A message from Spanish police about traffic law. (1 Viewer)

[GJH]

Just a small point here Jim. Highway code is not a law but a set of guidelines for Drivers/Riders/Pedestrians.
It can be quoted in Criminal or Civil cases by both parties and taken into account when deciding on cases. It does not in itself create any criminal law.

It doesn't say that the Highway code is law or creates any criminal law though, does it?

It says "The rules and laws of driving in the UK are printed in a booklet called the Highway code" (my italics) which is accurate because the relevant laws are referenced in the Highway Code.

 

[scotjimland]

Just a small point here Jim. Highway code is not a law but a set of guidelines for Drivers/Riders/Pedestrians.
It can be quoted in Criminal or Civil cases by both parties and taken into account when deciding on cases. It does not in itself create any criminal law.

it also contains Laws which Must be observed

for example, The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989

 

[Billy23]

I was pulled over by the police two days ago, they thought that I was a boy racer because I had my front fog lights on. After realising her silly mistake I got to chatting to her and she told me if I had been pulled over by a traffic cop then he would have given me a £60 fine.
Who is it who decides when conditions require or do not require front fog lamps. The silly girl told me that fog lights were one of her own pet hates. I think she should get out more......

Re Fog lights, if I remember correctly (in the UK) fog lights front/back must not be used unless your view of the road is less than 100 yards. And that would make sense in Spain as well I guess.........but they don't have much fog.

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[Traveller_HA5_3DOM]

Just to be pedantic, a law is an enactment of parliament and termed a statute. It itself may subsequently modified by regulations made from powers contained in it or by stated cases made by judges in their judgement on cases of appeal they have come before them. The Highway Code attempts to put these laws into layman's language but whilst it may refer to the relevant statute it is not a law in it's own right.

 

[GJH]

Re Fog lights, if I remember correctly (in the UK) fog lights front/back must not be used unless your view of the road is less than 100 yards. And that would make sense in Spain as well I guess.........but they don't have much fog.

From the Highway Code:

Rule 236
You MUST NOT use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced (see Rule 226) as they dazzle other road users and can obscure your brake lights. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves.
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27

Rule 226
You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 236).
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27

RVLR 1989

Restrictions on the use of lamps other than those to which regulation 24 refers

27. No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road any vehicle on which any lamp, hazard warning signal device or warning beacon of a type specified in an item in column 2 of the Table below is used in a manner specified in that item in column 3.
.
.
.
2 Front fog lamp
(a)Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road.
(b)Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.
(c)Used so as to be lit when a vehicle is parked.

Perhaps the police officer was not a silly girl after all and is justified in having a pet hate over use of fog lights in the wrong circumstances

Just to be pedantic, a law is an enactment of parliament and termed a statute. It itself may subsequently modified by regulations made from powers contained in it or by stated cases made by judges in their judgement on cases of appeal they have come before them. The Highway Code attempts to put these laws into layman's language but whilst it may refer to the relevant statute it is not a law in it's own right.

I don't think anyone is claiming anything different are they?

 

[gus-lopez]

in total agreement.. wasn't challenging the Spanish Traffic laws.. heaven forbid

I was pointing out that the use of A frames in the UK doesn't come under traffic laws.

Top Tip... When driving in Spain always keep a €50 note in your driving license..

Illegal & banned now under Spanish law for them to accept cash. All Trafico vehicles carry card readers these days.

Spain signed the
Vienna Convention on Road Traffic on the 8th Nov 1968

Cross-border vehicles[edit]

One of the main benefits of the convention for motorists is the obligation on signatory countries to recognise the legality of vehicles from other signatory countries. The following requirements must be met when driving outside the country of registration

Quite right , & they do. Unfortunately you are not being fined for doing something which is "technically" legal at the moment in the UK but for doing something which in Spain is completely illegal..................towing a vehicle. This is why we have built in recovery to vehicle insurance.& yes you can buy tow ropes here. just illegal to use them.

Jim,
"Top Tip... When driving in Spain always keep a €50 note in your driving license.. "

Now that it's a bit of plastic, should I attach the €50 note with a paper clip or wrap the Licence up in it.
And Geo,
"One of the main benefits of the convention for motorists is the obligation on signatory countries torecognise the legality of vehicles from other signatory countries. The following requirements must be met when driving outside the country of registration."

The problem with the argument put forward by you (above) is that nowhere in UK law does it state that an A Frame is legal. That will remain so until it is tested in a Court.
In Spain, right from the off they say it is unlawful. How can you argue with that.

You see, we have a totally diametrically opposite way of imposing Law in the UK to that of Spain.

& when they do test it they'll be banned immediately under the EU " modifying vehicles" rules as the CoC has been breached by modifying the front chassis member with additions for attaching thI can never understand how a 'toad' itself passes an MOT when EU rules state that vehicles now cannot be modified from there CoC factory manufactured state ?

