A Frames legal (1 Viewer)

[Road Runner]

Caravan & Camping club book September page 54 states A frame's are legal trailer as long as braked and lights work iin the UK and other EU countries should allow them as legal in UK for UK residents.

If I read it right

 

[slobadoberbob]

it is all in the words

Caravan & Camping club book September page 54 states A frame's are legal trailer as long as braked and lights work iin the UK and other EU countries should allow them as legal in UK for UK residents.

If I read it right

If I recall we went over this old chestnut only a week or two ago? It is all in the words . BRAKED... what they do not deal with is the weight of the towed vehicle against the towing vehicle. Vehicle use and construction regs apply... more than happy to bring my Wilkinsons Road traffice Act books to Bath & West or Lincoln and discuss it with anyone who is interested. Very boring law. But when I see some of the vehilces being towed I have my doubts.

Boboh:

 

[Larrynwin]

Is this a new subject thread John

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[Road Runner]

Is this a new subject thread John

I know I know its well covered but another big group/publication saying its legal.

I got stopped on Motorway few months ago on regular inspection checking all vehicle classes so bikes lorries and so on.

Had my licence for few minute then said OK checked to toads lights them man from the ministry complimented me on the frame saying "thats a good bit of kit" was expecting the worst till then.

I suppose I was pulled as trailer board on so looking scruffy unit so lights now through car

Now don't tow the toad so much as dont want the stress again.

 

[Geo]

I concur with John, the CCC mag does indeed appear to support the legality of the A frame
Despite others comments, a legal test case is yet to be tried
Bob I'd be happy to spent and hr or two chatting over the laws with you
After a pint or two we may even agree:thumb:
Bring yer guns in case we dont
Bring em anyway I like looking at western replicas:thumb:
Geo

 

[slobadoberbob]

well I have one of the guns for sale

I concur with John, the CCC mag does indeed appear to support the legality of the A frame
Despite others comments, a legal test case is yet to be tried
Bob I'd be happy to spent and hr or two chatting over the laws with you
After a pint or two we may even agree:thumb:
Bring yer guns in case we dont
Bring em anyway I like looking at western replicas:thumb:
Geo

They are locked in the safe on the RV, so I will have them with me. I do have one of the guns for sale by the way... gun belt is a bit large (being a well built chap).. plus I have the 9 mm blanks as well. Let me know if you want to see them even if it is just to find out about them and see the weight of them (same as the real thing and yes in the USA I have fired the real things on a range). For those that did not see me at Malvern I was dressed in black with a Drifters long coat, black rodeo hat, stingray boot (note I said boot and not boots) bandana, string Smith & Western silver/gold tie and a fancy silver buckle (big one).. and of course a pair of guns in the belts... evil some say I looked... time to worry is when I smile But yes I will have them at Bath & West and Lincoln.. plus the law books if need be (need to know as they are heavy and take space up)... but happy to give an opinion as to the law as it stands now. (no I do not and have not done matrimonial work).

As you know I do not agree with a blanket statement in this post, the law is to fickle and it does come down to the police officer or VOSA inspector. I have spent a small fortune on my trailer meeting the UK and European regs, even double sets of lights (not a light board).and the correct size zig zag boards taking in to account how long the RV is with the disabled trailer even european speed limit signs. I love my money and do not spend it on that kind of work unless I have to .. But I would rather do that than get pulled.

Just my personal opinion tinted with the knowledge of my former line of work. .. I have argued many a traffic case in the magistrates court where the client thought he knew best or the law did not apply to him (or her) or they thought the regulations did not apply to them.

What do you call 5,000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea ??????? some would say a good start.:thumb:

Bob

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[2657]

As with all DFT,VOSA,DVLA information that I have seen there is always a disclaimer to the effect that the information is their interpretation of the regulations but the courts are the only body that can make definitive law.
VOSA now have powers to impose on the spot fines and have powers to impound or take vehicles off the road causing great financial hardship and inconvenience based on their INTERPRETATION of the regulations.
As far as vehicles legal in the UK being legal throughout the EU the powers that be have the same powers as VOSA, try arguing the finer points of EU regulations with an armed gendarme or guardia civil and see how far you get!
Who amongst us can afford to hire barristers and contest these interpretations in the high court, I think this is a ridiculous situation and the laws should be clarified.

