A frames update May 2018 gov. UK (1 Viewer)

[Pausim]

And which the Spanish and Portuguese in particular along with other European countries fail to honour.

Spain, like the UK, has never ratified the Vienna Convention on traffic (not to be confused with the Vienna Convention concening diplomatic relations).

 

[PeteH]

Spain, like the UK, has never ratified the Vienna Convention on traffic (not to be confused with the Vienna Convention concening diplomatic relations).

See My quote ref "Spirit". The Spanish (in particular) dont believe in the fishing rules either!. Hence the need for 4 new Royal Navy Fishery protection vessels over the next few years!.

 

[Pausim]

See My quote ref "Spirit". The Spanish (in particular) dont believe in the fishing rules either!. Hence the need for 4 new Royal Navy Fishery protection vessels over the next few years!.

Understood. However, I am not sure the “spirit” holds when we have yet to sign up fully. I don’t know enough about Spanish fishing to want to enter into that debate, come to think of it I don’t know too much about the Vienna conventions either so I will go back to drinking my morning tea.

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[Gaston aires]

I have just agreed to buy a smart car with car a tow A frame. I'm more confused than ever now. I thought it was OK to use A frames in Europe except for Spain ?
Phil

 

[Deleted member 29692]

I have just agreed to buy a smart car with car a tow A frame. I'm more confused than ever now. I thought it was OK to use A frames in Europe except for Spain ?
Phil

They are specifically illegal in Germany as well.

In France legislation is currently working it's way through their system to make them illegal there. How long that will take is anyone's guess.


In Spain it's not the A frame itself that's the problem. It is not legal to tow any vehicle unless all its wheels are off the ground. The method of towing is irrelevant.

 

[Louis]

You can use an ‘A’ frame to tow a car behind a fishing vessel in Spanish Waters

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[Gaston aires]

They are specifically illegal in Germany as well.

In France legislation is currently working it's way through their system to make them illegal there. How long that will take is anyone's guess.

My friends have been using their A frames in Europe for years now including Germany, but they always drive the toad when in Spain. Never had a problem yet, but I think even the cops are just as confused and don't need the hassle.
Phil

 

[Deleted member 29692]

What do Spanish fishing boats do with their grey water? This is the biggest issue.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

My friends have been using their A frames in Europe for years now including Germany, but they always drive the toad when in Spain. Never had a problem yet, but I think even the cops are just as confused and don't need the hassle.
Phil

There are lots of stories like that. Just because people have been getting away with it for years doesn't mean it's legal.

I think @big map might be able to give you a first hand account of what happens in Germany

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[PeteH]

From 1997 through to 2006 (ish) the Spanish Police rarely if ever looked at "A" framers. Around that time something happened which prompted a clampdown, those of us who had been doing it for years started to hear of others who where getting stopped, 2007/8 I was personally stopped twice, both times Sunday, both times by Guardia on Motorcycles. Each time I "got away" with it, on the last occasion I think because I stared to remove all the kit from the car into the R-V, It was obvious that I planned to abandon the vehicle, They waved me on with a "dont do it again" warning. It was after that we started R-V`ng in the USA, where they don`t have the stupidity of the Continent`s Politicians/Bureaucrats.

 

[gwyntaxi]

Naysayers you say..... Aww just ignore them it’s just not worth it trust me.

I have towed a wee car because without one going away is very hard with my wife’s disability. Even with a car it’s proving hard which is forcing us to sell up.

But we tried.... Now having towed all sorts from caravans to heavy trailers with diggers on and very large boats I can say from experience nothing is as stable as a car with a wheel at each corner. But it doesent matter one tiny bit if minds are closed and predjudices run so deep.

Just ignore. Enjoy your kit. Have a great time. And carry on A framing. Oh and be happy unlike some who are only happy spoiling others enjoyment.

A properly designed A frame is perfectly fine when bolted to the front of a vehicle. It is just as fine as having a similar device bolted to the rear called a tow bar. The device will actually strengthen the front of a car just like the ones we bolt to the rear.
This is not actually that hard to work out ...

My insurance company is absolutely happy with this set up again I point out I have it in writing.