Having just read what Jim posted please do not try to attach ( I know he was kidding ) money to your licence when handing it over to the policeman or woman as you will be arrested on the spot. Having said that he is correct it is very handy to have the money in your wallet as locals have a few days to pay fines, however ANYONE visiting Spain will have to pay on the spot.

No , no cash anymore they've all got card readers & for us residents we don't have to pay on the spot anyway. Just within the 20 days to get the 50% discount

Always a good talking point this one. I usually refer back to the Vienna Convention on Road traffic in 1968 which followed on from the Geneva one in 1949. Spain is one of the Countries who signed up to this and it was to permit traffic from other countries to use the roads providing they were legal in their own country.
The important paragraph I think is this "One of the main benefits of the convention for motorists is the obligation on signatory countries to recognise the legality of vehicles from other signatory countries.
The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration. Any conflicting technical requirements (e.g., right-hand-drive or left-hand-drive) in the signatory country where the vehicle is being driven do not apply.
So N332 how do your money making schemes to fleece the foreign drivers manage to evade a piece of International law and agreement, please quote the legislation that has been enacted or signed up to by the Spanish that makes this behavior legal.

AS above it is not the " legality" of it in the UK which is the problem just the fact that YOU CANNOT TOW A CAR or any vehicle IN SPAIN ; & that is what they are looking at.
It does not come under the "Vienna convention" .
To the Spanish it cannot come under "Trailer" regs , as it technically does in the UK ,as it is self-propelling when detached & has its own registration plate.

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[Gromett]

What i don't understand is folk who complain about foreigners ignoring or breaking UK laws want to go to another country and break theirs!

Exactly this.... I don't see why there is a big debate over it. In Spain it is illegal don't try and get round it or argue the toss. We don't like it when Europeans tell us that our laws are wrong so why should they be any different.

When I travel abroad I prefer to learn as much as I can about the country, the laws, the cultural differences and even try to learn a bit of the language. It is basic respect. I expect foreign visitors to do the same when they come here.

Bashing Spanish cops over the head with EU regulations or treaties doesn't make us any friends and makes us look like idiots.

 

[telsdog]

Gus
Modifications in breach of c of c rules do not come into the scope of an MOT. Yet !!

 

[Geo]

duplicate

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[Geo]

[QUOTE="

AS above it is not the " legality" of it in the UK which is the problem just the fact that YOU CANNOT TOW A CAR or any vehicle IN SPAIN ; & that is what they are looking at.
It does not come under the "Vienna convention" .
To the Spanish it cannot come under "Trailer" regs , as it technically does in the UK ,as it is self-propelling when detached & has its own registration plate.[/QUOTE]


But im not towing a car!!!! Ociffer Im Towing a trailer see UK definition of car with A frame
So it's illegal to tow a trailer now ??

 

[Billy23]

[QUOTE="

AS above it is not the " legality" of it in the UK which is the problem just the fact that YOU CANNOT TOW A CAR or any vehicle IN SPAIN ; & that is what they are looking at.
It does not come under the "Vienna convention" .
To the Spanish it cannot come under "Trailer" regs , as it technically does in the UK ,as it is self-propelling when detached & has its own registration plate.

But im not towing a car!!!! Ociffer Im Towing a trailer see UK definition of car with A frame
So it's illegal to tow a trailer now ??[/QUOTE]


Ah! Twood be great if it worked like that, I can see it now " But im not towing a car!!!! Ociffer Im Towing a trailer see UK definition of car with A frame" Ociffer says, wonderful, now how would you like to pay the fine?

 

[Geo]

I no speaky de Spanish Keh!!!

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[Minxy]

I was pulled over by the police two days ago, they thought that I was a boy racer because I had my front fog lights on. After realising her silly mistake I got to chatting to her and she told me if I had been pulled over by a traffic cop then he would have given me a £60 fine.
Who is it who decides when conditions require or do not require front fog lamps. The silly girl told me that fog lights were one of her own pet hates. I think she should get out more......

Do you know just how INSULTING that is ... why is she a 'silly girl'??? She was just doing her job and stopping some 'person' with his fog lights on who she thought was a boy racer ... you were the 'silly boy' for having them on in the first place! As for her being silly about them being one of her pet hates, I hate them too when they are on for no reason ... does that make me a silly girl too ... I think not!

 

[johnp10]

Re Fog lights, if I remember correctly (in the UK) fog lights front/back must not be used unless your view of the road is less than 100 yards. And that would make sense in Spain as well I guess.........but they don't have much fog.

Highway Code comes in.
Whilst, as has been said, the HC is not legislation, it is a Code of Practice, and as such can be quoted as evidence.

