam or something similar due to potential water ingress, via it being dew or rain etc to enter any possible split I could not see, I made arrangements to have it repaired.

A week later I had a letter from Wiltshire Police, saying I was seen driving my motorhome catching another vehicle. After the initial shock of that letter saying I had created damage to the motorhome and another vehicle, I contacted my Insurance company and advised them there may be a claim at some time in the future, and I have arranged to have the motorhome repaired carried out at my own cost. In theory I should save myself all the extra costs over the years of increased insurance covers for the car motorbike bike as well as the motorhome. Well that was the theory and it sounded good at the time.

The following five months came and went, during this time I found out via a solicitor that I should have notified the police within 24 hours of noticing the dent, this I did not do. It was pointed out to me, if you do not let the Police know of any damage to your vehicle that has happened anywhere in a public place or highway, you may face a minimum of 5-10 penalty points on your license if you were seen. Apparently there is no excuse in Law, everyone should know you should report an accident, even if you did not know you had hit something like I did.

So having had a solicitor since that time, and a barrister at the time of the Court date. I had my license endorsed for driving without due care and attention, and failing to report. Both of these are now on my license, along with 5 penalty points for not reporting, but no points for driving without due care.

The following day I received a letter from my car insurance to renew. I rang them to let them be aware of the situation. They checked all details out, and informed me because I had notified the motorhome insurance (remember that about theory), there was an extra cost of £50??? also due to the failing to report and without due care would take my £400 which I had been notified of to that of £1200??????? Remember that about theory! I am now with another company (surprise surprise).

All the bills for Solicitor, and Barrister, plus overnight stay for the Court, and fees with court costs etc came to over 2K. So much for theory.

Lessons learnt are; if I have any form of dent in any vehicle I will notify the police accordingly, to potentially save myself 5 further points, let the Insurance company know and claim on them. Use the free advice legal service and save money that way, 'perhaps'.

So the word to the wise is this; if you have any form of dent in your vehicle, and not sure or if you have any idea where it may have happened, inform the police, remember, there is no excuse not by law.

Best to cover your back than to face any consequences and costs of defense, also of any false witnesses to say you caused it when you may well not have.

Please don't leave us in suspense over this, are you sure there wasn't a scam involved with this , or are you sure you hit someone, and not the other way round, have you actually seen the other vehical, must have been something big if the dent is shoulder high, not doubting your version at all , just seems a bit wrong somehow.

 

[Kingham]

I thought I would share a word to the wise with you.

Last year, September actually, I came back from a nice few weeks away in my motorhome. I parked it on my drive and started clearing things off as one does, along with other checks around the vehicle. This is when I noticed a dent in the offside at the extreme rear about shoulder height. To say I was annoyed might be an understatement, I could not recall catching anyone when I stopped off at a motorway service station, or at any time on the way back.

Between the outer and inner walls of a motorhome is insulated with compressed foam or something similar due to potential water ingress, via it being dew or rain etc to enter any possible split I could not see, I made arrangements to have it repaired.

A week later I had a letter from Wiltshire Police, saying I was seen driving my motorhome catching another vehicle. After the initial shock of that letter saying I had created damage to the motorhome and another vehicle, I contacted my Insurance company and advised them there may be a claim at some time in the future, and I have arranged to have the motorhome repaired carried out at my own cost. In theory I should save myself all the extra costs over the years of increased insurance covers for the car motorbike bike as well as the motorhome. Well that was the theory and it sounded good at the time.

The following five months came and went, during this time I found out via a solicitor that I should have notified the police within 24 hours of noticing the dent, this I did not do. It was pointed out to me, if you do not let the Police know of any damage to your vehicle that has happened anywhere in a public place or highway, you may face a minimum of 5-10 penalty points on your license if you were seen. Apparently there is no excuse in Law, everyone should know you should report an accident, even if you did not know you had hit something like I did.

So having had a solicitor since that time, and a barrister at the time of the Court date. I had my license endorsed for driving without due care and attention, and failing to report. Both of these are now on my license, along with 5 penalty points for not reporting, but no points for driving without due care.

