'A' Frames in Spain a Little More Information (1 Viewer)

[MicknPat]

Rather than add a further posting to the 6 page thread, Have YOU been stopped using YOUR A Frame see link below

Link Removed

I thought I would add the following information from a Google search.

Under the Spanish Highway code, the towing of motor vehicles is not permitted. However, a motor vehicle may be towed by another provided that the towed vehicle is on a trailer that complies with EU Directives 70/156/CEE and 94/20/CEE or is accredited to be in compliance with British Standards and provided that the length of the convoy does not exceed 18.75mts (16. 50 if the tractor vehicle is a semi trailer).

Now finding the above which I'm sure you will agree contains a lot of useful information was easy.

The difficult bit if you want a bit of a challenge is to type those EU Directives into Google and try and make a little sense of what you find

If you do copy EU Directives 70/156/CEE and 94/20/CEE into Google the first reply will be

Link Removed

GOOD LUCK:thumb:

mick

 

[vwalan]

not sure of the point here. i google either and get the dates of the directices and the directives .so what. the information isnt new . the directives were ammended in 1970 and 1994 .it quite plainly says that europe must harmonise the coupling system through out europe .it has 50mm ball. or 50mm pin (artic) the use of an aframe is is to convert a car into a trailer. it does that. just like the aframe on a caravan. the problem then moves to the brakes and we all know that trailers have to have brakes that allow you to reverse. what is the point of the post it tells me only what i already know and everybody else that follows the aframe debate.

 

[pappajohn]

i agree with mick.

a trailer serves one purpose and one purpose only......to transport goods whether personal or commercial.

if a car could become a true trailer then it would not need an MOT, Tax or insurance.
a trailer doesnt need 'em so why should a toad.

it becomes a motor vehicle being towed by a motor vehicle.

we all want to interpret the rules to our advantage but our interpretation isnt neccesarily the right one.

just my slant on it.:thumb:

And, after all, this is spain we're talking about....not the uk.

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[vwalan]

there is confusion with the meanings of this directive as in spain towing a car on a rope or chan ,pole is banned as it does not meet the directives . when you tow a trailer it is allowed. a towd is a trailer constucted by the the fixing of an aframe to a car .we may know and thinkits a car,but it isnt. just like the old mini van into a traler that we have all seen in the past.

 

[vwalan]

i think there is a good case to argue in couft tat a towd does not havegto be mot,tax orinsured seperately from the towing vehicle.when its atoad .the minute you removethe aframe it returns to a car .

 

[vwalan]

goods trailers weighing ove 1020kg unladen do need moting

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[scotjimland]

we all want to interpret the rules to our advantage but our interpretation isnt neccesarily the right one.

and Spanish plod makes his up as he goes along..

they are more interested in where their next bottle of plonk is coming from.. not EU directives

jim

 

[pappajohn]

goods trailers weighing ove 1020kg unladen do need moting

a conventional trailer, ie...williams, James etc, upto 3500kg does not need an mot and they are goods trailers and are the max you can tow with a heavy car.

myn 3500kg williams has an unladen weight of 650kg so unless its made of cast iron with solid wheels you aint going to find anything that can be towed on a C1 or B1 licence.

anything weighing over 1020kg unladen is going to be a commercial goods trailer and wont apply to most motorhomers.

 

[lebesset]

I thought I had heard everything ...a vehicle stops being a vehicle because it is being towed !!
by that logic a vehicle would stop being a vehicle because it is parked beside the road !

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[vwalan]

its all abit academic really .a van becomes a camper when it meets the criteria . a motor home can be made from a converted builders pickup. like i say i dont make the rules . but try to obey them. i know that a living van over 3,500kg is not test excempt but lots get away with it. its a strange world we live in . any way a parked venicle could also be called an obstruction of the highway. if parked on it. its the convertion by fitting the aframe ,think about it. i know its daf. but so are the rules
pappa yes you will find a trailer that needs moting and be c1+e licence .it can be b+e .remember ther is no weight limit on b+eonly the max train wt. b+e can be more than c1+e as there is a restriction 107 on c1+e.

 

[vwalan]

pappa where do you get that 3,5oo is the max you can tow behind a heavy car. you can tow more than that behinda motor car.have a look at definitions of vehicles in construction and use. thats where i get my info from.