I believe for front fogs the offence is......
"Improper use of optional lamps, contrary to the advice given in the Highway Code".

There will be someone along soon who can Google a different answer, much like towing a vehicle being illegal in Spain.

Both are offences, why the debate?

 

[grumps147]

I reckon if you changed the regulations to say you must use fog lights at night and not headlights, and only use headlights in fog (yes, I know, car electric configuration does not allow this), that all boy racers would stop using fog lights and just use headlights. If it says you should not, there are some people who just seem who want to do it because it says you should not. Why people selectively and deliberately chose to ignore a variety of sections of the Highway Code I cannot fathom, it's designed for the safety of all road users.

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[Billy23]

I reckon if you changed the regulations to say you must use fog lights at night and not headlights, and only use headlights in fog (yes, I know, car electric configuration does not allow this), that all boy racers would stop using fog lights and just use headlights. If it says you should not, there are some people who just seem who want to do it because it says you should not. Why people selectively and deliberately chose to ignore a variety of sections of the Highway Code I cannot fathom, it's designed for the safety of all road users.

Bit like A frames in Spain

 

[buttons]

Do you know just how INSULTING that is ... why is she a 'silly girl'??? She was just doing her job and stopping some 'person' with his fog lights on who she thought was a boy racer ... you were the 'silly boy' for having them on in the first place! As for her being silly about them being one of her pet hates, I hate them too when they are on for no reason ... does that make me a silly girl too ... I think not!

Mistaking me for a boy racer was perhaps a bit silly Mg

 

[John & Joan]

Re Fog lights, if I remember correctly (in the UK) fog lights front/back must not be used unless your view of the road is less than 100 yards. And that would make sense in Spain as well I guess.........but they don't have much fog.

Yes, they do get a lot of fog in Spain.
Driving down to the French Border the road signs were clearly saying Fog in Spain. As we drove over the Pyrenees we were in patchy thick Fog. This was the case through the high plains. We stopped in fog just before Teruel for the night and there were pictures on the TV news of a 3 lorry pile up that, if we had continued, we would have been caught up in. One truck had run into the back of another and its trailer was on top of the first one. Then another truck ran into them. Two drivers killed and one injured. Throughout the winter there have been fog and low cloud warnings on the TV weather relating to roads in the north and the high plains.

Even on the Costas we have experienced fog some mornings and have heard radio warnings about it. It isn't all sunshine in Spain.

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[John & Joan]

It is permissible with police authority, to tow a vehicle from a road to a place of safety. We have had a front end lift from a Spanish AutoRoute with a Police escort.

 

[sdc77]

Mistaking me for a boy racer was perhaps a bit silly Mg

Don't have your fog lights on for no reason ...silly person.. and that won't happen.

 

[GJH]

Mistaking me for a boy racer was perhaps a bit silly Mg

Don't have your fog lights on for no reason ...silly person.. and that won't happen.

Beat me to it

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[scotjimland]

From the Spanish police.

https://www.facebook.com/DrivingSpain/posts/468307066689984:0

All about traffic law in Spain.

After asking about their view on the the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic I was told to stop following them.. and my posts have now been 'disappeared' ...

old habits die hard I guess

 

[Billy23]

Yes, they do get a lot of fog in Spain.
Driving down to the French Border the road signs were clearly saying Fog in Spain. As we drove over the Pyrenees we were in patchy thick Fog. This was the case through the high plains. We stopped in fog just before Teruel for the night and there were pictures on the TV news of a 3 lorry pile up that, if we had continued, we would have been caught up in. One truck had run into the back of another and its trailer was on top of the first one. Then another truck ran into them. Two drivers killed and one injured. Throughout the winter there have been fog and low cloud warnings on the TV weather relating to roads in the north and the high plains.

Even on the Costas we have experienced fog some mornings and have heard radio warnings about it. It isn't all sunshine in Spain.

I did say "Much" My house is in Spain and yes we do get it.......but not much!

 

[gus-lopez]

After asking about their view on the the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic I was told to stop following them.. and my posts have now been 'disappeared' ...

old habits die hard I guess

I had the same a few weeks back with the Dorset Police no excuse site.

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[Traveller_HA5_3DOM]

Illegal & banned now under Spanish law for them to accept cash. All Trafico vehicles carry card readers these days.



Quite right , & they do. Unfortunately you are not being fined for doing something which is "technically" legal at the moment in the UK but for doing something which in Spain is completely illegal..................towing a vehicle. This is why we have built in recovery to vehicle insurance.& yes you can buy tow ropes here. just illegal to use them.


& when they do test it they'll be banned immediately under the EU " modifying vehicles" rules as the CoC has been breached by modifying the front chassis member with additions for attaching thI can never understand how a 'toad' itself passes an MOT when EU rules state that vehicles now cannot be modified from there CoC factory manufactured state ?