 

[Simba]

If I recall we went over this old chestnut only a week or two ago? It is all in the words . BRAKED... what they do not deal with is the weight of the towed vehicle against the towing vehicle. Vehicle use and construction regs apply... more than happy to bring my Wilkinsons Road traffice Act books to Bath & West or Lincoln and discuss it with anyone who is interested. Very boring law. But when I see some of the vehilces being towed I have my doubts.

Boboh:

Hi Bob. If you are going to have some sort of discussion about this at Bath & West I would be interested.
Thanks
Bill.

 

[Wildman]

I should think a few of us would be interested in discussing it at Shepton.

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[hilldweller]

I should think a few of us would be interested in discussing it at Shepton.

Usually ends in a punch up on line, glad I'm not at Shepton.


PS - we are at a family wedding so may end up pretty similar.

 

[Wildman]

cheers Brian, must make sure to take body armour etc, hee hee

 

[Landy lover]

Hope Bob has got a big RV or that the weathers good because there will be a lot of people taking interest in this .

By the way Bob has already said that he is a big lad and that he has a couple of 45's so if it comes to a punch up I'm putting my money on Bob

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[aba]

just out of interest have any of you that tow on an a-frame actually sat in the toad whilst being towed???
i sat in a car on a frame and took mental notes as to how it steers and after a very sharp U bend decided that under no circumstances am i putting any car i own on an a-frame the stresses these put on a car can not be good for it or the rear of the motorhome.
if you imagine a single axle trailer and how it pivots on the axle this is how the car on a frame tries to turn but there is no pivot point in the middle so it drags the front one way and pushes the rear sideways on this non existent pivot point.

if you don't believe me take your toad to a local supermarket carpark and try a couple of sharp turns and watch or better still get someone else to drive the motorhome and sit in the toad.

trailer for me every time now it really opened my eyes

 

[imprint]

Hi Bob,

Since only old lawyers tell old legal jokes, how can you tell if a lawyer is lying?
See if his lips are moving...

 

[Geo]

just out of interest have any of you that tow on an a-frame actually sat in the toad whilst being towed???
i sat in a car on a frame and took mental notes as to how it steers and after a very sharp U bend decided that under no circumstances am i putting any car i own on an a-frame the stresses these put on a car can not be good for it or the rear of the motorhome.
if you imagine a single axle trailer and how it pivots on the axle this is how the car on a frame tries to turn but there is no pivot point in the middle so it drags the front one way and pushes the rear sideways on this non existent pivot point.

if you don't believe me take your toad to a local supermarket carpark and try a couple of sharp turns and watch or better still get someone else to drive the motorhome and sit in the toad.

trailer for me every time now it really opened my eyes

I understand exactly what your saying but only agree with a small portion of it

The cars suspension Tyres and steering behave exactly as they would when driven

The stresses imposed on the motor home are less than that of a 4 wheel caravan which no steering at all

I agree that the stresses imposed on the front of the toad by the A frame are unnatural. but the toad is reinforced or should be to cope

I suspect its this unatural force that is giving you the feeling of being dragged,take it from me there is little danger of damage being caused to any toad used as intended
Geo

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[Larrynwin]

No stress on my toad

 

[Geo]

No stress on my toad

No but his headlights want setting

 

[Larrynwin]

something wrong with image size will try again

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[Larrynwin]

Try the toad again

 

[Larrynwin]

Toads fine

 

[acting_strange]

Try the toad again

awwwwwwwwww he/she is pretty

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[slobadoberbob]

OK the the Wilkinson's Road Traffic Offences is loaded

I should think a few of us would be interested in discussing it at Shepton.