The following day I received a letter from my car insurance to renew. I rang them to let them be aware of the situation. They checked all details out, and informed me because I had notified the motorhome insurance (remember that about theory), there was an extra cost of £50??? also due to the failing to report and without due care would take my £400 which I had been notified of to that of £1200??????? Remember that about theory! I am now with another company (surprise surprise).

All the bills for Solicitor, and Barrister, plus overnight stay for the Court, and fees with court costs etc came to over 2K. So much for theory.

Lessons learnt are; if I have any form of dent in any vehicle I will notify the police accordingly, to potentially save myself 5 further points, let the Insurance company know and claim on them. Use the free advice legal service and save money that way, 'perhaps'.

So the word to the wise is this; if you have any form of dent in your vehicle, and not sure or if you have any idea where it may have happened, inform the police, remember, there is no excuse not by law.

Best to cover your back than to face any consequences and costs of defense, also of any false witnesses to say you caused it when you may well not have.

I'm guessing that the fact that a conviction ensued, the damage was sufficient to strongly suggest that the 'benchmark' reasonable person should have been aware that a collision had occurred and therefore should have stopped ? Possibly aided by video and/or witness evidence.

If the contact was so light that it may not have been noticed, there is no mens rea and a conviction for failing to stop/report should not have ensued. In such a minor case, even with video or witness evidence, the offending driver's details would be passed back to the victim or their insurer, for recompense and the matter would end there, not being in the public interest to prosecute.

 

[Flook]

Apparently, there was a witness, who and where??? Their wording was that I was seen. A witness statement was given, and the police decided to stick with it. I was cautioned at home, give my view of events which I was vague being due to not knowing I had hit a BMW X5, apparently I had struck the nearside wing mirror!! They wernt there when we parked up but were there on our return. I even moved the moho away from them so to gain further distance, I heard nothing as the wash area is at the rear and the door was closed. Never saw the solicitor face to face, sent all my photo's as evidence, non from the other side???

I was persuaded to make a plea of guilty which went against the grain, plea bargaining and all that, so just the 5 points and license endorsed with failing to report and driving without due care . .

Scam! there was a dent on the van, I have checked the height of mirrors on BMW's X5, they are about my shoulder height, I will never know, and yes chaser it does seem a bit wrong somehow.

Chaser, no photo's of BMW damage at all, Witness to my mind was very suspect, they reconed I seesawed the moho to release the van from mirror, yet only a small dent was in the side of the van about two inches from the actual rear. I was real down during the last five months, and I was not up to a full court hearing especialy as I was told if I lost the case I would have to pay all costs of mine and there's, so I went like a lamb to the slaughter.

Brown stuff happens, just have to get on with it. Just thought I would share with you guy's, be careful.

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[Flook]

I'm guessing that the fact that a conviction ensued, the damage was sufficient to strongly suggest that the 'benchmark' reasonable person should have been aware that a collision had occurred and therefore should have stopped ? Possibly aided by video and/or witness evidence.

If the contact was so light that it may not have been noticed, there is no mens rea and a conviction for failing to stop/report should not have ensued. In such a minor case, even with video or witness evidence, the offending driver's details would be passed back to the victim or their insurer, for recompense and the matter would end there, not being in the public interest to prosecute.

That is what the Solicitor thought, but the police decided to, I assume, to make an example of me, as it was a motorhome, and should have been aware of it. In court I had the Barrister show photo and picture evidence concerning the layout of my van taken directly from the Elddis site, pictures of the area where the incident happened courtesy of Google Earth, photo's of the interior of the van with wash room door open and closed to show I was not aware by any noise, even then the police did not back down . . .

 

[Stretto Boy]

If the contact was so light that it may not have been noticed, there is no mens rea and a conviction for failing to stop/report should not have ensued.

KINGHAM : it occurs to me that there may be some non-lawyers on here who are not entirely sure what "mens rea" means. For the benefit of others, it is the "guilty mind" element of crimes where intent has to be proved.