One person above says Aframing should be banned. I would welcome a reasoned response as to why ?.

Gnight all.....
George Dixon again..

Hi there @Charlie, Totally agree with your post, however, could you possibly advise me who your insurance company is, that they are happy with your A-frame arrangements and will put it in writing, as I have been towing on an A-frame now for 3+years, and last week whilst towing my car on my (Towbars2towcars) A-frame, it burst into flames, no reason why, write off, now I am trying to get cover, no problem, until I mention A-frame, I ask for it to be specifically added to policy documents and they say they won't cover the A-frame cost,(around £2,300) fine, but if and when I have an incident and they see it's on an A-frame, they are saying it's a modification, that's a modification so your not covered, even though I tell them about it when asking for a quote, so at present my toad is parked up and I am struggling to get insurance cover from all the major insurers. I would be grateful for any help, an Insurance company name such as yours would be a great help, many thanks. gwyntaxi.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

Hi there @Charlie, Totally agree with your post, however, could you possibly advise me who your insurance company is, that they are happy with your A-frame arrangements and will put it in writing, as I have been towing on an A-frame now for 3+years, and last week whilst towing my car on my (Towbars2towcars) A-frame, it burst into flames, no reason why, write off, now I am trying to get cover, no problem, until I mention A-frame, I ask for it to be specifically added to policy documents and they say they won't cover the A-frame cost,(around £2,300) fine, but if and when I have an incident and they see it's on an A-frame, they are saying it's a modification, that's a modification so your not covered, even though I tell them about it when asking for a quote, so at present my toad is parked up and I am struggling to get insurance cover from all the major insurers. I would be grateful for any help, an Insurance company name such as yours would be a great help, many thanks. gwyntaxi.

@gwyntaxi , if you don’t mind me asking, had you been getting the biannual service at towbars2towcars and had the red indicator light on the dashboard been coming in in the tow vehicle? Have you reported it to towbars2 towcars and what did they say?

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[gwyntaxi]

Hi there Mr. Chrysalis, No I wasn't the original purchaser of the A-frame from T2T, It was a neighbour of ours, and he only kept his m/home for a short while and then sold it, so I bought the car of him complete with A-frame, I didn't realise there was an indicator light supposed to be on the dash not being the original purchaser, and was also not aware that they carried out a bi-annual service, sorry I cannot help you there, by the way as you have read my post to Charlie you will have read about the problems I'm having obtaining insurance for a car fitted with an A-frame who is your toad insured with and have they written it on the policy documents, if so I'd be grateful to know who will insure mine and give it to me in writing , the reason I ask this is my toad was recently a total loss write-off all the value of the T2T A-frame is in the bowels of the car so to speak,so come to payout time and you've lost all the electronic gubbins, if you get my drift because the insurers will ONLY pay out the market value of the car,and even that was nowhere near the value of it, trust me, I have just discovered this to my cost and now trying to get a quote for my replacement toad is proving almost impossible when asking for a quote,you tell them about the A-frame and they say yes that's fine but when you ask them to enter that on the insurance schedule or policy and they WILL NOT do it, SO IF THERE ARE ANY OTHER FUNSTERS OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP ME FIND AN INSURER/BROKER WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT AN A-FRAME ACTUALLY IS AND WHO ARE PREPARED TO PUT IT ON THE POLICY IN WRITING I WOULD BE GRATEFUL TO KNOW NAME OF THE INSURANCE CO. AS MY TOAD IS CURRENTLY PARKED UP WITHOUT INSURANCE, AND HAVING MOBILITY ISSUES I REALLY NEED MY TOAD, MANY THANKS FOR ANY HELP. gwyntaxi. TIA.

 

[The Dotties]

Would AIB help? They advertise on here and are funsters so they should have an understanding of toads.

