A frame ...not happy at all (1 Viewer)

[tonyidle]

Don't agree had loads fail just with a small amount of pressure on them. They won't break but the ratchet grip gives way.
In they days when you could only buy only branded ones they were a lot better nowadays mostly cheap Chinese crap.
IMO opinion a totally bodged job, cable ties are cables why else would they call them cable ties.

For the same reason they call Duct (Duck) tape Duct (Duck) tape. They started life as such but more uses have been found. Agree about the cheapos though - just look for nylon or a brand name.

 

[cookie]

I was going by the pics you posted , not being telepathic I was unable to ascertain that the contact between a drive shaft and a bowden cable was occurring as you stated. My subsequent remarks were all based on what you posted . There was nothing in the pics that was life threatening . The danger level in the final pic is a matter of judgement , same as using an A frame in the first place, as some would say .

If it wasn't obvious in my first pics what was wrong would it have been hard to ask for me to provide a better picture.
It seems to me that even if the cable snapped or seized caused an accident and I then stuck the offending part in front of you that you would still find something wrong with what I've said.

Fact is cable has been put over the drive shaft which should never have happened it should have been routed underneath negating the need to use flimsy cable ties to support it.
The whole installation under closer inspection now looks shoddy and if there's a way to take this further legally I will.
The company even said last night that perhaps they should have used a longer cable.and sending a fitter 80 odd miles shows they are worried about it failing.
Luckily I found this. someone else may not have done and consequences could have serious.
In hindsight if I'd known about or seen the standard of this work I probably would have steered well clear.
Although there have been posts about AFRAMES I don't believe any of yet have been found to be as unsafe as this.

 

[tacr2man]

If it wasn't obvious in my first pics what was wrong would it have been hard to ask for me to provide a better picture.
It seems to me that even if the cable snapped or seized caused an accident and I then stuck the offending part in front of you that you would still find something wrong with what I've said.

Fact is cable has been put over the drive shaft which should never have happened it should have been routed underneath negating the need to use flimsy cable ties to support it.
The whole installation under closer inspection now looks shoddy and if there's a way to take this further legally I will.
The company even said last night that perhaps they should have used a longer cable.and sending a fitter 80 odd miles shows they are worried about it failing.
Luckily I found this. someone else may not have done and consequences could have serious.
In hindsight if I'd known about or seen the standard of this work I probably would have steered well clear.
Although there have been posts about AFRAMES I don't believe any of yet have been found to be as unsafe as this.

It is not an obligation to be put on me to take things other than as posted . I was not trying to find fault with you , and was trying to be constructive and reassure you with what appeared to be in view of the pics posted , a judgement driven by a lack of knowledge of automotive components ,that was obviously causing you upset, that wasn't justified by what you showed, at the level expressed. In view of the paranoia you seem to have regarding
my attempt to help I will note not to in future and hope this helps assuage your anger

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[Geo]

For what its worth
In my opinion too the first two large pictures show only an Anti Roll bar with the brake cable resting on it NOT a drive shaft.
Your description suggested a "Flat Spot" again confusing because it now appears that the outer and metal inner are worn through.
Your confusing description of "Brake Pipe" as opposed power steering pipes also indicated a limited mechanical knowledge
If @tacr2man had not already offered good advise given what the pics posted appeared to show, I too may have made similar comments to try and put your mind at ease
seeing the third pic a blind man using Braille would have got it right.
If you would like better advise, make sure any pics match your description
your reply would have been better starting with " Sorry for the confusion here's a better pic"
By the way I also think that some very minor basic engineering skills were overlooked on your installation
It's what happens when an Apprentice is let loose with a drill and his imagination

 

[Lisa]

Well, speaking from experience of having a shoddy a frame fitting I can totally understand your concerns.
We raised concerns with the company that fitted ours originally, and were told that the cable was fine.
Clearly it wasn’t, as the brakes locked on and caught fire!
We’ve put a review up for Towtal and TAF
Good luck, hope you get sorted soon.

 

[eddie]

Although there have been posts about AFRAMES I don't believe any of yet have been found to be as unsafe as this.