 

[pappajohn]

there is confusion with the meanings of this directive as in spain towing a car on a rope or chan ,pole is banned as it does not meet the directives . when you tow a trailer it is allowed. a towd is a trailer constucted by the the fixing of an aframe to a car .we may know and thinkits a car,but it isnt. just like the old mini van into a traler that we have all seen in the past.

different thing altogether alan,

iv never seen a minivan trailer with the front end still attached.

the engine and front end were always removed to make a box trailer.

it had no means of self propulsion, could not be driven when unhitched and could not be classed as a car and couldnt be legally use today as the hitch download would by far exceed the car/towbar munufactures spec.

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[pappajohn]

pappa where do you get that 3,5oo is the max you can tow behind a heavy car. you can tow more than that behinda motor car.have a look at definitions of vehicles in construction and use. thats where i get my info from.

this is fun alan and could go on forever......



Vehicle Categories

The main non - LGV (unified) licence categories are:

Category A: Motor cycles (with or without a sidecar), including tricycles and mopeds.



Category B: Motor vehicles with:

• A maximum authorised mass (MAM) not over 3,500kg
• A maximum of 8 seats (not including the driver's seat)

Trailers being towed by vehicles in this category must either:

• Be not more than 750kg MAM - making a maximum authorised Train Weight of 4,250kg
• Have a MAM which does not: - exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle
• Have a MAM which does not: - Have a train weight exceeding 3,500kg

 

[vwalan]

the instructions for the general direction of traffic.08/v-74 do refer to the directives but dont mention any referance to any british rules.its all in the stuff momo posted last year. we do have a statement from the dept of transport saying that they believe a car fitted with an aframe becomes an single unit and needs to meet the tecnical requirements of a trailer. this is available on ukmotorhomes.net.... so they tell me its a trailer atleast thats how i read it. i try to follow the rules notmake up new ones. cheers alan
psi can never decide if any body told the guardia in spain that franco died in the 70,s perhaps one day they will wake up,

 

[kenspain]

I have tried now for a week to get an answer for some of you that are coming over towing an A frame and still no luck but on Saturday in Gandia I did see the police stop a Dutch Camper and it look like they were talking about the car and A frame. But as i said before they make the law up here as they go,

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[vwalan]

hi pappa thats category b what about b+e

 

[vwalan]

hi ken .i dont come over with an aframe but if i did i would show the stuff momo posted and argue. i used to use an unbraked aframe even in spain but always n still do carried a card from my garage and would say i was on a recovery. also you can show the paper work from caratow about the return of fines a few years ago. have fun give em stick. alan.

 

[kenspain]

The best thing i think is that you have any Paper work to show them in Spanish it might help try not to up set them by laying down the law and waving papers at them they can be a--- holes when they get upset

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[vwalan]

i normally have the aframe stuff in several languages ,momo,s stuff i first give it to them in english then say sorry and give them the spanish. hopefully they realise i understand what it says. i did have occasion to use it afew times last winter .i even let one guardia have a copy for his boss.he was ok. only once was i told not to stay. i had been there a week. the secret is put all your chairs away when you see them coming. we shall see what happens this year, it changes some years better than others .i know one place where if i park on the outskirts they tell me to park outside the guardia houses right on the sea front .thats at playa de mamola near motril. who knows might be different this year. cheers alan.

 

[tacr2man]

I have always understood that under EU rules , what is legal in a member country has to be accepted in other member states , eg red and white projected load plates allowed in UK but not a UK promulgated item .
Mind you a lot of people try to get round UK requirements for trailers eg brakes over 750 kg . If you are not legal in your home registration country you certainly are not in another member state.

 

[vwalan]

tacr2man .we can use an aframe without brakes if its for recovery , we can also use dollies but there is speed limits alot less tham most adear to.

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[tacr2man]

I agree recovery , i.e. broken down vehicle , not just to convert a perfectly usable car to a trailer . There are as you would most likely know a lot of exemptions only applicable to recovery vehicles.

 

[vwalan]

i wouldnt encourage anyone to use an unbraked one for anything else. i always try to follow the rules to the letter, start by looking at excemptions then look at the rules.ha ha alan.

 

[MicknPat]

Will this system impress the Spanish Police?

We bought our RV and Jeep toad in the USA and had installed a Roadmaster Falcon 'A' frame.