Takes me back over 40 years to my law degree days. The phrase I recall is "Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea" which means you are not guilty of the act without a guilty mind.

I agree with your interpretation of the situation. Our fellow Funster was very unlucky.


P.S. Not sure why my post is appearing as part of my quotation of your wise words!

 

[Cavs]

Sorry, Flook, there is something amiss here. I have traffic and prosecutions police experience and there is no way that the facts you describe should have had the results you describe.

Unless this was a long time ago, the police don't prosecute, the CPS does. Your legal advice was flaky at best - you should never plead guilty when you're not and I'd have loved to defend you. Are you out of time to appeal? If not, I recommend you get some proper advice from someone who knows what they're doing.

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[gus-lopez]

I think your real problem was in not letting the insurance deal with it & using the legal services of them to fight the case,, denying that you actually hit anything & I'd have been looking at who the witness was & relationship to the vehicle owner.
Personally I think you have been scammed by both the X5 owner/witness & the police.
Unfortunately these days a clash of mirrors is classed as "failing to stop" &/or "leaving the scene of an accident" if one party gets a number plate & wishes to be awkward.

 

[Cavs]

As for reporting an unexplained dent that you've found on your vehicle, I can imagine the conversation:
"I'd like to report that I might have been in a reportable collision."
"Why do you think you might have been in a collision?"
"I don't, but I've found a dent."
"When did it happen?"
"Some time in the last three weeks."
"Where did it happen?"
"No idea."
"Was anyone injured?"
"No idea."
"You're having a laugh - where's the candid camera?"

You can't get the police to record a damage only collision where two cars are in bits in the road these days.

 

[Riverbankannie]

Feel sorry for you @Flook, when I read your first post earlier today I didn't know how to respond so didn't. No one else had posted at that time. Now you have put in some more detail I do feel you have been a victim here. Thank you for posting and opening up an interesting and informative thread and I hope that by doing this you will be able to appeal.

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[suavecarve]

i ve just read this and conclude the same as @Kingham

This should never have passed any threshold for prosecution IF you didnt know it occured. My understanding is that it was done, basically in a car park. IF the witness states that as soon as you had moanouvred you stopped and got out of your van and went to check the rear of your van and looked in the direction of the BMW, then they would have done you for failing to report. If you had moved away in a smooth manner then they would not as they could not prove the offence of failing to report as you have to know a collision has occurred to report it.

Incidentally you have to attend the police station in person and within 24 hours (best to take your documents with you as you will only be given the 7 day wonder and have to return within 7 days from midnight that night)

It is also incorrect you have to report every dent. An easy "Get out of jail" card to play for your dent that would have been known by your team was to say that you hit an animal that falls within the non reportable animals (A dog, a goat, horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep and pig are reportable which leaves a lot to choose from that caused your dent) or you hit something and caused no damage to the other thing (concrete lampost for example for minor dent)

Also, why employ the services of a barrister if you plead Guilty. Now, Barristers are very very good at arguing. I never took on a barrister (having learnt my lesson once). A barrister on a guilty plea for a traffic offence when the licence is not in jeopardy seems poor advice from the brief as well.

 

[Kingham]

That is what the Solicitor thought, but the police decided to, I assume, to make an example of me, as it was a motorhome, and should have been aware of it.

I really do think you've been had over Flook and that saddens me.

The police don't go out of their way to make examples of motorhomers and in fact, the larger the vehicle, the more reasonable it is that the driver is unaware of a minor bump at the rear and therefore less likely to be prosecuted.

 

[GWAYGWAY]

MAYBE, you did not have an accidental touch when driving your van, maybe someone else caught it whilst they were driving and to avoid the issues you have, they blamed you for it. Simply done you get the trouble they get the replacement mirror or what ever AND no insurance claim.
ALSO It was a BMW X5 and they are usually driven by or by the girlfriends of 'Wide Boys'??????
The dent on the REAR of a van can only by caused when the van turns left making the rear swing out, were you turning? If not then they hit you as the mirror is to front of a vehicle, cutting towards you. Probably find the witness was a passenger in the car.