Well they are all illegal anyway!

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[cookie]

First pic is of how bad cable was on removal
Second is where it had been catching on bottom pulley.
Guy sent out has only worked for them 2 months and me and the farm chap who is an engineer had to help him decide what to do .

The whole thing now looks terrible and may be safe for a while.
It's not very good when their guy asks you if you think it's ok.
When we get home I'm asking them to take the car in and redo the whole lot and replace the a frame for the newer one they now supply .
In all honesty looking at a caratow one and this one. Mine is a bag of crap. I regret shopping around for cheapest price

 

[cookie]

Well, speaking from experience of having a shoddy a frame fitting I can totally understand your concerns.
We raised concerns with the company that fitted ours originally, and were told that the cable was fine.
Clearly it wasn’t, as the brakes locked on and caught fire!
We’ve put a review up for Towtal and TAF
Good luck, hope you get sorted soon.

Oh sh@t same company

 

[Charlie]

The Bowden cable should have been secured with proper metal clips to something solid like a bit of the metal bodywork. No way cable ties should ever have been used.

Sadly, this example reinforces why A Frames are highly questionable because companies are doing things completely unregulated without following the sort of standards the vehicle manufacturers have to follow.

An A frame is no more questionable than any other component in the automotive train that has been fitted badly or bodged...

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[olley]

For what its worth
In my opinion too the first two large pictures show only an Anti Roll bar with the brake cable resting on it NOT a drive shaft.
Your description suggested a "Flat Spot" again confusing because it now appears that the outer and metal inner are worn through.
Your confusing description of "Brake Pipe" as opposed power steering pipes also indicated a limited mechanical knowledge
If @tacr2man had not already offered good advise given what the pics posted appeared to show, I too may have made similar comments to try and put your mind at ease
seeing the third pic a blind man using Braille would have got it right.
If you would like better advise, make sure any pics match your description
your reply would have been better starting with " Sorry for the confusion here's a better pic"
By the way I also think that some very minor basic engineering skills were overlooked on your installation
It's what happens when an Apprentice is let loose with a drill and his imagination

Apprentice geo? you will be doing very well to get an apprentice. Who trains them anymore?

 

[cookie]

It is not an obligation to be put on me to take things other than as posted . I was not trying to find fault with you , and was trying to be constructive and reassure you with what appeared to be in view of the pics posted , a judgement driven by a lack of knowledge of automotive components ,that was obviously causing you upset, that wasn't justified by what you showed, at the level expressed. In view of the paranoia you seem to have regarding
my attempt to help I will note not to in future and hope this helps assuage your anger

No anger here just ally disappointed that if pictures don't match description no one asked why before trying to pile in all guns blazing as if I'm an idiot. When my intentions were to possibly save someone else the same stress we have had with this and possibly save someone being in a dangerous situation.
Makes one wonder why bother.

 

[cookie]

For what its worth
In my opinion too the first two large pictures show only an Anti Roll bar with the brake cable resting on it NOT a drive shaft.
Your description suggested a "Flat Spot" again confusing because it now appears that the outer and metal inner are worn through.
Your confusing description of "Brake Pipe" as opposed power steering pipes also indicated a limited mechanical knowledge
If @tacr2man had not already offered good advise given what the pics posted appeared to show, I too may have made similar comments to try and put your mind at ease
seeing the third pic a blind man using Braille would have got it right.
If you would like better advise, make sure any pics match your description
your reply would have been better starting with " Sorry for the confusion here's a better pic"
By the way I also think that some very minor basic engineering skills were overlooked on your installation
It's what happens when an Apprentice is let loose with a drill and his imagination

OR sorry for jumping in. your picture doesn't show what you are describing Are you sure it's what you think it is please post another picture as the first ones not clear.
Admit they are air con pipes but seeing red I put brake pipes.
Yet again I will say folks are too eager to criticise or jump in with both feet.
Try to help and it's like I'm the bad guy.

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[gus-lopez]

An A frame is no more questionable than any other component in the automotive train that has been fitted badly or bodged...