 

[gwyntaxi]

My friends have been using their A frames in Europe for years now including Germany, but they always drive the toad when in Spain. Never had a problem yet, but I think even the cops are just as confused and don't need the hassle.
Phil

I met a german 2 winters ago staying on Mikki's place he was towing an old fiat punto on an A-frame and had been doing so for the past 11YEARS without any problem, when I questioned him about towing with the A-frame through Germany/Spain/Portugal, he said, "no problem I just show them my paperwork and they wave me on" the paperwork he showed me and it was similar to the interpretations we are issued with by the various companies, who fit the A-frames, in the various foreign languages, but maybe I should add that he was quite fluent, in most European languages as are most Germans/dutch people and I think herein lies the problem being as we don't have an inkling most if the time what they are saying to us, we have just have to accept the penalties they issue us with because we are not fluent enough to state our case at the roadside, I have found this to be the case on many occasions when speaking to our Dutch/German/French neighbours, one such example comes to mind, this winter we were parked behind Benidorm hospital, not on market day there was another British van and a Dutch van we were knocked up at 8am by a policia local motorcycle cop who said no camping, we were properly parked in a marked bay, so we didn't argue we just said okay we'll move, when we got out of the van he (cop)had stuck an orange notice on our door stating we were illegally parked, spoke to the other British van same thing exactly, spokje to the dutch couple, absolutely nothing didn't knock on their van or nothing, and like us had clearly been parked up for the night with all their curtains and blinds drawn, I think that says it all, us non multi-lingual Brits are an easy target for the likes of these cash strapped foreign police forces and they take every opportunity to take advantage of us.

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[gwyntaxi]

Would AIB help? They advertise on here and are funsters so they should have an understanding of toads.

Many thanks for your advice, fingers crossed I might get it sorted then.

 

[tacr2man]

I met a german 2 winters ago staying on Mikki's place he was towing an old fiat punto on an A-frame and had been doing so for the past 11YEARS without any problem, when I questioned him about towing with the A-frame through Germany/Spain/Portugal, he said, "no problem I just show them my paperwork and they wave me on" the paperwork he showed me and it was similar to the interpretations we are issued with by the various companies, who fit the A-frames, in the various foreign languages, but maybe I should add that he was quite fluent, in most European languages as are most Germans/dutch people and I think herein lies the problem being as we don't have an inkling most if the time what they are saying to us, we have just have to accept the penalties they issue us with because we are not fluent enough to state our case at the roadside, I have found this to be the case on many occasions when speaking to our Dutch/German/French neighbours, one such example comes to mind, this winter we were parked behind Benidorm hospital, not on market day there was another British van and a Dutch van we were knocked up at 8am by a policia local motorcycle cop who said no camping, we were properly parked in a marked bay, so we didn't argue we just said okay we'll move, when we got out of the van he (cop)had stuck an orange notice on our door stating we were illegally parked, spoke to the other British van same thing exactly, spokje to the dutch couple, absolutely nothing didn't knock on their van or nothing, and like us had clearly been parked up for the night with all their curtains and blinds drawn, I think that says it all, us non multi-lingual Brits are an easy target for the likes of these cash strapped foreign police forces and they take every opportunity to take advantage of us.

Couldnt possibly be down to "racism" . not everybody loves us

 

[Charlie]

Hi there @Charlie, Totally agree with your post, however, could you possibly advise me who your insurance company is, that they are happy with your A-frame arrangements and will put it in writing, as I have been towing on an A-frame now for 3+years, and last week whilst towing my car on my (Towbars2towcars) A-frame, it burst into flames, no reason why, write off, now I am trying to get cover, no problem, until I mention A-frame, I ask for it to be specifically added to policy documents and they say they won't cover the A-frame cost,(around £2,300) fine, but if and when I have an incident and they see it's on an A-frame, they are saying it's a modification, that's a modification so your not covered, even though I tell them about it when asking for a quote, so at present my toad is parked up and I am struggling to get insurance cover from all the major insurers. I would be grateful for any help, an Insurance company name such as yours would be a great help, many thanks. gwyntaxi.

LV.....