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[Charlie]

Apparently, there was a witness, who and where??? Their wording was that I was seen. A witness statement was given, and the police decided to stick with it. I was cautioned at home, give my view of events which I was vague being due to not knowing I had hit a BMW X5, apparently I had struck the nearside wing mirror!! They wernt there when we parked up but were there on our return. I even moved the moho away from them so to gain further distance, I heard nothing as the wash area is at the rear and the door was closed. Never saw the solicitor face to face, sent all my photo's as evidence, non from the other side???

I was persuaded to make a plea of guilty which went against the grain, plea bargaining and all that, so just the 5 points and license endorsed with failing to report and driving without due care . .

Scam! there was a dent on the van, I have checked the height of mirrors on BMW's X5, they are about my shoulder height, I will never know, and yes chaser it does seem a bit wrong somehow.

Chaser, no photo's of BMW damage at all, Witness to my mind was very suspect, they reconed I seesawed the moho to release the van from mirror, yet only a small dent was in the side of the van about two inches from the actual rear. I was real down during the last five months, and I was not up to a full court hearing especialy as I was told if I lost the case I would have to pay all costs of mine and there's, so I went like a lamb to the slaughter.

Brown stuff happens, just have to get on with it. Just thought I would share with you guy's, be careful.

Who on Earth suggested you plead guilty ??? That's just gobsmackingly ridiculous !! It's Entirely down to the Police or the other party's insurers to prove not only the incident was your fault and that you knew it had happened and that you buggered off. It's called the burden of proof I.E. the burden is on them.

You say you had not only a solicitor but a barrister as well ???

I Could understand a person falling for it but someone who has both of the above and has spent 2 grand ????

 

[Riverbankannie]

MAYBE, you did not have an accidental touch when driving your van, maybe someone else caught it whilst they were driving and to avoid the issues you have, they blamed you for it. Simply done you get the trouble they get the replacement mirror or what ever AND no insurance claim.
ALSO It was a BMW X5 and they are usually driven by or by the girlfriends of 'Wide Boys'??????
The dent on the REAR of a van can only by caused when the van turns left making the rear swing out, were you turning? If not then they hit you as the mirror is to front of a vehicle, cutting towards you. Probably find the witness was a passenger in the car.

If I understand it right, the BMW was parked at the time of the incident.

 

[Jasz]

If I understand it right, the BMW was parked at the time of the incident.

An earlier post does say that the BMW wasn't there when they parked, but was when they left.

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[Flook]

I originally posted this to make aware of what can happen if one does not report a dent.

This happened last year, late September, court case hearing was early March this year.

I had to turn left, but I manuovered the van away from the parked BMW and pulled foreword as far as possible before turning left, I had looked in the drivers mirror before turning left, and looked forward to make sure there was no public crossing in front of me and no incoming motorway from my left, checked drivers mirror again to make sure I was clear before proceeding to turn right into the main thoroughfare. I was not speeding away as the witness had stated, as there was motorway traffic etc, there was no need for me to speed anyway.

I have said about what I was advised including about noticing the dent on my return, I have been, sorry, I was advised there is no excuse inlaw if you do not report any suspected accident or any suspicious damage to your vehicle. I have never ever been told this by anyone, so I decided to bring this out in the open as a result.

Also, this was a very traumatic five months, and only now I have been able to come to terms with this.

If I had been aware there was a solicitor in a neibouring County to handle this case I would have been very happy. However, despite my looking around on the internet and asking around including some of Bedfordshires finest, I used a legal company miles and a few Counties away from me.

Flook

 

[The Wino]

Makes more sense now as the rear would tend to swing out on the drivers side when turning left I got caught out on a post at a car park exit on our old van its worse the more overhang there is behind the rear wheels. It does however sound a bit draconian and I'm suprised the police were that bothered as long as the driver would admit possible liability at an early stage I can only assume they thought the quick repair was to try and cover up the dammage/liability. It does't seem fair that you seem to have been punnished more than a burglar/shoplifter/thug in a fight when you only made a mistake.