No , no cash anymore they've all got card readers & for us residents we don't have to pay on the spot anyway. Just within the 20 days to get the 50% discount


AS above it is not the " legality" of it in the UK which is the problem just the fact that YOU CANNOT TOW A CAR or any vehicle IN SPAIN ; & that is what they are looking at.
It does not come under the "Vienna convention" .
To the Spanish it cannot come under "Trailer" regs , as it technically does in the UK ,as it is self-propelling when detached & has its own registration plate.

 

[Traveller_HA5_3DOM]

Trying to view this from a legal perspective and rationalise the Spanish stand on this.
Many trailers and Caravans now are fitted with motor mover systems that will permit them to be driven when detached from the towing vehicle.
I also have difficulty with rationalising the lack of a driver in the A frame attached car that renders the driver unnecessary and surplus to requirements. It is not like the tow rope senario where a steersman is required to try to maintain control.
The A Frame attachment is open to argument as to whether it makes a dangerous part or accessory but it certainly ceases to be a car once the attachment is completed. If it did not it would surely need a driver to be driven on the road. I am unaware of anyone in Spain being fined for using a driverless car.
The final point relates to the returning of the A Frame car to a condition where it can be driven again. It needs some degree of mechanical work in order to remove the frame from the car including uncoupling the braking mechanism used to apply the brakes.
I do therefore sit on the UK side of the fence and agree that it is treated as a trailer whilst coupled through the A Frame. Therefore the Convention rules agreed in 1968 apply even though they predate Braked A Frames.

 

[Don Quixote]

@Broken Link Removed you can sit on any side you like, this is Spain and they do what they they want. When people travel to another country they are expected to follow the law in that country or pay for not doing so. Simples really.

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[scotjimland]

@Broken Link Removed you can sit on any side you like, this is Spain and they do what they they want. When people travel to another country they are expected to follow the law in that country or pay for not doing so. Simples really.

no argument.. I have travelled in many countries and always obeyed the law.. not agreeing with it doesn't change it..

However .. it works both ways.. Spain should also respect conventions it has signed up to... or have they also made the inconvenient truth 'disappear' ?

Any respect I had for the N322 cops has evaporated.. deleting posts that they don't agree or like says much about them..

 

[funflair]

Trying to view this from a legal perspective and rationalise the Spanish stand on this.
Many trailers and Caravans now are fitted with motor mover systems that will permit them to be driven when detached from the towing vehicle.
I also have difficulty with rationalising the lack of a driver in the A frame attached car that renders the driver unnecessary and surplus to requirements. It is not like the tow rope senario where a steersman is required to try to maintain control.
The A Frame attachment is open to argument as to whether it makes a dangerous part or accessory but it certainly ceases to be a car once the attachment is completed. If it did not it would surely need a driver to be driven on the road. I am unaware of anyone in Spain being fined for using a driverless car.
The final point relates to the returning of the A Frame car to a condition where it can be driven again. It needs some degree of mechanical work in order to remove the frame from the car including uncoupling the braking mechanism used to apply the brakes.
I do therefore sit on the UK side of the fence and agree that it is treated as a trailer whilst coupled through the A Frame. Therefore the Convention rules agreed in 1968 apply even though they predate Braked A Frames.

I can't see that it is anything other than a car attached to something to tow it, and if you are not allowed to tow a car in Spain then it follows that it's not legal, I think everyone can argue the point as much as they like but the Spanish plod will have the last say.

Martin

 

[Billy23]

Trying to view this from a legal perspective and rationalise the Spanish stand on this.
Many trailers and Caravans now are fitted with motor mover systems that will permit them to be driven when detached from the towing vehicle.
I also have difficulty with rationalising the lack of a driver in the A frame attached car that renders the driver unnecessary and surplus to requirements. It is not like the tow rope senario where a steersman is required to try to maintain control.
The A Frame attachment is open to argument as to whether it makes a dangerous part or accessory but it certainly ceases to be a car once the attachment is completed. If it did not it would surely need a driver to be driven on the road. I am unaware of anyone in Spain being fined for using a driverless car.
The final point relates to the returning of the A Frame car to a condition where it can be driven again. It needs some degree of mechanical work in order to remove the frame from the car including uncoupling the braking mechanism used to apply the brakes.
I do therefore sit on the UK side of the fence and agree that it is treated as a trailer whilst coupled through the A Frame. Therefore the Convention rules agreed in 1968 apply even though they predate Braked A Frames.

Ah! Rationalise.......That's where it falls down, how many countries, including the UK could you say that about. I guess you wouldn't have to look far for an English law before you struggled to Rationalise it and fail.

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