Also installed was a Roadmaster Brakemaster system which is operated by the RVs air brakes directly to the foot brake pedal, this is a truly proportional, truly synchronized braking system — however you brake the motor home, BrakeMaster automatically applies the same pressure to the toad vehicle.

The system also incorporates a backup system of a compressed canister that if toad and RV become separated a steel cord deploys the canister which operates the foot brake.

All can be seen here Roadmaster Inc. - Tow Bars, Braking Systems & RV Accessories



Mick

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[pappajohn]

Will this system impress the Spanish Police?

We bought our RV and Jeep toad in the USA and had installed a Roadmaster Falcon 'A' frame.

Also installed was a Roadmaster Brakemaster system which is operated by the RVs air brakes directly to the foot brake pedal, this is a truly proportional, truly synchronized braking system — however you brake the motor home, BrakeMaster automatically applies the same pressure to the toad vehicle.

The system also incorporates a backup system of a compressed canister that if toad and RV become separated a steel cord deploys the canister which operates the foot brake.

All can be seen here Roadmaster Inc. - Tow Bars, Braking Systems & RV Accessories



Mick

i doubt it if they're feeling that way out. :Sad:

 

[vwalan]

h micknpat , what can we say?gather asmuch info as you can print it afew times keep it in a folder ready. there are several ways to work the brakes you can use air ,vacum,cables electric,its endless .i knowlynton who made my trailer have used lots of different ways to operate the brakes. remember most mini articsdont come with factorty air brakes. also intertrade on their braked aframe use a normal braked hitch that is connected to the pedal and is cable or hydrolic operated . but in spain ,well hope you get a nice policeman. or be prepared to fight in court. i no longer use anaframe because i use the 5er but would stand up for the rights to use one .i carry lots of info just in case a fellow traveller is having problems. i would and have been prepared to fight injustice by the authorities and have spent several hours in spanish and moroccan police stations discussing problems. so hope you have a trouble free holiday.
good morning john have you looked up b+e yet?never got a reply yesterday.could makemini into a5er then hitch wt would be ok.ha ha .
cheers alan.

 

[pappajohn]

h micknpat , what can we say?gather asmuch info as you can print it afew times keep it in a folder ready. there are several ways to work the brakes you can use air ,vacum,cables electric,its endless .i knowlynton who made my trailer have used lots of different ways to operate the brakes. remember most mini articsdont come with factorty air brakes. also intertrade on their braked aframe use a normal braked hitch that is connected to the pedal and is cable or hydrolic operated . but in spain ,well hope you get a nice policeman. or be prepared to fight in court. i no longer use anaframe because i use the 5er but would stand up for the rights to use one .i carry lots of info just in case a fellow traveller is having problems. i would and have been prepared to fight injustice by the authorities and have spent several hours in spanish and moroccan police stations discussing problems. so hope you have a trouble free holiday.
good morning john have you looked up b+e yet?never got a reply yesterday.could makemini into a5er then hitch wt would be ok.ha ha .
cheers alan.

morning alan,

mini body 5er could be a little on the small side though.

i realised my post was only for B licence after i posted it.oh:but how many people would have bothered with the B+E licence when most only use a small garden type trailer anyway.

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[vwalan]

if your livence is pre 97you have b+e.this allows you to have a really big trailer. i keep saying an iveco chassis cab artic weighs 2,000kg can have 1,500kg wt on the bed and still pull 5,200kg. on a b+e licence. yet the c1+e restricts you to 8,250kg, and lets you drive a vehicle over 3,5ookg. laws are funny.

 

[pappajohn]

if your livence is pre 97you have b+e.this allows you to have a really big trailer. i keep saying an iveco chassis cab artic weighs 2,000kg can have 1,500kg wt on the bed and still pull 5,200kg. on a b+e licence. yet the c1+e restricts you to 8,250kg, and lets you drive a vehicle over 3,5ookg. laws are funny.

especially when a pre '97 licence has both catagories anyway.oh:

just checked mine.

 

[vwalan]

its daft really .7.5ton can pull750kg. uto3,5 can pull any wt trailer as long as it doesnt exceed train wt of unit. the iveco i mention pulls over 3 times its own unladen wt. yet the cc recomended is 85 percent of unladen wt of tow unit. who is right?
did you see the letter from dft on aframes to trailer ?
they call it a trailer ,i only follow the masters instructions,ha ha.

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