 

[Tootles]

S**T!! Our old Hymer has about 37 dents! I must be banned!

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[Chris]

Failing to report an accident that you were unaware of?

I think the CPS would have had an uphill battle proving that one!

As for driving without due care, if the accident occurred as alleged, it was merely a misjudgement on your part driving a large vehicle.

I am amazed this ever ended up in a criminal court.

Was the copper a mate of the BMW owner?

Sorry for what you have been through

 

[Charlie]

Feel sorry for you @Flook, when I read your first post earlier today I didn't know how to respond so didn't. No one else had posted at that time. Now you have put in some more detail I do feel you have been a victim here. Thank you for posting and opening up an interesting and informative thread and I hope that by doing this you will be able to appeal.

He paid two grand not to become a victim.....

 

[Charlie]

Back to the original points the OP made.

Are we to report to the police a dent if we find one ? Err no not for me. In many areas the police do not turn out if you have a burglary they issue a crime number.

Same with the insurance if we sustain a car park inherited wee bump or scrape who is going to report that ? Doing so would sully our record as we are then viewed as incident prone even if we do not claim. Besides which the excess may be bigger than the cost of the wee repair.

To the OP.
The cost of your legal people and that they had overnight stay says this actually went to court ? At which point they advised you to plead guilty ?

If so why on earth did they not advise you to fight it rigorously given the fact you had spent so much flaming money ? AND you had done absolutely nothing wrong ? What after all did you have to loose given the circumstances ?

I return to my point earlier in the thread. I don't think we are getting the full SP.

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[chaser]

I originally posted this to make aware of what can happen if one does not report a dent.

This happened last year, late September, court case hearing was early March this year.

I had to turn left, but I manuovered the van away from the parked BMW and pulled foreword as far as possible before turning left, I had looked in the drivers mirror before turning left, and looked forward to make sure there was no public crossing in front of me and no incoming motorway from my left, checked drivers mirror again to make sure I was clear before proceeding to turn right into the main thoroughfare. I was not speeding away as the witness had stated, as there was motorway traffic etc, there was no need for me to speed anyway.

I have said about what I was advised including about noticing the dent on my return, I have been, sorry, I was advised there is no excuse inlaw if you do not report any suspected accident or any suspicious damage to your vehicle. I have never ever been told this by anyone, so I decided to bring this out in the open as a result.

Also, this was a very traumatic five months, and only now I have been able to come to terms with this.

If I had been aware there was a solicitor in a neibouring County to handle this case I would have been very happy. However, despite my looking around on the internet and asking around including some of Bedfordshires finest, I used a legal company miles and a few Counties away from me.

Flook

Just a point here, have you got legal costs covered on your car insurance, if so why didn't that kick in.

 

[chaser]

Sorry to keep on about this, but it's just a puzzle, first off , presumably we know now it's on a car park , so if you had called the police they wouldn't have attended if no one was hurt, even in road accidents they don't, second if you were on a car park you wouldn't have been going very fast just moving off, why didn't this witness bang on your van or something, third what actual damage was on the BMW , why didn't they just come to you to pay for it, and as above why didn't your insurance deal with it.
Edit if this was a motorway park where is the survaliance evidence.

 

[Cavs]

I was advised there is no excuse inlaw if you do not report any suspected accident or any suspicious damage to your vehicle

@Flook This is nonsense. It is an absolute defence in law to a charge of failing to stop/failing to report an accident to show that were not aware you had been involved in one. Showing you were not aware depends on all the circumstances, but things like the collision being minor so might not have been felt in a big vehicle would definitely be part of the magistrate's decision making. That you pleaded guilty took this part of the decision away from the court.

If I were in your position I would go to a local solicitor (based on friends' recommendation if possible) and ask about their expertise in traffic law. If they have no-one with that expertise they are likely to refer you to someone else who has. I would be investigating the possibility of an appeal on the grounds that your previous 'legal advisers' were muppets.

I wish you well and I hope my previous posts did not come across as insulting to you.

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