But if original they are covered by the CoC, whereas anA frame and it's modifications never will be.

 

[Teuchter]

OR sorry for jumping in. your picture doesn't show what you are describing Are you sure it's what you think it is please post another picture as the first ones not clear.
Admit they are air con pipes but seeing red I put brake pipes.
Yet again I will say folks are too eager to criticise or jump in with both feet.
Try to help and it's like I'm the bad guy.

I understand your frustration - there seems to be a lot of "gut reaction criticism" on the site lately

However IMO in this case the criticism was not too intence - I must confess that your 1st pics puzzled me too

 

[DBK]

An A frame is no more questionable than any other component in the automotive train that has been fitted badly or bodged...

Of course repairs can always be bodged but to me an A Frame is closer to a vehicle than a repair. In the old days you couldn't register a kit car without it being inspected but I think now all you do is send in some photos and a list of the components used. Trailers seem a bit of a grey area and I suspect this is where A Frames fit in. They are not registered individually so anyone can make a trailer without it meeting any specifications other than lighting and brakes if required by the weight.

I wasn't criticising A Frames, just a system where poorly put together ones are allowed to be sold.

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[bigtwin]

Is the company even registered as an ISO, have an accredited Chartered Engineer status, or a bunch of cowboys as the pictures dictate.

It’s not clear to me why you ask about (or expect?) Chartered Engineers in the context of a fitter/mechanic (best case) or bodger (worst case) displaying abysmal levels of workmanship!

Ian

 

[cornish boy]

OR sorry for jumping in. your picture doesn't show what you are describing Are you sure it's what you think it is please post another picture as the first ones not clear.
Admit they are air con pipes but seeing red I put brake pipes.
Yet again I will say folks are too eager to criticise or jump in with both feet.
Try to help and it's like I'm the bad guy.

It took me a a few seconds to see the drive shaft in the original photos but the contact point with the cable is unfortunately behind the earth strap.

However, it is there!

 

[Charlie]

How about tow bars.... Are they inspected after fitting ??? Or those devices to stop caravans from wagging the cars into the ditches. I mean let’s face it caravans are an epic fail design and use wise when devices have to or usually are fitted to try and stop them becoming ridiculously unstable.

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[Geo]

Apprentice geo? you will be doing very well to get an apprentice. Who trains them anymore?

Problem is they come in all shapes and sizes

 

[tonyidle]

How about tow bars.... Are they inspected after fitting ??? Or those devices to stop caravans from wagging the cars into the ditches. I mean let’s face it caravans are an epic fail design and use wise when devices have to or usually are fitted to try and stop them becoming ridiculously unstable.

You're right - a car & trailer is not a stable combination and once the trailer weight approaches that of the car at some speed sway will start. Caravans in particular are also affected by height & aerodynamics. Things have improved over the years though. Tow bars are subject type-approval & use OEM mounting points. They're part of the MoT. Caravans without exception have stabilisers built in to the hitch and most recently up-market vans have electronic stabilisation that operates the van brakes to reduce excess sway once it's detected.

 

[125BEER]

OR sorry for jumping in. your picture doesn't show what you are describing Are you sure it's what you think it is please post another picture as the first ones not clear.
Admit they are air con pipes but seeing red I put brake pipes.
Yet again I will say folks are too eager to criticise or jump in with both feet.
Try to help and it's like I'm the bad guy.

I would just like to say thank you for bringing this issue to light.
I will do some research before I decide to fit an A frame.If you think it's not safe to use then don' use it.Once again thanks for topic.

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[SuperMike]

Apprentice geo? you will be doing very well to get an apprentice. Who trains them anymore?

Rolls Royce old OilyFellow. No.2 son finished last year. One of the things he had to do at his induction was to file a one inch square hole and file and fit it with a one inch square peg all to tolerance. Inches, that shows you how old this test was. They now employ him on more money than I ever earned. Quality engineering.

 

[olley]

Excellent Mike, but how many other firms do the same?