Both volumes which cover the subject are now loaded on the RV ready to go to Shepton.. I will also leave them on for Lincoln in case anyone who is not at Shepton wants a look or to discuss it. It has all the law and the construction regs.

I have now read the article in the CCC (came in the post late yesterday afternoon). It is worth noting that the Department of Transport (dft) cover there rear ends saying it is what we call in the trade a jury question i.e it is down to the courts to decided.. yea, but before it gets to court the Crown Prosecution Service (cps) and police / Vosa decide if they think they can win. So it is well on it's way by the time it gets to court. As 99% of these cases are heard in the magistrates court (only getting to the Crown Court on appeal by way of case stated (court has to show another case was allowed) it does not get before a judge. Magistrates courts (blue rinse and two pearls) by there very nature are police courts and my personal view is that they lean over backwards to support the police and CPS. Hence criminal lawyers earn a crust!!!!***&££!! :Blush:

The issues of how the toad reacts to being pulled I think are very valid and need to be considered also. But I am just dealing with the legal aspect of it here. The dft can only give an opinion, and as we can see that is hedged with the caviat of the courts decide. Any makers of these items or companies that sell them are only going to tell you the best bits and while the law allows a certain amount of salesmans 'Puff' (glossing it up) the salesman and the company would have a legal liability for selling an item that was illegal. Sale of Goods Act would apply re civil action and Misrepresentation Act (criminal).

You pay your money and take the risk. Me? I pull a trailer with the disabled scooter... now I wonder what would happen if I made that in to a toad? ... seriously it is one big grey area. You may get away with it in the UK for now, but I would put serious money on the risks in Europe.

If I was asked and I am not being asked (I am not creating a legal relationship) (small print) I would advise caution or go down the trailer road where you know there is no risk to your licence, pocket book or car.

Openning hours to be announced at Bath & West payment in any form of beer.:Blush: Peace will be kept by the use of the Colt 45.

Bob

 

[Road Runner]

Try the toad again

Do you need a pet passport when you tow your toad abroad?

 

[Douglas]

Some how, I can't see the GNR or the Guardia Civil taking any notice about what is legal in the UK.

Doug...

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[slobadoberbob]

have to ask defra

Do you need a pet passport when you tow your toad abroad?

Is a toad an animal or reptile? pet passports are for animals if I am right?

Bob (you see I can be silly as you when I want) - which is most of the time.

 

[Larrynwin]

Do you need a pet passport when you tow your toad abroad?

I dare not take him to France might be mistaken for a frog and some hungry bugger nicks his legs

 

[slobadoberbob]

very good.. made me smile

I dare not take him to France might be mistaken for a frog and some hungry bugger nicks his legs

Yes I like it, made me smile... idiot...:thumb:

Bob

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[chatter]

I have always found it safest to rely and act on the saying

'when in rome do as the romans do'

and i think that Spain and France certainly think you should abide by their laws, rules and regulations when driving in their countries.
After all we all carry the required hi viz vests,triangles,spare bulbs etc when we go over there and they are not yet law over here, not to mention those of us that comply with the new speed stickers (didnt we have them i the 70s over here - i seem to remember them (50) on a caravan) and the long vehicle signs now required for spain

 

[Peter JohnsCross MH]

Well I hope they are legal as I have two Toad Cars in stock.

One a Renault Modus is on a fully wired, stop lights, indicators and side lights with car braking and heavy duty type, other one is a Smart and that whilst fully wired for car lights, brakes, indicators and side lights does not have any auto car braking and is a lightweight.

Peter

 

[Dodgey]

Peter, re the Smart, no brake actuation?

One of the simple mistakes continually made, irrespective of law, is accepting in theory that the car when on an A frame and attached to the van/tow vehicle becomes a trailer therefore subject in theory again to trailer law is the buisness of 750kg or less trailers don't require brakes. This in principle is correct, BUT if you continue to read you get to the part that states, if brakes are fitted they must work. The Smart has brakes therefore regardless of weight the must work.

This is without getting into any of the rest of this well discussed discussion.

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