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[Mr Chrysalis]

Hi there Mr. Chrysalis, No I wasn't the original purchaser of the A-frame from T2T, It was a neighbour of ours, and he only kept his m/home for a short while and then sold it, so I bought the car of him complete with A-frame, I didn't realise there was an indicator light supposed to be on the dash not being the original purchaser, and was also not aware that they carried out a bi-annual service, sorry I cannot help you there, by the way as you have read my post to Charlie you will have read about the problems I'm having obtaining insurance for a car fitted with an A-frame who is your toad insured with and have they written it on the policy documents, if so I'd be grateful to know who will insure mine and give it to me in writing , the reason I ask this is my toad was recently a total loss write-off all the value of the T2T A-frame is in the bowels of the car so to speak,so come to payout time and you've lost all the electronic gubbins, if you get my drift because the insurers will ONLY pay out the market value of the car,and even that was nowhere near the value of it, trust me, I have just discovered this to my cost and now trying to get a quote for my replacement toad is proving almost impossible when asking for a quote,you tell them about the A-frame and they say yes that's fine but when you ask them to enter that on the insurance schedule or policy and they WILL NOT do it, SO IF THERE ARE ANY OTHER FUNSTERS OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP ME FIND AN INSURER/BROKER WHO UNDERSTANDS WHAT AN A-FRAME ACTUALLY IS AND WHO ARE PREPARED TO PUT IT ON THE POLICY IN WRITING I WOULD BE GRATEFUL TO KNOW NAME OF THE INSURANCE CO. AS MY TOAD IS CURRENTLY PARKED UP WITHOUT INSURANCE, AND HAVING MOBILITY ISSUES I REALLY NEED MY TOAD, MANY THANKS FOR ANY HELP. gwyntaxi. TIA.

My take on it is:
Most comprehensive car or Motorhome insurance policies cover trailers, but usually only for third party liability. This should apply for a car being used as a trailer (toad) or a car in a trailer in the same way as it does for a caravan. In other words, you would be covered for any injury to another person or damage to their property. However, your policy would not pay out if your own trailer or caravan or toad was damaged in an accident that was your fault. Third party cover also excludes theft and fire damage. You can take out separate insurance for your trailer or caravan. You would then be able to claim on your insurance if, for example, your caravan was stolen or damaged in a fire. But I don’t think you can do this for a toad. When you are using your car as a car, not a toad, then it would be covered in you car insurance. This also will not cover your car when it is being used as a toad. But I would expect the car cover to apply if the car was stolen or destroyed by fire. In your case, I think that the car insurance consider that the fire was caused by a fault as a result of being towed and therefore not their responsibility, and the Motorhome insurance only covers the trailer for third party. I think that you can get the car insured as a car , even with the A frame modification, provided that it does not change its performance. My car insurance company Admiral did not have a problem with me towing the car but did not write that down. They said it was not covered when being towed. They did not consider the A frame performance enhancing. My Motorhome insurers also said that the trailer ( even a Toad ) would only be covered third party. You might have had a claim against the supplier of the toad if you could show that they had supplied it with a fault. However they may claim that you were not using it correctly or had not followed their service advice. The T2T system includes the car, the A frame components including electronics etc fitted to the car, and some wiring in the Motorhome, including a warning light to warn you of a fault. As you did not get that part installed you may not have known when a fault occurred. Also there are different ways of wiring trailer sockets so this may have contributed. In your situation I would contact T2T and ask them if the A frame components, or your Motorhome wiring could have contributed to the fire. I don’t have any expertise but it seems likely that the red light may indicate, for example, brakes stuck on, which could start a fire. Sorry I’ve rambled on a bit, but hope some of this may help.

 

[Charlie]

In short.....

The toad is covered by its own insurance while being towed. Comprehensively if you have it third party if you have that.

The MH is covered by its own insurance.

Simple.

LV is our insurers and very very keenly priced.

They had Zero problems clarifying in writing that they understand EXACTLY what we are doing and are covering us for all risks.

We carry a copy of the clarification with us.

 

[Mr Chrysalis]

In short.....

The toad is covered by its own insurance while being towed. Comprehensively if you have it third party if you have that.

The MH is covered by its own insurance.

Simple.

LV is our insurers and very very keenly priced.

They had Zero problems clarifying in writing that they understand EXACTLY what we are doing and are covering us for all risks.

We carry a copy of the clarification with us.

That’s nice and simple. Are both car ( toad) and mitorhome with same company LV?

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[Charlie]

That’s nice and simple. Are both car ( toad) and mitorhome with same company LV?

Yes they are. But it would not make any difference.