 

[cornish boy]

Rolls Royce old OilyFellow. No.2 son finished last year. One of the things he had to do at his induction was to file a one inch square hole and file and fit it with a one inch square peg all to tolerance. Inches, that shows you how old this test was. They now employ him on more money than I ever earned. Quality engineering.

Up until I took voluntary redundancy two years ago, I ran an engineering Apprentice programme for 11 years for a local company with 50 new apprentices joining each year on a three/four year Apprenticeship programme. Starting salary for a 16 year old was £12k, finishing up with £29k at 3 years or £32k at the end of 4 years.
All Apprentices finished, qualified with experience, as either mechanical engineers, electrical engineers or electronic engineers and well on their way to becoming chartered members of the IET or IMECHE and almost all would be sponsored to complete a degree.

I find it frustrating that people only ever hear (and moan) about the lack of skills in the UK and rarely do people publicly recognise the efforts of the 1000's of companies who are working hard (and spending large sums of their cashflow) to do something about it...

Thread drift I know but something I feel strongly about.

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[olley]

These apprentices wouldn't end up on the tools by the sound of it Cornish boy.
It's plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, welders, bricklayers etc. We just rely on cheap labour from abroad, or 5 minute wonders trained on some government course. I have worked with them, in the main they are crap.

 

[Spriddler]

Mine is a bag of crap. I regret shopping around for cheapest price

I think that just about sums it up.

 

[cornish boy]

These apprentices wouldn't end up on the tools by the sound of it Cornish boy.
It's plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, welders, bricklayers etc. We just rely on cheap labour from abroad, or 5 minute wonders trained on some government course. I have worked with them, in the main they are crap.

It was a craft apprenticeship.
All were trained to be on the tools (machinists, electricians, C&I, mechanical fitters) and all guarenteed employment within the company as crafts people at the end of their apprenticeship.
Being a forward thinking company, it recognised that there was a shortage across the board in skills and invested heavily to encourage people to stay and play a part in the ongoing succession plan to become the managers of the future. Over 50% of the senior management were former apprentices within the organisation.

Of course everyone is absolutely free to be negative about the craft training programmes currently available but my challenge would be, so what have those so quick to criticise personally done to make a difference?

I have worked with them, in the main they are crap.

And I have worked with some 'time served apprentices' trained the so-called 'proper way' back in the 60's and 70's and to be honest, I wouldn't trust them, wouldn't employ them and wouldn't want them working on my belongings.

I have also worked with an number of people trained on the old YTS programme who are very successful, well respected and talented electricians , mechanical fitters and welders working within highly regulated industries who are recognised as being subject matter experts in their field.

We can always see what we want to see if we look hard enough.....

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[olley]

I speak as I find, and I didn't need to look to hard on building sites.
Couple of English, agency so called plumbers, they did some course or other to call themselves plumbers. Soil stack comes out of the roof at 45 degrees to the vertical, that's alright they say you can't see it from the ground. they put a load of pipework in with press fittings, we test it, they hadn't squeezed half of them. They didn't last long.

Same job Electricians, local firm, all time served, lovely work, cables all clipped in straight lines, sockets horizontal and level with each other.

It's training, sounds like you trained properly, excellent, many don't. I used to do work for a retired bank manageress, she used to teach the bank exam, she told me she always started a new course the same. You want to pass, I will get you through no matter how long it takes, you don't, get out now.

You can teach anybody if they want to listen.

 

[cornish boy]

Soil stack comes out of the roof at 45 degrees to the vertical, that's alright they say you can't see it from the ground.

I always used to tell the apprentices - "you need the same number of holes to install something straight as you do to chuck it up pissed. The only difference between the two options is how much you care about what people think about you when they see it"

You can teach anybody if they want to listen.

Bang on.

 

[Deleted member 29692]

Shoddy shoddy workmanship. Is the company even registered as an ISO, have an accredited Chartered Engineer status, or a bunch of cowboys as the pictures dictate

To be fair ISO registration is more about management systems than quality and very few, if any, small engineering companies regardless of the field feel the need to employ chartered engineers. Again someone in the office with the right letters after their name is not an indication of quality.

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